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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1524580 - 05/06/03 01:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

It's obviously a damn sight more than that. Providing health care for people who would otherwise be dying on the street isn't what I'd call "force".

no government provides healthcare. some governments provide money (tax money = taken from someone under threat of force) for healthcare.

But certainly to prevent large multi-billion dollar corporations laying waste to the environment, re-introducing child labour and ruining the quality of life for millions of people some degree of power is required.

whether the poisoning of the environment is done by some guy draining his car's oil in his backyard, or a huge corporation, it is government's job to stop this.

child labor is an interesting topic... i think that until someone's an adult, they shouldn't be able to enter into contracts like that. in general, children shouldn't be put to work.



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1524609 - 05/06/03 01:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

How about this as an idea. We form a consumer's union called "America" If people wish to have access to our market then they must agree to pay duties in the form of a percentage of their proffits that they gain from selling products and services to our members.

If they do not wish to do business with us that way, then they are  free to take their business elsewhere.  :smirk:

They can become tycoons on the island of Yap, and collect all the really big stone coins.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1524618 - 05/06/03 01:24 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How about this as an idea. We form a consumer's union called "America" If people wish to have access to our market then they must agree to pay duties in the form of a percentage of their proffits that they gain from selling products and services to our members.

If they do not wish to do business with us that way, then they are  free to take their business elsewhere.  :smirk:

They can become tycoons on the island of Yap, and collect all the really big stone coins. 



Sounds like a plan to me.  :cool:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1524631 - 05/06/03 01:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

whether the poisoning of the environment is done by some guy draining his car's oil in his backyard, or a huge corporation, it is government's job to stop this.

Pink said governments only duty was to prevent physical force between citizens and national defence. Is protecting the environment now included too?

child labor is an interesting topic... i think that until someone's an adult, they shouldn't be able to enter into contracts like that. in general, children shouldn't be put to work.

Everywhere the government is weak and corrupt enough to be bought off children will be used by corporations as slave labour.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1524719 - 05/06/03 02:05 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Pink said governments only duty was to prevent physical force between citizens and national defence. Is protecting the environment now included too?

by physical force, what is meant is violation of your rights, which most often does mean having your body or property physically violated. however, it is not limited to this. instead of 'physical force' it might be a little more accurate to say, 'violations of rights'.

you are a lifeform here on Earth and have a right to a clean planet. if someone poisons the planet we all live on and share, this is a violation of everyone's right. short answer: yes.

Everywhere the government is weak and corrupt enough to be bought off children will be used by corporations as slave labour.

this is true, which is why the government's role in protecting people's rights must be carefully and explicitly defined in it's charter or constitution.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1525069 - 05/06/03 04:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

by physical force, what is meant is violation of your rights

If you say so. However Pink said quite specifically:

Since only physical force (and by extension, fraud) can prevent a human from acting as he sees fit, it is only the initiation of physical force by humans against other humans which need be addressed.

If you are now saying "physical force" actually means the government should be responsible for "all violations of human rights" then I agree.

this is true, which is why the government's role in protecting people's rights must be carefully and explicitly defined in it's charter or constitution.

So as well as the government being responsible for protecting the environment it is also responsible for working conditions. Fair enough.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1525104 - 05/06/03 04:18 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

when a person (or group) pollutes the environment, they are infringing on our right to inhabit a clean Earth. as living parts of the ecosystem, i think that we are born with a right to a clean planet.

also, they are hurting the planet. i think that if the rights of human beings come second to anything, it's to the welfare of Earth and the ecosystem.

If you are now saying "physical force" actually means the government should be responsible for "all violations of human rights" then I agree.

that is what i'm saying. i think you and i may have a different definition of 'human rights' though.

So as well as the government being responsible for protecting the environment it is also responsible for working conditions. Fair enough.

safety and child labor regulations, yes, but no regulation of wages or hours.


Edited by mushmaster (05/06/03 04:54 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1525199 - 05/06/03 05:08 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

when a person (or group) pollutes the environment, they are infringing on our right to inhabit a clean Earth. as living parts of the ecosystem, i think that we are born with a right to a clean planet.

You have no "right" to inhabit a "clean" Earth. No matter how careful humans are, their very act of living creates pollution. Man cannot exist without fire, and fire pollutes. Natural phenomena "pollute" as well. The eruption of Mount Pinatubo a decade or so dumped more crap into the atmosphere than all of mankind's activities combined do in a year.

The act of clearing virgin forest to plant crops alters the ecosystem. The act of diverting water sources to irrigate the crops alters the ecosystem. The act of vaccinating against disease and controlling various mosquitoes and parasites alters the ecosystem.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1525209 - 05/06/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

What if someone's act damages you or your property?


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Anonymous

Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1525256 - 05/06/03 05:30 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, good points...

but depending on the circumstances, i'd say that in most cases, if someone's pollution spills over to my body or my property, that's a crime.


Edited by mushmaster (05/06/03 05:30 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1525514 - 05/06/03 07:11 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

What if someone's act damages you or your property?

Then that someone has violated your rights.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
    #1525536 - 05/06/03 07:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

...but depending on the circumstances, i'd say that in most cases, if someone's pollution spills over to my body or my property, that's a crime.

Indeed it is. The key word here is "property". Your body is of course also your property.

It is of course possible that the act of polluting affects a number of properties -- for example a factory dumping toxic effluent into a river which feeds the property of many others downstream, or pours cyanide gas or something into the air upwind of the property of others. In either case, that factory is clearly violating the rights of those affected.

However, someone lighting a campfire is not.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1525568 - 05/06/03 07:32 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

What about "public property" e.g. parks, and National Forrests?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
    #1526435 - 05/07/03 12:05 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

In either case, that factory is clearly violating the rights of those affected.

So you now believe the government should be responsible for protecting the environment as well as "physical force" between individuals? Is there anything else you think the government should be responsible for?

What if the pollution isn't a clear-cut case whether it's damaging anyone or not? Without government enforced pollution rules to protect them do you think the average householder would have much luck in taking a multi-billion dollar corporation to court?

What if the corporations destroy the rain forest in another country? Does the government have the right to control these corporations even tho no-ones "property" is being affected? Or do we simply leave the corporations to destroy the rain forest?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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