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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1522363 - 05/05/03 04:03 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is this large corporation forcibly preventing people from obtaining water from other sources than the corporation? If so, that corporation is acting illegally and the government must intervene.
You have already stated the government has no power but to law enforcement and defence. Buying water companies and ramping the price up is perfectly legal. Are you now wishing to give the government control over this?
I have always said that there MUST be government.
But only for law enforcement and defence. I repeat, in these situations power will be exercised by those with the money to buy it.
No, I am not saying such a thing
What are you saying?
They are initiating physical force by using my property for their own purposes against my will.
Sorry, but with an argument like that you wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. Even if you won such a case they would simply stop dumping in your garden and dump just outside your garden. Your house would be impossible to sell either way.
When you hand all power except "law enforcement and defence" away to those with the money to buy it you have to content yourself to slavery.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1522397 - 05/05/03 04:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Since only physical force (and by extension, fraud) can prevent a human from acting as he sees fit, it is only the initiation of physical force by humans against other humans which need be addressed.
What exactly do you mean by this? What physical force would a corporation use in buying up all the water companies and forcing the price up 2-300%?
What physical force is involved in dumping oil and industrial waste wherever you want?
What physical force is involved in dumping radioactive waste wherever you want?
The list is endless.
Physical force is the least of our worries. A punch in the face or radioactive waste dumped near your town? Which would you prefer?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1522407 - 05/05/03 04:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Buying water companies and ramping the price up is perfectly legal. Are you now wishing to give the government control over this?
pinksharkmark:"Is this large corporation forcibly preventing people from obtaining water from other sources than the corporation?"
there's your answer.
I repeat, in these situations power will be exercised by those with the money to buy it.
by power, we're talking about the ability to succesfully employ force. in a system where the only thing the government does is defend individuals from force or fraud, how does one buy power?
Sorry, but with an argument like that you wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. Even if you won such a case they would simply stop dumping in your garden and dump just outside your garden. Your house would be impossible to sell either way.
it's pretty simple. a group of people illegally victimized you, so they owe you just compensation.
When you hand all power except "law enforcement and defence" away to those with the money to buy it you have to content yourself to slavery.
how does restricting the government to the single purpose of defending individuals from force or fraud "hand all power except 'law enforcement and defence' away to those with the money to buy it"?
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1522423 - 05/05/03 04:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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What exactly do you mean by this? What physical force would a corporation use in buying up all the water companies and forcing the price up 2-300%?
none at all. this is why this isn't an example of use of force. do you know what rain is?
What physical force is involved in dumping oil and industrial waste wherever you want?
What physical force is involved in dumping radioactive waste wherever you want?
if you dump it on someone else's land without their consent, this is an initiation of force and a violation of their rights. in such a situation, the offending party would be held accountable.
Physical force is the least of our worries. A punch in the face or radioactive waste dumped near your town? Which would you prefer?
if just one person who didn't consent to the dump is hurt by the radioactive waste, the dump was an initiation of force.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1522433 - 05/05/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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do you know what rain is?

if you dump it on someone else's land without their consent
No need to dump it on anyones land - buy the land yourself and dump it there. If it happens to be near your town, tough.
if just one person who didn't consent to the dump is hurt by the radioactive waste, the dump was an initiation of force.
Physical force?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1522472 - 05/05/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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the only problem i see with this is that some things (natural resources) rightfully belong to everyone. if the members of this board suddenly found ourselves stranded on a deserted island, wouldn't the land there belong to each and every one of us? would it even 'belong' to any of us? wouldn't the first person to stake his claim on a piece of land be stealing from the group? maybe there should be some kind of compensation that must be payed for the extraction of raw natural resources from the earth or something... i don't know...
Edited by mushmaster (05/05/03 04:42 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
#1522548 - 05/05/03 05:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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i consider poisoning someone to be an initiation of force.
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JohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1522729 - 05/05/03 06:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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If high-school graudates thought more about college and less about having some kids and raising them in a trailer park, maybe we'd be a bit better off. To be honest, with such a HUGE surplus of people on the earth, and the HUGE environmental sideeffects of that, I think that if people can't support themselves... well... thinning of the herd. who would miss all of the welfare bums? Answer.. NOONE  Jr
-------------------- As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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I do not believe we are overpopulated as a planet. Some places are overcrowded, but we have plenty of room for plenty of people.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Quote:
If high-school graudates thought more about college and less about having some kids and raising them in a trailer park, maybe we'd be a bit better off.
If you saw some of the more poor, run-down public High Schools, you'd see how the people who go there are by and large much less prepared for College than High Schools in more affluent areas. It's a system that keeps poor people in their place.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1522765 - 05/05/03 06:23 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is why I am all for the voucher system.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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"To be honest, with such a HUGE surplus of people on the earth, and the HUGE environmental sideeffects of that, I think that if people can't support themselves... well... thinning of the herd. who would miss all of the welfare bums? Answer.. NOONE"
you know, it's statements like that which make people think the anti-welfare argument is cruel and lacking compassion. it's not a good thing that some people are poor. it's no good that some people starve. it's a shame.
but it's no excuse for theft, especially not at the hands of the organization which is supposed to be protecting us.
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1522778 - 05/05/03 06:27 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is why I am all for the voucher system. i'm not. why should my income be robbed from me to pay for someone else's tuition (even my own for that matter)?
Edited by mushmaster (05/05/03 06:31 PM)
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1522780 - 05/05/03 06:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
That is why I am all for the voucher system.
me too.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1522781 - 05/05/03 06:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am with you on that, but I think it is at least a step in the right direction. Ultimately I am undecided on what should be done with education.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 2 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1522908 - 05/05/03 07:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I just dont think thats feasible at all. Where do you find jobs out in the country? Relocation would never be accepted among the people. Also i dont think houses would stay cheap for very long if people were living there. It seems like it would just create ghettos in the country, where law is thin and and public services couldnt acomodate.
There are plenty of jobs in rural areas. Moreso than in many urban areas. There is also alot more rural area than urban. Plenty of room for everyone.
Some areas of the country are just more economically depressed than others. If you can't afford to live where you live, then go live somewhere within your budget.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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falcon


Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,005
Last seen: 2 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1523312 - 05/05/03 09:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
That's it, that's all -- cops, courts, and military. Anything else -- and I mean ANYTHING else -- that government involves itself in is an abrogation of power to which it is not entitled. It follows than any revenue the government collects to fund anything other than cops, courts, and military is stolen revenue.
No public roads? Public schools? No state, national, county, community parks? No fire department? Sewage? FDA? No patent office? No FCC? No NASA? Health department? No national currency?
I think the institutions you have outlined as essential would grow to fill the functions of the institutions that you think are an abrogation of power by expanding the definition of public safety. You know the cops are going to get tired of running an ambulance service on private toll roads.
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JohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: falcon]
#1523373 - 05/05/03 10:10 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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It is a shame that people starve in America, or anywhere in the world. I believe a two-front "war" must be waged on hunger. First, a program of "work for the government" would be initiated so that welfare recipients can become actual employees of the government. They are already recieving money and medical coverage from the state, why not have them work some? Their are numerous things we could get these welfare recipients to do (shoveling snow for elderly people, roadside cleanup, babysitting OTHER welfare recipients children so their parents can look for a job / attend school). It wouldn't really matter what they did, we could have them building public parks for people to enjoy, we might as well get SOME return on our giving they monthly stipends and medical assistance.
Secondly, we need to engage in a humane form of population control. I think the best method of this is voluntary contraception. With contraception and E D U C A T I O N, we can, hopefully, tied the huge wave of numbers of humans. This trimming of the surplus (in an ethical way) would deal with the cause of human hunger.
Just some thoughts while i'm really stoned Hope ya enjoy, and I hope I'm on-topic somewhat 
JR
-------------------- As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: falcon]
#1523442 - 05/05/03 11:03 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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No public roads?No fire department? Sewage? Health department?
utilities, infrastructure, healthcare, fire\rescue, and education are all things which can and should be left to the private sector.
FDA?
this one there is a case for. selling dangerous or ineffective drugs falls under the force\fraud idea.
No patent office?
i think it's ok for the government to handle copyrights and patents. it prevents the 'theft' of inventions or intellectual property.
No FCC?
no, no FCC.
No NASA?
no NASA either.
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1523507 - 05/05/03 11:36 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wow. I really wanted to talk about welfare alternatives, but instead we ended up on the government's role in life. Your point of view, mush, is so extreme its impossible to even visualize, but i must admit it is interesting to hear what you have to say and youre not being uncivil about it so im really enjoying reading this. I must admit simply though, that I enjoy what the government provides for me and i have no problem paying my dues also. I enjoy the fact that i dont have to worry about protecting my property or checking the cleanliness of my water or the quality of my meat so that i may focus on other aspects of my life. In the case of most people it leads to nothing, but overall i believe allowing the government to control certain aspects of life allow citizens greatly succeed in other, much more important things. Like research and technology. Making everything private would also lead to larger gaps between classes and in my opinion that is not what i want to see happen. Whether they do or not i believe everyone who is part of this country should be given the chance to succeed whether it be only public education or full welfare payments.
Edited by CultyVader (05/05/03 11:37 PM)
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