Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1523545 - 05/05/03 11:57 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

utilities, infrastructure, healthcare, fire\rescue, and education are all things which can and should be left to the private sector.

And if there's no profit in providing health-care etc for the poor?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1523550 - 05/06/03 12:00 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Then the "poor" will have to rely on nonprofit/religious orginizations to help them out. That or plan for the future and get insurance.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1523576 - 05/06/03 12:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Is this large corporation forcibly preventing people from obtaining water from other sources than the corporation?" there's your answer

This is a joke right?

er...what if you live in a place where it doesn't rain very often?

it's pretty simple. a group of people illegally victimized you, so they owe you just compensation.

So now we're moving on from "physical force" to protecting you from being "illegally victimised". Sorry, but which is it to be? The corporation hasn't laid a finger on you. Absolutely no physical force. You might live your entire life in perfect health and your grandson die at 25 from leukemia. Are you seriously going to go to court and say "My grandson had physical force committed on him...by a corporate director who wasn't even alive when he was born..."

It's not going to work is it. You seem to be desperately trying to avoid this but Pink stated quite clearly "PHYSICAL FORCE".

how does restricting the government to the single purpose of defending individuals from force or fraud "hand all power except 'law enforcement and defence' away to those with the money to buy it"?

By removing all possibility of control on people with lots of money. What if business got together and said "We're tired of the minimum wage, we want slave labour". What do you do then?

Stop working and move to another country where it rains a lot and there's a minimum wage i suppose... :grin:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
    #1523583 - 05/06/03 12:11 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Then the "poor" will have to rely on nonprofit/religious orginizations to help them out. That or plan for the future and get insurance.

And if the non-profit/religious organisations don't have enough money to help everyone?

Or if the religious organisations want to force religion down your throat before they'll help you? Or refuse to help people who won't conform to their religion?

It sounds like a nightmare.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1523586 - 05/06/03 12:14 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

It sounds like a better solution than taking the money from those who work hard to earn it to redistribute it to those who do not. Give me one good reason that I should be forced to give them money?

I won't argue this too much with you because I recognize that you and I will never see eye to eye on this.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1523682 - 05/06/03 01:23 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It is a shame that people starve in America, or anywhere in  the world.  I believe a two-front "war" must be waged on hunger.  First, a program of "work for the government" would be initiated so that welfare recipients can become actual employees of the government.  They are already recieving money and medical coverage from the state, why not have them work some?  Their are numerous things we could get these welfare recipients to do (shoveling snow for elderly people, roadside cleanup, babysitting OTHER welfare recipients children so their parents can look for a job / attend school).  It wouldn't really matter what they did, we could have them building public parks for people to enjoy, we might as well get SOME return on our giving they monthly stipends and medical assistance.

Secondly, we need to engage in a humane form of population control.  I think the best method of this is voluntary contraception.  With contraception and E D U C A T I O N, we can, hopefully, tied the huge wave of numbers of humans.  This trimming of the surplus (in an ethical way) would deal with the cause of human hunger. 

Just some thoughts while i'm really stoned :smile: Hope ya enjoy, and I hope I'm on-topic somewhat :wink:

JR 


Wow man, that's actually a pretty good post, I never thought I'd say so, but I agree with most of your points.   


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1523689 - 05/06/03 01:28 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

utilities, infrastructure, healthcare, fire\rescue, and education are all things which can and should be left to the private sector.




Would there be standards to this private sector. For instance, would there be regulations in healthcare, or would it be complete lassie-faire? If their are regulations, who would enforce them, wouldn't their have to be organizations to accomplish compliance within the private sector?

And if it isn't regulated, how do you propose to keep large companies from becoming monopolies?

It just seems like reducing the amount of government agencies and programs will just lead to massive increases in the size of remaining agencies and programs. Same monster, different name.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


Edited by Skikid16 (05/06/03 01:30 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineI_Fart_Blue
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 3,495
Loc: SItting on the Group W Be...
Last seen: 20 years, 18 days
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1523736 - 05/06/03 02:14 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I figured some of you may find this interesting so I thought I would share (Sorry to Quick Reply you Skikid :frown: )

This is a set of Lorenz curves for the Unites States for 2001-1971 in 5 year incriments and 1967. A Lorenz curve is a graphic distribution of income. As you can see, the cyan line represents perfect income equality. The more bowed a curve is, the greater the income inequality.

Some notes: The LC measures pretax money; it does not measure underground earnings; it does not account for age differences; it does not take into account income in kind (income received in the form of goods in services as opposed to money income); it does not take into account family size and effort.

This doesn't pertain to anything in particular here, but I thought it was some interesting information nonetheless. I was looking for some current Lorenz curves tonight for myself and could not find any, so what the hell, I decided to make some.

The data, which may be obtained  here only went back to 67, so thats the reason for the 4 year incriment from 67-71. 


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1523936 - 05/06/03 07:05 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I do agree with Z@Z however, why should my hardearned money go to fund some fat welfare momma living in skid row? Nothing I love more than being in line at a grocery store, seeing the obese sweatpant wearing pig in front of me use her "food stamps" for food, and then get 2 c artons of Newports, while holding her cell phone. It's nice to know that "FICA" line on my paycheck represents them.


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 17 days
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
    #1523995 - 05/06/03 07:44 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

CultyVader writes:

Wow. I really wanted to talk about welfare alternatives, but instead we ended up on the government's role in life.

That is how it should be. Nothing can ever be decided properly by looking at specific examples while ignoring the underlying fundamental principles involved. It is unfortunate the current educational system in America (yes, even including University education) teaches so little of this kind of analysis.

Your point of view, mush, is so extreme its impossible to even visualize...

Once again, a crushing indictment of the American educational system. That a high school graduate can say such a thing and honestly mean it boggles the mind --

"...it is impossible to even visualize..."

This from someone educated in America, home of the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.

*shakes head sorrowfully*

pinky





--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524143 - 05/06/03 09:50 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Your point of view, mush, is so extreme its impossible to even visualize...

Once again, a crushing indictment of the American educational system. That a high school graduate can say such a thing and honestly mean it boggles the mind --



Considering that there has never, EVER been a Libertarian government, I would say that it's easy to see why such views could be considered extreme.

Quote:

"...it is impossible to even visualize..."

This from someone educated in America, home of the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.

*shakes head sorrowfully*



America has had federal taxes since the signing of the Constitution, and had state and local taxes before that. If you can name even one sovereign nation that didn't have taxes, my hat goes off to you.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1524163 - 05/06/03 10:08 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

firing someone you employ (when not in violation of a contract), while it may hurt them, is not an initiation of force or fraud.

evicting someone who hasn't paid rent from the apartment building you own is not an initiation of force.

dumping your girlfriend is not an initiation of force.

it is possible to 'hurt' someone without initiating force or fraud.

when you violate someone's rights, against their will, this is an initiation of force. stealing from someone is a force\fraud situation. so it raping someone. so is poisoning someone. or trespassing on their property. or murdering them.

hope that clears things up a little.


Edited by mushmaster (05/06/03 10:16 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 17 days
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524182 - 05/06/03 10:17 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

America has had federal taxes since the signing of the Constitution...

What were the taxes for? Not for health care or welfare or schools or FCC or NASA or EPA or the War on Drugs. The extremely small taxes (NOT income tax, remember) raised mostly through tariffs paid for the legitimate functions of government -- cops, courts, and military.

It's not that CultyVader is having a hard time grasping a country with no taxes, it's that he doesn't even realize that up until about a hundred years ago, people looked after all these things and more by themselves, rather than perceiving government as a combination nanny/Santa Claus.

That is the fault of the American educational system.

pinky


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524190 - 05/06/03 10:20 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

America has had federal taxes since the signing of the Constitution...

What were the taxes for? Not for health care or welfare or schools or FCC or NASA or EPA or the War on Drugs. The extremely small taxes (NOT income tax, remember) raised mostly through tariffs paid for the legitimate functions of government -- cops, courts, and military.

It's not that CultyVader is having a hard time grasping a country with no taxes, it's that he doesn't even realize that up until about a hundred years ago, people looked after all these things and more by themselves, rather than perceiving government as a combination nanny/Santa Claus.

That is the fault of the American educational system.



For a good look at what poverty looked like before welfare, I suggest reading some Dickens.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524192 - 05/06/03 10:22 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

i was tought in economics class in the public high school i attended that laissez faire capitalism was impossible, had been a total failure, and that the government had to involve itself in the market, and quite substantially.


Edited by mushmaster (05/06/03 01:21 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 17 days
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1524199 - 05/06/03 10:24 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

For a good look at what poverty looked like before welfare, I suggest reading some Dickens.

I have read Dickens. He was an excellent writer of fiction; a truly great novelist. What's your point?

pinky


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524202 - 05/06/03 10:25 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

i was tought in economics class in the public high school i attended that laissez faire capitalism was impossible, had been a total failure, and that the government had to involve itself in the market, and quite substantially.



That's interesting. I thought laissez faire capitalism had been practiced before, but that corporations got out of hand and children worked in horrendous conditions.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 17 days
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524208 - 05/06/03 10:26 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

i was tought in economics class in the public high school i attended that laissez faire capitalism was impossible, had been a total failure, and that the government had to involve itself in the market, and quite substantially.

I rest my case.

Kudos to you for your ability to recognize bullshit when you hear it.

pinky


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524215 - 05/06/03 10:29 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

For a good look at what poverty looked like before welfare, I suggest reading some Dickens.

I have read Dickens. He was an excellent writer of fiction; a truly great novelist. What's your point?



His novels, based on the conditions of his time, paint a very dark image of inescapable poverty which is much more harsh and unbearable than what today's lower class experiences. One of the main reasons that I am in favor of social programs is so that we do not have that happen again.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524220 - 05/06/03 10:32 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

well i certainly didn't recognize it at the time.

we were taught that when the market was down (and unemployment up), the government had to 'pump money' into it via tax cuts and a reduced fed rate to get it back up again, and when inflation was high, had to discourage spending by a higher fed rate or higher taxes.

it makes sense. why is this wrong?

also, what does a laissez faire system do about currency?

and what about the Earth? can anyone really claim ownership of raw natural resources?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency
( 1 2 3 all )
Tao 4,289 52 12/09/04 08:56 PM
by nycomyco
* A few "welfare" myths
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
Xlea321 12,397 177 07/30/03 05:19 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* General Welfare
( 1 2 3 all )
luvdemshrooms 2,540 45 12/14/03 03:37 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Fuck Welfare!
( 1 2 all )
silversoul7 2,145 35 06/05/03 03:54 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Drug testing for welfare recipients
( 1 2 all )
TheOneYouKnow 2,794 29 01/19/04 07:44 PM
by TheOneYouKnow
* What could be done to welfare to make it more acceptable ...
( 1 2 all )
TheOneYouKnow 2,751 23 01/22/04 07:46 PM
by Baby_Hitler
* If not welfare, then what? silversoul7 659 15 03/17/03 05:36 PM
by Xlea321
* Australian Welfare Tao 691 6 11/11/04 04:55 PM
by Catalysis

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
5,496 topic views. 3 members, 5 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 13 queries.