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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520807 - 05/04/03 11:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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ahem... a little beatles for the crowd...
"Let me tell you how it will be There's one for you, nineteen for me 'cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Should five percent appear too small Be thankful I don't take it all 'cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
If you drive a car, I'll tax the street If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet Taxman
'Cause I'm the taxman, Yeah, I'm the taxman
Don't ask me what I want it for If you don't want to pay some more 'cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Now my advice for those who die Declare the pennies on your eyes 'cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman And you're working for no one but me"
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520817 - 05/04/03 11:05 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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you really dont have any defense to youre argument do you? You say welfare is bad and itd be better if it was gone so you can shoot people. This is soo rediculous how doesn anyone take you seriously?
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Anonymous
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520819 - 05/04/03 11:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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libertarian.
for me it really just boils down to respect for liberty. any man (or woman), as long as he does not invade upon the rights of others, should be free to do as he wishes with his mind, his body, his time, and his money.
the only role of the state should be to uphold and protect liberty.
to me, anything else is unnatural.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520822 - 05/04/03 11:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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So your argument is that it is ok to take money from me and give it to someone else?
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: ]
#1520827 - 05/04/03 11:09 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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ok, but dont you think huge masses of poverty stricken people would eventually encroach on your rights or your liberty? Especially your body like you mentioned earlier about gunpointing and whatnot.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520839 - 05/04/03 11:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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If they did it would be illegial and they would go to jail for what they do. I would also be able to defend myself if they tried to steal from me. I also think we would have fewer poor people with no welfare. That is also one of the same arguments they use to keep drugs illegial.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
Edited by z@z.com (05/04/03 11:13 PM)
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520841 - 05/04/03 11:12 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well lets just get on the same page here. Do you agree that poverty in so many us citizens is a problem? Also do agree that some kind of action (not necessarily aid but ANY action) should be taken on this matter? Or shoudl we just ignore it?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520846 - 05/04/03 11:14 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Action should be taken, but the government should have no part of it.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520852 - 05/04/03 11:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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It seems like youre leaning to a time closer resembling the old west. There were a lot of poor people back then too. Killing poor people is not going to solve this. And neither is jail. Besides we have to pay to put people in jail and i hear its a lot more expensive per inmate to support thgem in there than to support them outside of jail.
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520856 - 05/04/03 11:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Who then? Just out of sheer curiosity.
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 17 days
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520857 - 05/04/03 11:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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CultyVader writes:
Do you agree that poverty in so many us citizens is a problem?
Sure. But as you pointed out yourself, government policy (welfare) is one of the biggest reasons there are so many.
Also do agree that some kind of action (not necessarily aid but ANY action) should be taken on this matter?
Sure. Folks should help other folks. However, folks should not be forced to help other folks. Compassion at the point of a gun is not compassion, it's extortion.
pinky
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520860 - 05/04/03 11:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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DId I ever say we should kill and imprison the poor?
What we should do is allow people to give to the poor and help them at their descretion. This would mean that the widow with three kids would recieve a lot more help than Johnny the lazy alcoholic with no job.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 17 days
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520863 - 05/04/03 11:19 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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CultyVader asks:
Who then? Just out of sheer curiosity.
If you wish to help the poor, no one will stop you.
pinky
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520869 - 05/04/03 11:20 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Who then? Just out of sheer curiosity.
Non profit organizations, individuals, religious groups and anyone who wants to lend a helping hand. I would (and do) gladly help the poor. There is a difference between helping them and throwing them handouts.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: Phred]
#1520872 - 05/04/03 11:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
CultyVader asks:
Who then? Just out of sheer curiosity.
If you wish to help the poor, no one will stop you.
The question, then: Is it enough?
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520879 - 05/04/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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That makes sense, a lot of sense and i could totally understand that as an argument. Addressing that though, do we have any examples where the government has left the public to its own devices to remedy a problem? Meaning, do you ahve any proof or exam[ples where this has worked?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520882 - 05/04/03 11:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The question, then: Is it enough?
I believe that it would be, but that doesn't really matter. The point is that it is wrong to steal. Period. I don't care if it is a crackhead robbing me or the government it is still wrong.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: CultyVader]
#1520883 - 05/04/03 11:26 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not off the top of my head and I'm heading to bed so I don't really have any time to find any. The point is that I know that the current system does not work. Plus it is wrong to rob peter to pay paul.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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CultyVader
Dark SporeApprentice

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 595
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: z@z.com]
#1520886 - 05/04/03 11:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I just dont understand the government robbing thing. Do you think all taxes are robbery at gunpoint or just the ones directed at programs you dont believe in?
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 17 days
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Re: Welfare just doesnt work. [Re: silversoul7]
#1520915 - 05/04/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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silversoul7 writes:
The question, then: Is it enough?
Whether is is or it isn't, extorting money from peaceful individuals is too much.
pinky
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