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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: FishLevelMidnight]
    #25524317 -

fishermansjc said:
You can have differences within the strains making up a tub or fruitbody even, it’s not impossible to think of a spontaneous reversion to WT in some subset of genetics.

Again this depends on the mutation causing leucistic fruits. If it’s a large deletion or something than there is pretty much zero chance of getting color back, but if it’s a frameshift than it could spontaneously revert


Good point. Is deletion the likely cause of the leucistic traits?


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: lewp] * 1
    #25524329 -

Quote:
Again this depends on the mutation causing leucistic fruits. If it’s a large deletion or something than there is pretty much zero chance of getting color back, but if it’s a frameshift than it could spontaneously revert


u say its a mutation and we know its a recessive  so theres ur answer i laid out all the possibilities in my last posts and do the work you will see its not possible to revert unless the variety was never homozygous and if it was never homozygous there would always be 2 or three phenotypes

dna is just code and spontaneous reversion dont happen unless the code for that is already present at the loci i.e 1 normal gene and 1 mutant. and if thats the case we wouldnt have RW or aa+ because it would never be homozygous and we would have a constant re occuring over mixed phenotypes in one grow

the whole reason RW worked is because its leucy gene is recessive and then has been selected to contain the same gene at the smae position in every spore thus making it a homozygous variety or simply put RW would never have been able to stabalise two recessive genes and create and homozygous variety.

this whole thread proves my point


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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/09/18 02:43 PM)

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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: mustangbob3]
    #25524346 -

Or a new mutation occurs... solar radiation etc :shrug:


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25524352 -

yes exactly only an new mutation would be able to change the allelles at that position but that hasnt happend here has it or we would be looking at two mutant alleles and the phenotypes would be even greater depending on how the mutations was i.e dominant- codominant or recessive to each other so ur point has no merit and im sure mr whyte himself would tell u that RW is stable and has 1 phenotype regarding the recessives that it was bred for and that can only mean one thing its been selected to have the mutant genes paired the same at the loci in every spore i.e homozygous along the way if he selected the wrong fruit to take forward and had 1 mutant and 1 normal reversion happens, if u select a full mutant it can only go on to make full mutants as the normal gene at that position has been effectivly deleted or bred out


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25524359 -

IDK i think you got hung up on your genetics angle. The original statement was that sometimes stable Lucy varieties produce non lucy fruits. Environmental conditions was also a possible cause and you never addressed that.
bodhisatta said:
When aa  is grown in conditions that kinda suck they sometimes put out normal shrooms


In fact the only time I can recall seeing normal caps come out of aa  is on grows that are doing sad.


Pardon the repeat but, you coulda simply searched and seen tc's saying yes it happens for uncertain reasons.


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: LtLurker]
    #25524375 -

ur proof is all anecdotal where the control?
how u know not rogue spores did that?
or a grow down the line got taint by another spore and that where it came from?

i trust hundreds years of proof of how genes work over hearsay with no tangible facts at all.

genetics works and is provable and repeatable ur proof has no basis and no facts and no controls and certainly is not repeatable

attack my facts and give some real world proofs ?


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: mustangbob3] * 2
    #25524439 -

mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
Again this depends on the mutation causing leucistic fruits. If it’s a large deletion or something than there is pretty much zero chance of getting color back, but if it’s a frameshift than it could spontaneously revert


u say its a mutation and we know its a recessive  so theres ur answer i laid out all the possibilities in my last posts and do the work you will see its not possible to revert unless the variety was never homozygous and if it was never homozygous there would always be 2 or three phenotypes

dna is just code and spontaneous reversion dont happen unless the code for that is already present at the loci i.e 1 normal gene and 1 mutant. and if thats the case we wouldnt have RW or aa+ because it would never be homozygous and we would have a constant re occuring over mixed phenotypes in one grow

the whole reason RW worked is because its leucy gene is recessive and then has been selected to contain the same gene at the smae position in every spore thus making it a homozygous variety or simply put RW would never have been able to stabalise two recessive genes and create and homozygous variety.

this whole thread proves my point


Spontaneous reversion happens often. Remember all mutations are "spontaneous" and random.
Like I said before, the original leucism mutation was a spontaenous reversion.

Here is an example:

Gene A- involved in canonical color to cubensis caps and stipe.
5'-AAGACCCCCCGCAGTATC-3'
This is sequence in the coding region of the gene at, lets say, the first exon. This is wild type sequence.

Now if I add another C in that repeated sequence (something that happens somewhat often with DNA replication of repetitive sequence, slippage, denoted by the "c") than I cause a frameshift mutation and my resulting protein will either be truncated due to a premature stop codon or completely different in primary structure from the wild type gene (and be non functional).
5'-AAGACCCCCcCGCAGTATC-3'
This is the leucistic allele.

You're right in that if I breed 2 individuals with that allele than I will get a leucistic homozygous mutant.

However, it is "just as easy" to also have a replication error that results in a mutation of the leucistic allele BACK to the WT by removing a C (almost any C will work) and putting the gene back in the proper reading frame.

Thus it can spontaneously arise just as the mutant was spontaneous in the first place.

My comment about large deletions is still true. If I completely delete the DNA that encodes the majority of this gene than there is no way I could spontaneously repair the damage.

We are not aware of how damaged the genetics of any mutants are. It is possible that AA+ (for example) circulating around have
1) different mutations in the same gene
2) different mutations in different genes

Thus it is possible in both cases to breed "homoqygous" recessive mutants and get WT fruits. This is because you are making a HUGE assumption when you say they are homozygous at that locus. When was the last time any of this was genotyped? We are just basing that claim on the phenotype, in which the same phenotype can result from a vast combination of genotypes.

It is also possible that after selection for leucism that there is relaxed pressure on that gene, allowing mutations to accumulate. As long as they do not "fix" protein function than they can accumulate, driving tht locus farther and farther from homozygosity. Eventually you could cross and repair the gene via recombination.

There is also epigenetics, something I know nothing about in terms of fungi. It is possible that epigenetic control can alter DNA polymerase activity in such a way to make slippage events more possible. Following with my example, this could potentially "fix" a frame shift mutation and cause normal fruits like in the example posted with the single WT fruit color posted earlier.


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: FishLevelMidnight] * 1
    #25524480 -

great post !

yes u are correct and it is an assumption that say aa+ is homozygous :thumbup:
the grow results and the results when breeding have borne out these facts


Quote:
My comment about large deletions is still true. If I completely delete the DNA that encodes the majority of this gene than there is no way I could spontaneously repair the damage.

We are not aware of how damaged the genetics of any mutants are. It is possible that AA+ (for example) circulating around have
1) different mutations in the same gene
2) different mutations in different genes


yes and when we selected the full mutant the allele for wild type is lost.
and yes i covered why its not a combination  of different mutations at the same loci and again is borne out by the results even pasty has.

and i agree reversion can happen but is never going to happen with a variety that is concidered homozygous without further new mutation and was my point long ago.

u dont need to sequence genomes to know whats happening.

u look at the next generations offspring and work out what hets u have and if they become dominant recessive ect in the f3 filals, then u can safely work back to original punnet square to confirm genetic ratios and then test the f3 offsprings progeny like pasty had to to know what u have.

do u not agree.?

we have plenty of documentation and its safe to say its one gene in aa+ thats caused leucism and not a combination of mutant alleles sharing loci. or that different genes occupy a different loci and affects the expression.

look at RW.

its a double recessive and has removed the gene to create wild type that means its a full double mutant and no longer carries the genetic info to revert to wild type unless like i said before from new mutation, and the results prove that not to be the case here.

yes u was right its possible in some cases but not probable and looking at the facts from progeny crosses with aa+ we can deduce that the leusism is homozygous and only one mutant gene by the single het( not multiple hets) it passes on and the gene frequency and expression of the progeny and also MS grows of aa+ show this too as 99% except chance new mutation show homozygous results and not more than 1 pheno type and genotype.
if was a combination of mutant genes you would have an array of hets and more phenotypes to accomodate in the f3 and we dont have that

no sequencing needed.

as for epigenetics i have nothing  to add there but i do understand how enviromental factors can play a part and even 'genetic memory' but i dont have enough understanding to go into that tbh


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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/09/18 03:56 PM)

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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: mustangbob3]
    #25524548 -

:popcorn:


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: Crispykoot] * 1
    #25524567 -

sorry pastywhyte for the long rebuttals and i tried to keep it as relevant as possible but will leave it there, all the facts laid out :thumbup:

and thanks for the upvote and token of support.

i always knew u would crack this and well done bro and thanks from us all truly!

and sorry guys for having put up with me, no hate, just love to debate


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: mustangbob3] * 2
    #25524609 -

I think the only argument was that it is possible, for whatever reason would cause it, it could, in fact, happen... not that it's likely, or without external conditions playing a part... I'd assume a cross exhibiting recessive traits, that had typical traits show, was in fact not homozygous  (as the prefix clearly insinuates) and would likely be more unstable than a normal looking cube showing up rarely: but I suppose that's a possibility as well; perhaps gene dormancy? Just throwing ideas about, it's intriguing


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25524624 -

where would this dormant information hide if the loci position already taken up?


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: mustangbob3] * 1
    #25524649 -

:shrug: lol, perhaps it's not... without genetically mapping it, "homozygous" could be an assumption based in subjective observation of one recessive gene, and one dormant dominant? Again,  I'm just throwing it out there... point being, anything is possible; however unlikely it may seem... I've eaten enough mush to know that
:kittylaugh:

Idk... environmental, a misunderstanding of the genetic lineages, or mutation all seem like plausible cause for the unlikely scenario... It's all "what if' s" without objective evidence; either stance of the debate (at this point)... confirming the existence or nonexistence of homozygous genes through direct observation of the  DNA in question would be the only way to truly know; and some interesting data to see


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25524682 -

Back on topic... 2 T1 transfers after only 24 hours... slow start, but acts like it may pick up... makes me feel like the surface of my germ plates had dried a bit in storage (3-4 weeks) before use, as the mycelium is climbing around on to the cut surfaces rather quickly... interested to see how it'll take to soft agar:



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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25524690 -

but we do have hundreds of years of breeding knowledge to back up how genes work.

look at the vast array of foods we have bred
the dog breeds
cornsnake morphs
cannabis strains
the list goes on any they all have dna and all conform to the present understanding of genes and expression and fungi is no diff


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: mustangbob3] * 1
    #25524697 -

There are exceptions in all your examples as well... no one is arguing it's unlikely: only that it's possible... all is well


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25524782 -

Isn't there a thread for that discussion?

I'm here for the RW porn :popcorn:


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: Wing] * 3
    #25524802 -

If you delve into the literature on evolution and genomics you’ll find that genotyping is absolutely necessary to determine if it is homozygous or heterozygous for the reasons I mentioned.

You can easily have the same phenotype with different genotypes. Genes are in networks and regulate one another, I can get leucistic fruits if I knock out function of the gene that produces color but I can also get leucistic fruits if I knock out the transcription factor that tells the pigment gene when to turn on... same phenotype but complete different genotypes.

What you’re saying is mostly correct but is a basic understanding. Once you look into what is really happening and mix that with our understanding/lack of understanding of some fungal genetics you’ll see there is a lot more going on. “Conform to “your” present understanding” of genetics... there are folks doing some insanely detailed work that probably could justify/explain things better.

I agree that it is likely homozygous at the loci that produces leucism; however, long established strains like AA+ can easily accumulate mutations in that region that don’t disrupt the phenotype and become heterozygous (alleles not 100% match) while remaining leucistic, and can then be reduced with the right/lucky meeting of genetics.

Should be more RW porn incoming soon, I just mailed over a dozen letters with prints :smile:


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: mustangbob3]
    #25524805 -

mustangbob3 said:
i know the mr x and its not RW its a dutch creation and a cross off moby dick and CRS.

very similar but different and came out quite abit before RW.
recently been lots new ones over this way.

tidalwave
aztec god
ecbrains
willmex
cambodia gold
moby dick
golden mammoth ect

breeding cubes has been going on for years here


Yeah I got the Aztec God spores awhile back and just figured its a marketing gimik. Could find no info on them, particularly here.  It has become one of my current favorites so far though. Was gonna grab some tidal wave but the vendor is non existent now it seems. Just kinda relived someone else out there has heard of them.

Anyways on topic, gonna do another transfer of RW too a couple plates tomorrow. Then get some grains ready for a couple shoe boxs and a mono if I'm satisfied with how they look. :evil2:


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Re: The official RustyWhyte grow along [Re: FishLevelMidnight]
    #25524814 -

fishermansjc said:
Should be more RW porn incoming soon, I just mailed over a dozen letters with prints :smile:


:munchdance:


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