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OfflineFrog
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You Will All Burn in Hell
    #2408110 - 03/08/04 06:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

j/k

So, I was paying attention to the things people wrote during the Christian-bashing phase, and then the explanation stage, and I understand at least one thing people don't like about Christians:

Christians arrogantly state that "you" (the non-believer) are going to hell for not believing that Jesus died for your sins.

I've read that it's arrogant to believe that way, and that we're not right just because we think we're right, or just because of the bible. 

Also, it's arrogant to think that just because someone doesn't have beliefs, they have "no" beliefs.  Having no beliefs is the same as having beliefs, but the belief is in "nothing" rather than in "something".  If I have any of this wrong, feel free to correct me.  I'm trying to understand what is pissing people off.

So maybe we're just saying it wrong.  I had a friend, once, that didn't believe in anything.  So in my opinion, selfishly, because I believe I'm going to heaven, I asked her, "Why don't you just believe that Jesus died for your sins?  What's the harm?  If I'm wrong, no harm, no foul.  But if I'm right, then at least you'll go to heaven with me."

I was selfishly pushing aside her beliefs of not believing in anything to try to get her to believe what I believed, instead of having respect that she did in fact believe in something.

Now, I realize also that if I believe in the bible, if I believe that Jesus died for me, and that based on that belief, I'm going to heaven, that doesn't mean that every one else is going to hell.  Maybe Christians should stop saying it that way, because it makes us sound arroagant and it pisses people off.  :grin:

Instead, we Christians should just say, "I believe, according to the bible that governs my faith, that I am going to a place defined in the bible as 'heaven' which is where one goes, after death, when one believes that Jesus died for our sins." 

We should not say, "You, because you do not believe the way I do, are going to hell."  Instead, we should say, "Nothing will happen to you, not to worry.  You will not go to hell.  In fact, you will not go to heaven, either, because heaven and hell are a Christian concept and only Christians believe that there is a heaven or hell. 

I don't know what your beliefs hold in store for you.  You may believe in reincarnation, and maybe you are a soul that just keeps coming back over and over again.  Or maybe you believe that once you die, you absolutely disappear, never to be heard from again.  Zip, zilch, nada.

But it's absolutely wrong, I think, for Christians to say "we're going to heaven and y'all are going to hell".  That is, in fact, extremely arrogant.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2408146 - 03/08/04 07:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The thing I don't like Christians and many other belief systems is that they claim to have it all figured out


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2408180 - 03/08/04 07:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If some Christians truly believe that they're going to heaven and non-Christians are going to hell, then there's nothing I can do to convince them otherwise, just as they'll never convince me that they're right(at least not until I'm burning up in the Lake of Fire).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2408313 - 03/08/04 07:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Jesus was the Jewish personification of Jewish culture. The real threat to Jewish culture was not the imperialism of the Romans, but their ability to assimilate other cultures and accept them into their society. The Romans were brutal when they had to be, but were more likely to come an agreement with their adversaries, in the form of tribute.

Jesus did not die for my sins, he is a construct that dies for my sins every day; an elaborate joke with a universal message: don't fuck with the Romans.

The first line tell you right off its a fairy tale for the weak minded. Mary the virgin is going to have a baby. OK, Mary. Or it is some sort of 1st century ribald humor.
Either way it comes down to the same thing: humor with a message.

Now the really funny part is this story appeals to so many people that they don't see the humor in it. BTW the end is the funniest part.

I shall have warm dry feet in hell and clean cool air in heaven.


--------------------
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?




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OfflineFrog
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: falcon]
    #2408448 - 03/08/04 08:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Just out of curiosity, what is the humor in it?  I am weak-minded.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: falcon]
    #2408460 - 03/08/04 08:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think it is fair to destroy an illusion without replacing it with something of equal value. Constructs help bear the weight of the painful state of uncertainty, therefore something else must be offered in exchange...as in 'Tribute', like you said.

Perhaps Christianity wears thin for some and alternate, more exciting, interesting, diversions become the attraction.

I find pyramid stuff attractive, they have a lot of pictures in their text.

(sex sells, yes I know...I'm sold)

Nice legs Froggy


Edited by castaway (03/08/04 08:31 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2408935 - 03/08/04 10:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I would like to make a kindly recommendation for you Frog. Even though my personal doctrine changes as I grow, Jesus is always my model for human development, and 'GOD is Compassion [Agape, Caritas, Love].'

'Cast not your pearls before swine,' means not to open the Holy of Holies of your Heart to the profane. Christianity is, in reality, a Mystery Religion, and the way in which its most sacred mysteries are exposed to the Philistine mentality is just shear ignorance. Yes, the Truth is free, but it is for those who have 'ears to hear,' and who sincerely inquire, just as forgiveness is given to the penitant and contrite of heart - not automatically to anyone who revels in 'sin.' The greatest mistake of Christianity is to make a burlesque out of Sacred Mysteries, to bulldoze the world with tenets of faith that make sense only to the faithful. Such tactics convince only the truly empty-headed and gullible, but like seeds on rocky soil, their shallow faith soon withers away. Only GOD 'converts' people, not human egos armed with scriptures. Such individuals are only about ego and manipulation and self-righteous judgement.

Everyone believes in something as the basis for ultimate reality. The materialist believes in sense data and the rational mind, and sets Time up as the Ultimate Reality, saying that given enough Time, anything is possible in the universe including the infinite complexity of human life. GOD then is Space-Time. The materialist, of course, has been denied the experience of Transcendental Vision, which is always transforming in an alchemical way, converting the base materialist into a spiritually golden human being. Pity the poor materialist - especially the economically poor materialist, whose frustration must be overwhelming - a living in a material world with very little materiality of his/her own.

It is NOT a Christian's task to judge others, just because certain Biblical passages speak of the damned. Nobody knows who is damned. The Davidic line of Jesus is rife with adulterers, murderers and harlots, and yet are found righteous according to scriptures. This is a manipulative, invalid use of scriptures in the service of the ego - power, manipulation, control. There is no Love about it. The Light of Heaven is the Fire of Hell for those who have not spent their lives increasing Christ within, and decreasing self. It is The former has Eternal Life, the latter perishes. Like the Egyptian weighing of the feather against the Heart of the deceased - the Presence of Love defines the Nature of the individual, and his/her state of being (Heaven or Hell) while yet in THIS life. Peoples' own lives become their own judgement. No one else is needed to judge them from without.

Peace be unto you.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2409015 - 03/08/04 11:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Just out of curiosity, what is the humor in it? I could say that Jesus is the Jewish personification of Roman culture and it would be just as true.

I am weak-minded. :grin: I love bashing you christians,  you fall over, but you always get up for more.

BTW Jesus is dead, Christ lives on.


--------------------
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?




Edited by falcon (03/08/04 11:19 PM)


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: castaway]
    #2409057 - 03/08/04 11:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I find pyramid stuff attractive, they have a lot of pictures in their text.
:lol:
So do I the pointy part is the best.


--------------------
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?




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OfflineFrog
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2409228 - 03/09/04 12:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Good point on that "pearls before swine" thing, Markos, and I appreciate the meaning behind it.  I don't think I have come on this forum and judged others, though.  I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right.  I think I have just shared my beliefs.

I was trying to understand why people hate Christians, and I think I am beginning to understand that it is because Christians (I don't think me, but someone can go through all my posts and find where I have judged others, if that is truly what I have done) judge others and tell everyone who isn't Christian that they are going to hell.

I, personally, don't go around telling people they are going to hell because I realized a while back that maybe I don't understand the bible as well as I should, and maybe no one understands what was written in it, so who are we to go around saying who is going to hell and who is going to heaven? 

I'd like to think I am going to heaven, but I also would like to think everyone else is, too.  And I apologize that I want to see you all in the heaven that I believe in.  If that's judgmental, or if that's pushing my beliefs on you, I really do apologize. 

But this has been a good learning experience for me, to finally understand (I think I understand) what makes people dislike Christians.  Well, I kind of dislike Christians for the most part, too.  I wrote a while back about my family, and they are bible-thumpers, and I am going to hell.  Does anyone remember this?  :grin:

Peace, Falcon.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2409267 - 03/09/04 12:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Peace, Frog; :grin: Live long and prosper, but if you get to heaven before I do leave the light on. :grin:


--------------------
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have done it before and it never has an effect on the true believer so what is the point?




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Invisiblebert
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2409921 - 03/09/04 04:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Frog, from reading some of your posts I feel that are becoming more open minded, but that you still have a ways to go as do we all. Yah, I know I shouldn't be talking. I'm like half your age, but I don't think age automatically corellates to maturity. I've had a deep seeded distrust of christians after a christian friend of mine narced me and several friends of mine out for having weed. So maybe you can change my impression of christians. You should start your own website "Christians for Cubenses"! By the way, how did you end up at these boards? Have you any interest in shrooms?


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2410032 - 03/09/04 06:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What bothers me about Christians saying we'll go to hell if we don't believe like they do is:

1) Saying we're going to hell isn't going to convince us to believe otherwise.
2) If it does, we heathens wouldn't really have faith in God (like I'm sure he'd want us to), but would worship him and his son for fear of going to hell.
3) The motive behind saying summit like "You gon' burn" will most likely be arrogance rather than a general interest in the wellbeing of the other. This can be deduced from the wording they'll use.
4) Judge not... etc, like stated by Marcos.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineFrog
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: bert]
    #2410377 - 03/09/04 10:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
Frog, from reading some of your posts I feel that are becoming more open minded, but that you still have a ways to go as do we all.




I agree with you.  Actually, until I was 26, I thought I was pretty smart and thought I knew everything, even though I was a high school drop-out.  Then, at 26, I started college and that caused me to realize I wasn't as smart as I thought and that I really didn't know anything.  The older I get, the more I learn, the less I know.  :wink:

Quote:

  Yah, I know I shouldn't be talking.  I'm like half your age, but I don't think age automatically corellates to maturity. 




I agree.  I have a daughter who is 26 years old and she is one of the smartest, philosophical people that I know.  She seems to have this natural wisdom and peace about her. 

Quote:

I've had a deep seeded distrust of christians after a christian friend of mine narced me and several friends of mine out for having weed.  So maybe you can change my impression of christians.  You should start your own website "Christians for Cubenses"!




I don't blame you for distrusting Christians.  After I had my little snit about a week ago, I was talking to someone (from this forum) who said, "They're right, you know."  Meaning, that Christians really are assholes.  Or, can be.  For the most part.  Or, at least, I've met very few Christians like me. 

Actually, the Christians that are like me are the ones that you would never know are Christians because they don't run around judging people and yet they don't hurt anyone, either. 

Quote:

By the way, how did you end up at these boards?  Have you any interest in shrooms?




I belonged to an ADHD forum and it was like OTD, and I am not good at handling stuff like that.  I tend to take things personally.  So, a friend of mine, who smokes pot, told me about this forum.  I liked what I read, so I joined.  :grin:  I would not tell anyone in my family, but a family member now knows, and I'm sure now that everyone in my family will soon know that I belong to this type of forum, and they will be cemented in their beliefs that I am going to hell and that I am a drug addict/alcoholic/crazy person.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2410384 - 03/09/04 10:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

have you tried shrooms?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineFrog
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Strumpling]
    #2410405 - 03/09/04 10:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

*sighs*

No.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePedM
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2410483 - 03/09/04 11:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It seems that the general concensus here is that a good Christian is a self-critical Christian.

We can either adopt the teachings of Christ as a means of standing aloof over others, or we can adopt the teachings of Christ as a means of self-improvement, of reorienting our actions to be more conducive to the heavenly benefits of a Christ-like attitude. The former serves us in creating a foundationless moral high ground upon which we are able to stand in righteous indignation over the faults of others, while the latter servers us as a divine mirror, revealing our faults to us so that we may remove them, gradually exposing our own divine nature. The former functions to entrench us in ignorance, believing in things without any true substance. It leaves us insecure and bound by fear. The latter functions to dissolve our ignorance, and discover truth with profound conviction. It leaves us bathed in happiness.

It is natural that those who adopt the teachings of Christ as part of their identity, waving the Christian flag as though it were a national banner, would be an aggitating presence to those around them. There is a sort of transparency to this kind of behaviour. When it becomes part of our weekly experience to encounter someone behaving so transparently warning us of eternal damnation, it's natural that we would eventually develop feelings of hostility toward such individuals.

Many harmful actions have been committed by those assuming a prideful stance in their religion. If we ourselves are not prideful in our religion, then we should not be concerned when others assail our beliefs, especially if they are doing so only in reaction to past negative experiences with which we were uninvolved.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2410544 - 03/09/04 11:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

well...
would you like to try shrooms?
(just wunnerin is all...)


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: bert]
    #2410600 - 03/09/04 11:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
Frog, from reading some of your posts I feel that are becoming more open minded, but that you still have a ways to go as do we all. Yah, I know I shouldn't be talking. I'm like half your age, but I don't think age automatically corellates to maturity. I've had a deep seeded distrust of christians after a christian friend of mine narced me and several friends of mine out for having weed. So maybe you can change my impression of christians. You should start your own website "Christians for Cubenses"! By the way, how did you end up at these boards? Have you any interest in shrooms?



Most of my stoner friends in Sacramento are Catholic, and I've even shroomed with some of them. The Bible says nothing about weed or psychedelics(or at least nothing condemning them). Those Christians who claim that drugs are against God are brainwashed by the government just as much as by their church.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: You Will All Burn in Hell [Re: Frog]
    #2410697 - 03/09/04 12:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Frog, as a "Student of the Universe", I think you would benefit greatly from some time with one of the most powerful Teachers around, the Mushroom.

Someone send her some fungus!


--------------------


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