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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Jews and Guns
    #22353713 - 10/09/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson says that if German Jews had guns before WWII, fewer would have been murdered by Hitler.

He said: “I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed. I’m telling you there is a reason these dictatorial people take guns first...

...through a combination of removing guns and disseminating propaganda, the Nazis were able to carry out their evil intentions with relatively little resistance." ~ ABC News

By analogy, he suggests that the US government could never become dictatorial precisely because the American people are well-armed and would not stand for it. This being the founders' intent when they wrote the Second, which says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State...".

What do you think? Agree or disagree?
Do you agree with Ben Carson?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (10/09/15 07:01 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: Diploid]
    #22353797 - 10/09/15 09:24 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Ben Carson rocks

Watch him pwn some socialist hags:

Dr. Ben Carson on Gun Control | The View


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353936 - 10/09/15 09:54 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Great!  Let's hear his mental healthcare platform.  I'm all fucking ears.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
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Re: Jews and Guns [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354007 - 10/09/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Great!  Let's hear his mental healthcare platform.  I'm all fucking ears.




Maybe we can go back to the days of locking them up in institutions...


--------------------
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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354018 - 10/09/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Great!  Let's hear his mental healthcare platform.  I'm all fucking ears.




Maybe we can go back to the days of locking them up in institutions...




What do you mean back in the day?

http://nicic.gov/mentalillness



--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Posts: 8,602
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Re: Jews and Guns [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354024 - 10/09/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

We only seem to lock them up AFTER they commit crimes, used to be some preemption involved...


--------------------
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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354159 - 10/09/15 10:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
We only seem to lock them up AFTER they commit crimes, used to be some preemption involved...




If the right wants to keep blaming mental illness instead of guns then they can put together a fucking platform to fix it.

I doubt the people will go for 'lock them all up' but you never know.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354620 - 10/09/15 01:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You can't just "lock people up" because there isn't always an obvious sign that they need to be locked up. There are many forms of mental illness from simple depression to psychopathic killer, and not all of them merit locking up.

What is needed is ready, easy, free access to mental health services. This isn't even available to people with otherwise full health insurance coverage. Most health plans I've seen provide for broken legs and flu shots, but if you're depressed, you're on your own. Your broken leg doctor will tell you to contact the country health department or some such cop out because your plan doesn't cover psychiatry.

And if you don't have insurance, you can't even self-pay; psychiatrists won't take you as a patient. I have a friend who recently tried to get help for ADD that's causing him trouble at work. He called several psychiatrists. Each call started with him being asked which health insurance company will pay. When he answered that he has no coverage for mental health, they refused to take him even as a self-pay, which as it happens he couldn't afford anyway. The first visit to a shrink alone is often several hundred dollars and that doesn't cover testing, meds, and all the rest.

Until our society gets over the baggage that comes with the phrase "mental illness" and we realize that part of the cost of calling ourselves civilized is taking up the bill to keep our citizens physically and mentally healthy, crazy people will continue to wig out and kill. We need to decide which expense is the greater: massacres or free mental health treatment for all.

Obamacare, for all the good it has done people who would otherwise have to just live sick, fails miserably on mental health.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 45 minutes
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: Diploid]
    #22354628 - 10/09/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Diploid can we can some moderation in this sub?
Moderation?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (10/09/15 10:23 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: Diploid]
    #22354630 - 10/09/15 01:24 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You can't just "lock people up" because there isn't always an obvious sign that they need to be locked up. There are many forms of mental illness from simple depression to psychopathic killer, and not all of them merit locking up.

What is needed is ready, easy, free access to mental health services. This isn't even available to people with otherwise full health insurance coverage. Most health plans I've seen provide for broken legs and flu shots, but if you're depressed, you're on your own. Your broken leg doctor will tell you to contact the country health department or some such cop out because your plan doesn't cover psychiatry.

And if you don't have insurance, you can't even self-pay; psychiatrists won't take you as a patient. I have a friend who recently tried to get help for ADD that's causing him trouble at work. He called several psychiatrists. Each call started with him being asked which health insurance company will pay. When he answered that he has no coverage for mental health, they refused to take him even as a self-pay, which as it happens he couldn't afford anyway. The first visit to a shrink alone is often several hundred dollars and that doesn't cover testing, meds, and all the rest.

Until our society gets over the baggage that comes with the phrase "mental illness" and we realize that part of the cost of calling ourselves civilized is taking up the bill to keep our citizens physically and mentally healthy, crazy people will continue to wig out and kill. We need to decide which expense is the greater: massacres or free mental health treatment for all.

Obamacare, for all the good it has done people who would otherwise have to just live sick, fails miserably on mental health.




I agree and I'd love to see the GOP put together a platform that would insure everyone gets the mental healthcare they need.

Sadly I think they're just scapegoating the gun control issue.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
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Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354727 - 10/09/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
You can't just "lock people up" because there isn't always an obvious sign that they need to be locked up. There are many forms of mental illness from simple depression to psychopathic killer, and not all of them merit locking up.

What is needed is ready, easy, free access to mental health services. This isn't even available to people with otherwise full health insurance coverage. Most health plans I've seen provide for broken legs and flu shots, but if you're depressed, you're on your own. Your broken leg doctor will tell you to contact the country health department or some such cop out because your plan doesn't cover psychiatry.

And if you don't have insurance, you can't even self-pay; psychiatrists won't take you as a patient. I have a friend who recently tried to get help for ADD that's causing him trouble at work. He called several psychiatrists. Each call started with him being asked which health insurance company will pay. When he answered that he has no coverage for mental health, they refused to take him even as a self-pay, which as it happens he couldn't afford anyway. The first visit to a shrink alone is often several hundred dollars and that doesn't cover testing, meds, and all the rest.

Until our society gets over the baggage that comes with the phrase "mental illness" and we realize that part of the cost of calling ourselves civilized is taking up the bill to keep our citizens physically and mentally healthy, crazy people will continue to wig out and kill. We need to decide which expense is the greater: massacres or free mental health treatment for all.

Obamacare, for all the good it has done people who would otherwise have to just live sick, fails miserably on mental health.






I agree and I'd love to see the GOP put together a platform that would insure everyone gets the mental healthcare they need.

Sadly I think they're just scapegoating the gun control issue.




Dems seem to be pretty good at "health" mandates, you know us gop'rs, "if it ain't about money, then it ain't about me"

Gun control? Every measure I've seen put forward, wouldn't have prevented the mass killings, surely you mean "gun confiscation"


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: Diploid]
    #22354744 - 10/09/15 02:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

On the subject of the op I disagree with Carson.  Antisemitism, military training, and military technology would have been enough for ww2 to go down the way it did rather or not the Jews had been armed.

Likewise if the might of the US military was turned on us we wouldn't stand a chance.  Maybe it was the intent of the founding Fathers but military technology has far surpassed what civilians can afford let alone legally own.

As time goes on and drone technology is used more the gap gets wider.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Posts: 8,602
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Re: Jews and Guns [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354762 - 10/09/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
On the subject of the op I disagree with Carson.  Antisemitism, military training, and military technology would have been enough for ww2 to go down the way it did rather or not the Jews had been armed.

Likewise if the might of the US military was turned on us we wouldn't stand a chance.  Maybe it was the intent of the founding Fathers but military technology has far surpassed what civilians can afford let alone legally own.

As time goes on and drone technology is used more the gap gets wider.




I think you overestimate the govts ability turn the military against us, I've discussed this with many servicemen, even if only half of them refused, that would be more than plenty to mount an offensive against your liberal socialist Marxist tyrannical govt...


--------------------
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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354767 - 10/09/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Dems seem to be pretty good at "health" mandates, you know us gop'rs, "if it ain't about money, then it ain't about me"




That's kinda my point.  If the issue is mental health as the gop claims then they can put together a platform for it.  Otherwise it's just scapegoating.

Quote:

Gun control? Every measure I've seen put forward, wouldn't have prevented the mass killings, surely you mean "gun confiscation"




You're strawmanning, either intentionally or not.  I know many liberals that own guns and support gun control.  Gun control is not gun confiscation.  That's a strawman argument being pushed by the NRA.

What it does mean?

Banning the manufacture and sale of assault weapons and extended clips.  If you already own it, great.  Eventually it will end up in the trash or a museum as you're not legally allowed to sell it.

A better system for background checks and closing the gun show loophole.

Personally I would like to see guns regulated like cars.  If you commit a violent crime you can not purchase a gun for a period of time as your gun license is suspended.  If your gun is used by someone else to commit a crime you can be held accountable.  Gun licenses would have a waiting period of at least a month.  This waiting period could be reduced by successfully completing a gun safety course and showing that you've purchased a gun safe for your weapons.  If you commit a crime using a gun you should lose your gun license permanently.

Guns should be heavily taxed.  These taxes should mostly work as an incentive to encourage the purchase of gun safes, trigger locks, and the completion of gun safety courses via point of sale tax breaks.  Tax revenue for guns should go towards public awareness campaigns that teach people how to be responsible gun owners as well as the aforementioned gun safety courses.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354770 - 10/09/15 02:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I think you overestimate the govts ability turn the military against us, I've discussed this with many servicemen, even if only half of them refused, that would be more than plenty to mount an offensive against your liberal socialist Marxist tyrannical govt...




I tend to agree that this position is overstated.  Note that it's actually Carson's position, that we need guns to defend us against government corruption.

However, we have a technologically advanced military that's quite capable of outgunning us if it wanted too.  That's my point.  Not rather or not service men would pull the trigger.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (10/09/15 02:34 PM)


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
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Re: Jews and Guns [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354930 - 10/09/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Dems seem to be pretty good at "health" mandates, you know us gop'rs, "if it ain't about money, then it ain't about me"




That's kinda my point.  If the issue is mental health as the gop claims then they can put together a platform for it.  Otherwise it's just scapegoating.

Quote:

Gun control? Every measure I've seen put forward, wouldn't have prevented the mass killings, surely you mean "gun confiscation"




You're strawmanning, either intentionally or not.  I know many liberals that own guns and support gun control.  Gun control is not gun confiscation.  That's a strawman argument being pushed by the NRA.

What it does mean?

Banning the manufacture and sale of assault weapons and extended clips.  If you already own it, great.  Eventually it will end up in the trash or a museum as you're not legally allowed to sell it.

A better system for background checks and closing the gun show loophole.

Personally I would like to see guns regulated like cars.  If you commit a violent crime you can not purchase a gun for a period of time as your gun license is suspended.  If your gun is used by someone else to commit a crime you can be held accountable.  Gun licenses would have a waiting period of at least a month.  This waiting period could be reduced by successfully completing a gun safety course and showing that you've purchased a gun safe for your weapons.  If you commit a crime using a gun you should lose your gun license permanently.

Guns should be heavily taxed.  These taxes should mostly work as an incentive to encourage the purchase of gun safes, trigger locks, and the completion of gun safety courses via point of sale tax breaks.  Tax revenue for guns should go towards public awareness campaigns that teach people how to be responsible gun owners as well as the aforementioned gun safety courses.




So basically outlaw ownership or make it so prohibitively expensive to own one that only the rich will have them? And I thought you were for equality...


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354946 - 10/09/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

If you can't afford a trigger lock and a gun safe you can't afford a gun.

The gun safety courses, as I said, would be paid for by tax revenue.

If you have a gun safe and have completed the gun safety course you wouldn't have to pay the gun tax.  Like I said, it's there mostly as an incentive for responsible gun ownership.

*edit*  Are you suggesting we set up a gun welfare program?  Guns already cost enough that not everyone can afford them.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (10/09/15 03:13 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22355103 - 10/09/15 03:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Likewise if the might of the US military was turned on us we wouldn't stand a chance.  Maybe it was the intent of the founding Fathers but military technology has far surpassed what civilians can afford let alone legally own.

I don't buy this. If what you say was true, ISIS, taliban, and al-Qaeda wouldn't be as successful as they are against coalitions of the most powerful military forces on the planet.

Had the Jews taken up arms and committed to defending themselves decisively against Hitler, things would have gone down differently for them, IMO.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: Diploid]
    #22355147 - 10/09/15 04:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You're talking about insurgent forces.  Not civilians.  Military could cut off our food supply and wait it out.  In fact I've linked an article here before talking about the possibility of militia staving off military aggression.  I'll see if I can dig it up.

In the meantime look at some of the tactics Germany used against resistors, both armed and unarmed, during ww2.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/grobres.html


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Jews and Guns [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22355176 - 10/09/15 04:11 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Here's that article.  Note that the military in this scenario, at least superficially, respects the rule of law and tries to minimize casualties.  The militia still loses.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2012/11/15/how-the-u-s-military-would-crush-a-tea-party-rebellion/


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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