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OfflineDeiymiyan
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HELL
    #2159040 - 12/04/03 08:13 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Living in this "Grey Area", a place that we have all come to, by default of birth, we realize that there appears to be a system of balance within.


Would it not be for the existance of a "generalized average kind of" equilibrium, we could not be physically here in the manner that we are.


At the scale that we live, we notice, what could be termed, examples of "Heaven & Hell"  on Earth.




Now, I have heard several times before, that what is seen, relative to the observer, can be extended to a more complex scale relative to what is really "out there".

This implies connectivity of the things "out there" to this "place" in which we currently reside, in terms of "reflection". 

A simplified analogy to this may be the "Tip of the Iceburg" description, where, we'd find ourselves on the tip, oblivious to the magnitude of what we could not directly see.





Let's take a step onto one side of the wall..


 


At this scale, what we'd consider "Hellish", would be a rather intense experience.  There are so many crazy things currently going on out there; and so many scary things that have happened in the past.


There is NO QUESTION, for example, that the victims in the Twin Towers, during that event we have all come to know as  "911", witnessed, first hand, an example of Hell on Earth at the human scale.

The experience must have been horrifically surreal to them! 

But is was, a reality.

What they witnessed, was real..

It was Hell, at the human scale.




If we were to "extend" the idea of Hell, from our current scale and complexity to that of what might be "out there" [..as in the Iceburg analogy..], a concept of Hell begins to emerge.




Would anyone like to discuss the concept?


What is "Hell"?


:devil:




 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Offlinejiva
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Re: HELL [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2159147 - 12/04/03 08:50 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I've always considered hell to be a self-created (perhaps collectively created) reality in which one admits ones self to be punished for those things one did and felt guilty about (that went against ones integrity). This "dimension" could be a subtle overlay on waking life, or a dramatic reality after life (or outside it).


--------------------
i am another you


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: HELL [Re: jiva]
    #2159327 - 12/04/03 09:48 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

To me, hell is when you are in torment or when a mass is at a state of misery. it's one side of the coin that expresses extreme emotion. here hell would be the negativity because that's the connection we have with the word hell.

I think how far hell can go depends on how deep the roots of fear and anxiety have been sown in a certain individuals mind. you can go as far as you want your mind to go down, or you can go up as well. both to me are just judgement values of that particular person. if there was any TRUTH or fact to the actual event in connection to what really "IS", it would remain to be seen.

the only factor I could see that hell has is chaos. And really it is neither bad nor good. or is it?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: HELL [Re: kaiowas]
    #2160187 - 12/05/03 02:44 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

hell is other people


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineFrog
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Re: HELL [Re: Positronius]
    #2160237 - 12/05/03 02:57 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
hell is other people




I disagree. Or, maybe it's a variation of hell. My variation of "hell" is being made to wait.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlineeve69
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Re: HELL [Re: Frog]
    #2160573 - 12/05/03 06:30 AM (13 years, 7 days ago)

They say hell is eternal but you can't have applied constant pressure.  In other words, pressure must be pushed and pulled like as in a circuit. In a circuit there is a polarity of positive and negative. That polarity pushes the current. So also, if you experience unremitting heat or cold for eternity it would have to always escalate or pulsate to maintain a sensation, and even then one would have to have a feeling apparatus which could perceive to the extreme without tiring out or burning up. Since there would be fluctuation in current strength of hellishness it wouldn't by exact definition be hell. Not exactly anyway, as in eternal torment of fire and brinstone.

This whole set of necessaries are impossible to create and maintain. Any system of such fragility and specificity would better spend its planning and energy in more uplifting activity. Moreover, it would be very easy to break down,  by merely moving in a different direction and not going with the hellish flow.

Oddly, using physics analogies can lead us to interesting ideas, specifically the analogies of thermodynamics.  For there to be an unremitting canned=pressurized hell which is eternal there must be infinite energy to maintain it, or there must be the state of superfluidity at near zer o temperatures as in superconduction. Therefore the icey scenario of Dante's lowest hell is probably closer to the necessary reality. You see, the conservation of momentum needed to sustain a perpetual charge would only really be possible in a zero temperature supercondusive enviroment, in which case hell would really be made from the previous spin and energy of our habits.  The same case could be made for a heaven.

However, given the physical nature of this scenario there would have to be a superconductive container which maintained the appropriate conditions, and it would have to be hermetically sealed, then cooled and maintained at that temperature which again takes enormous sums of energy.

It has been said that to explode an atome down to the finest level of time and space beyond the Planck scale would take all the energy of our universe.  Maybe this is where black holes come from, they are prisons of especially vile creatures :smile: But mainly, such a physical container would take up a lot of space.  Better to just make non eternal prisons and place everyone together in a camp, sort of like the history of Australia, and let them work it out. This is a more economical solution. Hay,you don't even really have to watch them then.

Sound familiar?  Like life on Earth.

In short, the only hell is one of our own making where we actually believe and accept that we are in hell and damned for eternity. But even then, as eternity is a long time, some will escape, and for others the bars of the cage will rust and break of themselves, and finally all will be free.

Except Bush and Cheney, those two fucking evil sorcerors and mealy mouthers who have set the stage for Apocalypse.

Have a nice night :smile:
Would you like some cookies and milk with your eternal damnation?


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: HELL [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2173273 - 12/12/03 06:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I've always considered hell to be a self-created (perhaps collectively created) reality in which one admits ones self to be punished for those things one did and felt guilty about (that went against ones integrity). This "dimension" could be a subtle overlay on waking life, or a dramatic reality after life (or outside it).
~ jiva



I would agree with you regarding "Hell" as being self-created first and collectively created thereafter as a result of constructive interference [kind of like a feed-back loop].


Regarding admitance [into 'Hell'] stemming from a feeling of guilt.. Perhaps; however, I don't think it was meant to be a form of punishment, but rather, an intended temporary escape.


What you mentionned about the "dimension"... excellent! Regarding its relation to waking life, as an overlay... I'd say that you are correct... There is OVERLAP...

The second part of that statement... you appear to speak from the reference of your personal vantage point. So the way you said it was correct.

If you were to take the generalized vantage point, you could say that it is surrounding life [ that is.. before and maybe after... I say maybe only because it dosen't have to end that way.. However the potential is always there].

==============================


To me, hell is when you are in torment or when a mass is at a state of misery. it's one side of the coin that expresses extreme emotion. here hell would be the negativity because that's the connection we have with the word hell.

I think how far hell can go depends on how deep the roots of fear and anxiety have been sown in a certain individuals mind. you can go as far as you want your mind to go down, or you can go up as well. both to me are just judgement values of that particular person. if there was any TRUTH or fact to the actual event in connection to what really "IS", it would remain to be seen.

the only factor I could see that hell has is chaos. And really it is neither bad nor good. or is it?
~Kaiowas



Concerning: "... When a mass is in a state of misery." & "... One side of the coin that expresses extreme emotion."

As I was saying to Jiva, this is a direct result of a feed-back loop. Allow me to use a silly example:


Let's begin by allowing equilibrium to be initially present, coupled with the parallel existance of an extreme potential to take the initial state [potentially] out of balance.

An illustration of what I am refering to, along with your concept, Kaiowas, can be as follows:

Suppose the mass [ and I am making the assumption that you mean "mass" to be a large number of entities ] was synonymous to a hugely and tightly packed snowball atop a hill with incredibly steep slopes. The initial positionning of the snowball is such that it can roll down any of the hill's slopes in any direction; but it dosen't due to it's [the snowball's] perfect balance. This is the state of equillibrium with potential existing all around at the same time.

The two sides of the coin, as you said, would then be like: an equillibrium side and a non-equillibrium side.

Equillibrium has a tendance to stay that way until it is taken out of balance. Once the snowball begins to move, through input to the snowball, or within the snowball, the particular potential of the hill's slope begins to take hold. The transformation is that of expression in terms of kinetic. Kinetic can be overlapped and caused to form a loop called a feed-back loop, where you can incorperate individual inputs from various locations and come up with an augmanted resulting expression.

If you find that difficult to understand, consider this... At a concerto, in an auditorium, an individual begins clapping [ not too loud eh?]. And then another, and another and soon everyone is clapping... Every individual's clap [their personally expressed kinetic] is overlapped with everyone else's... The result.. ALOT of noise ! !

It can get quite loud !



How deep the roots have been sown in an individual's mind, as you put it, overlapped with everyone else's [within the snowball] rooted sowing input, relates to a "time" period... That is... It has been happening for "this" long, where "this" is the current length of the period... Where the current length of the period is always larger everytime you say current length of the period... That is, it is always getting bigger.


So.... Back to the snowball...


Once it begins moving in one direction down the slope, it picks up more "moving ability"... In the snowball example, hopefully, it is obvious that the longer down the slope the ball has been moving, the quicker it picks up velocity.


The direction down the slope is the resulting force input by everyone within the snowball. Input can be added any time, but you'll notice that as the snowball picks up more and more speed in the direction it is going, it becomes more and more difficult to "steer" it. If everyone synchronized the input, "steering" would become easier AND have greater impact.

Unfortunately.... I would say that the sum-total input potential of everyone within the snowball has been significantly exceeded by the kinetic movement of the snowball... That is, without outside help, there can not be enough potential available to stop the snowball from its designated course. It would be synonymous to trying to steer yourself out of a huge whirlpool once you are caught in it.

It is evident that "outside" assistance [ I mean outside of the "snowball system" analogy] in that matter is absolutely essential, if there is any hope of regaining equillibrium.



Concerning the chaos... Once thrown out of balance and caught in an overlapping loop, it can get rather crazy to the observer.. Like a microphone, for example, that begins to pickup its own noise through the speakers and loop it through the system over and over causing that resulting "screeching noise".

Chaos is neither good nor bad... It is simply the manner in which the system behaves. Absolute chaos is the extreme flipside of relative equillibrium.

==========================


Positronius said:
hell is other people



In terms of influence upon the physical, I'd agree with you that "Hell" can be reflected, sometimes VERY efficiently, through people.
========================

Frog: I disagree. Or, maybe it's a variation of hell. My variation of "hell" is being made to wait.

I appologise for taking this long to reply.

==========================



eve69:

They say hell is eternal but you can't have applied constant pressure. In other words, pressure must be pushed and pulled like as in a circuit. In a circuit there is a polarity of positive and negative. That polarity pushes the current. So also, if you experience unremitting heat or cold for eternity it would have to always escalate or pulsate to maintain a sensation, and even then one would have to have a feeling apparatus which could perceive to the extreme without tiring out or burning up.



Tiring out or burning up is a quality of "real physical"... Such as our bodies, where there is a maximum amount of feeling that they can translate... A finite feeling potential, which, when exceeded, is just too much "information".

If you were to reach a point of "too much information", nothing would matter anymore. It would be like completely surrendering [willingly or unwillingly] yourself ... Because you'd understand: there would be no stopping it.

Remember, I am keeping this in relation to real physical... Synonymous to the manner in which your physical brain has a finite limit of "experience potential", and once exceeded, it is just "too much information"... That is, it [the physical brain] can't process all of it [more than its limit potential] efficiently; therefore, known logical thinking patterns would begin to break down and fail. It would be a state where you'd recognize your inability to maintain control... And thus, as a consequence, you would surrender yourself completely.

[ASIDE- As one approaches the limit of the brain's experience potential {without exceeding that potential}, whether towards a direction of perceived "good" or "bad"... -either way gives the same result, just in different directions- ... You would increasingly {proportionally relative to the limit reached} begin to understand your current place { This is a relation of experience from your own relatively balanced vantage point to that of your own limit (+ ve or -ve) }. And I'd wager that you'd begin to be thankful that you are, in fact, HERE.]


Moreover, it would be very easy to break down, by merely moving in a different direction and not going with the hellish flow.


Yes. You would need to "counter" with enough efficiency in order to create a newly restored balance.

In physics terms, it would be like applying a frictionnal force to the "hellish flow", as you termed it. This, simply put, means that there will not be an instantaneous reinstatement of balance... Rather, a gradient, where PERCEVERENCE [in terms of keeping this frictionnal force applied] is the KEY FACTOR.


Oddly, using physics analogies can lead us to interesting ideas, specifically the analogies of thermodynamics. For there to be an unremitting canned=pressurized hell which is eternal there must be infinite energy to maintain it, or there must be the state of superfluidity at near zer o temperatures as in superconduction.

...Or both. Extreme heat and extreme cold realative to your own vantage point are both negative; but relative to each other, are opposites. They can co-exist in a parallel state, both being on the "negative side" of your originally balanced perception.

Keep in mind however, that an infinate input of energy is, in my opinion, related with the concept of infinity. And infinity is a VERY LARGE number. The implication is, that there ARE boundaries.


You see, the conservation of momentum needed to sustain a perpetual charge would only really be possible in a zero temperature supercondusive enviroment...


I think that a charge is in the form of potential... I'd agree that great potential can be found in a "non-moving" [read: completely balanced] environment.

But I'd also say that once movement began, that is, kinetic energy began expressing, non-movement [equating to your zero temeperature statement] would begin exhibiting an increase in T relative with an increase in movement... [To a crittical limit, that once surpassed would be like a chain reaction... An example of Chaos, or, self perpetuating [feedback-like related] movement in a particular direction]...

You can only really perceive various directions from a mid-point perspective relative to all the possible available directions... So... from a balanced stand point... or... from a crossroad, where you can see all roads available...
It implies equillibrium... Where the resulting sum potential of each direction equals zero.


...hell would really be made from the previous spin and energy of our habits.


Agreed. And we all know, that no matter how difficult it may seem in the beginning, habits can be influenced with an attitude of perceverence. That is, can be changed if you really put in the effort. Effort = work... Where work is m a d.

That means, if everyone is to "balance out", that enough work must be put in by every individual to collectively counter the distance that which has been deviated from the point of origin.


However, given the physical nature of this scenario there would have to be a superconductive container which maintained the appropriate conditions, and it would have to be hermetically sealed, then cooled and maintained at that temperature which again takes enormous sums of energy.


Yes. The energy you mention is effort.

To be "maintained at that temperature", where cooled only means less movement- so decreased Kinetic and a proportionnal increase in Potential - can be exhibited through equillibrium, where, once in balance, the potential to move in any given direction becomes available [Please refer to "snowball analogy" for a simplified illustration]
=====================


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: HELL [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2173403 - 12/12/03 07:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Totally with Jiva.
I'm digging all these conceptualizations of Hell as a rational system. I can only really picture it being non-rational, but then, maybe angels really do have navels... :tongue2:

On an a slightly different note, I've got a question regarding biblical Hell...

So Satan is supposed to be constantly trying to get us to commit sin, right?  So I take it he likes sin.  Why would he then set it up so that everyone who did all the sin-committing gets punished?  Wouldn't it make more sense if (biblical) Hell was 'all sin, all the time' and such?  'Cause I might go in for that, constant sex, food, sleep, drugs and general chicanery...


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: HELL [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2173924 - 12/13/03 01:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hell is alienation from GOD. This refers to a condition of eternal existence 'outside of' the Divine Presence, with self-awareness of the condition, or again, self-awareness of self-awareness. If you think the emotion of boredom means anything on Earth, contemplate an eternal state of one's own mere self-awareness, or perhaps an eternity with the finite contents of one's life experience played back ad infinitum, and no escape. Why, that would drive any soul into any exit - even rebirth in sub-human realms, if such an exit became available. Eternal suffocation, eternal burning, the morbid human imagination alone can conceive of many Hells. Most frightening is the possibilty of conditions so horrible, one has never even imagined them. I do not wish to 'know' Hell.

"Think not of Heaven Faust - think of Hell."
- from Goethe's 'Faust'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: HELL [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2174576 - 12/13/03 01:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

mark: Hell is alienation from GOD

also known as: alienation from DELUSION


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: HELL [Re: Positronius]
    #2174637 - 12/13/03 02:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
mark: Hell is alienation from GOD

also known as: alienation from DELUSION




We are all deluded, man. Maybe you have things completely backwards.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: HELL [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2174662 - 12/13/03 02:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

to me hell(as a youngster) was a thing created by christianity and other religions to bring fear to the heart, and in turn keep you coming back..I now realize: Hell is the self created reality of everything you hate, a world where all the misery you bottled up is layed out for you to live. Kinda like Markos said, its seperation from "god" or rather, from the higher mind/conciousness that every human has the power to tap into. If your in "hell" its because of you and your thoughts, in other words, there is no God deciding when you die whether you go to heaven or hell with a iron fist. I agree there is such thing as hell on earth, and many people live it. There is a difference from being in a horrible place in the world, starved and cold, with no one to console in, and living in the same conditions in your mind, but the difference is large.. even though you cant control the crap that the world throws at you, you cant take it with a posative mindset and wisdom to turn negative into learning and possative... but if you dont... you go 1 inch deeper in the waters of.... HELL


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: HELL [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2174839 - 12/13/03 03:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

fireworks:Maybe you have things completely backwards.

maybe not! maybe you shouldnt make such brash pompous statements.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: HELL [Re: Positronius]
    #2174846 - 12/13/03 04:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
fireworks:Maybe you have things completely backwards.

maybe not! maybe you shouldnt make such brash pompous statements.




Maybe I was just replying to your "brash, pompous statement". Hell (get it? :lol: ), you didn't really enlighten us to your point of view, did you? Making short statements like that makes you seem pompous.

Going to go in a little depth in your point of view, to carry on with the flow of the discussion, or are you just going to make more brash, pompous statements? :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: HELL [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2174875 - 12/13/03 04:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

hell can't be rationalized, if it even exists. so don't try


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: HELL [Re: TODAY]
    #2175008 - 12/13/03 05:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

my point was - Markos stated that hell was alienation from his belief in god, which insinuated that when someone doesnt believe in what he believes in, they will be in hell, which is a silly delusional belief. dig?


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: HELL [Re: Positronius]
    #2175015 - 12/13/03 05:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
my point was - Markos stated that hell was alienation from his belief in god, which insinuated that when someone doesnt believe in what he believes in, they will be in hell, which is a silly delusional belief. dig?




I don't think that it was what he was implying, but perhaps he was. What you are saying, though, I would take as being a silly, delusional belief, so ja, I dig. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: HELL [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2175030 - 12/13/03 05:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

so you think it is delusional to think that the belief that god is the only objective truth is actually a subjective delusion>?

please elaborate as to how this is delusional.

lemme break it down:

markos- hell is alienation from god (which implies that god is the only possible reality and alienation from this only possibility is hell)

me - um, no...thats delusional

you - no you are delusional for thinking thats delusional

me - how so?>


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: HELL [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2175107 - 12/13/03 05:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Life on Earth can be 'Hellish,' as in war and plagues and concentration camps and persecutions, etc. But 'Hellish' is an adjective, and 'Hell' in the Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim or Christian traditions refers to a metaphysical Reality. For the Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim traditions, the soul may experience the eternal Hell, but mercifully, does not remain in it for eternity. The first two traditions allow for rebirth and reincarnation, respectively, and Muslims eventually gain Heaven after the purification of Hell 'burns away' the corruption. Only mainstream Christian traditions hold to eternal damnation. This was not always so since transmigration of the soul was an allowable belief in Catholic Christianity until 530 A.D. when it was rejected at the Church Council at Chalcedon, because it afforded too much time for a soul to be saved.

Whether one believes in GOD who exacts judgement (as illustrated in an Egyptian papyrus that I own, of the Heart being weighed against a feather), or in the cosmic mechanics of karma, I think it unwise and presumptuous to proclaim with no basis for such proclamation that Hell does not exist. I believe that true love enters human experience from a Transcendental Source, just as virulent evil breaks into humans from infernal sources way below the human level of being. But that's just me.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: HELL [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2175116 - 12/13/03 05:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You rule, man. Keep posting, man, I was scared that you were gone for good. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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