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OfflineEllis Dee
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Test your knowledge of gun control:
    #386763 - 09/06/01 03:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Test your knowledge of gun control:



If these people had assault weapons, they would probably (check all that apply):

___ rob liquor stores
___ engage in drive-by shootings
___ leave them lying around where their kids could find them
___ blow away motorists during traffic disputes
___ go on schoolyard rampages
___ accidentally kill friends and family members
___ none of the above

Might there be a moral, historically justified need for "non-sporting" arms in the hands of "average citizens?" The next time someone tells you we need to ban "assault weapons," ask them to take this test. Why not send a copy of it to the politicians who represent you and see how they answer ?

By David Codrea




--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #386787 - 09/06/01 04:19 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Surley the issue is not how specific individuals would behave, but the overall effect on society. Responsible people will always exist, but so will irresponsible people.

Is it better to remove the firearms from the irresponsible people by banning them outright, or do you allow people to have firearms accepting that some people will misuse them in the ways you have mentioned above?

Personally I would support a ban as I live in a country where firearms are already illegal, and this has only positive effects. Whether this would work in America though, I don't know.

Take care



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Phyl]
    #386806 - 09/06/01 05:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well Phyl, your support for gun control is held by a lot of distinguished types too. Here's some examples:



Adolf Hitler ~~~~~~~ Joseph Stalin ~ Mao Tse Tung ~~~ Pol Pot


Like you, these men supported gun control.


_____________


Only positive effects from gun control eh? If you're in the UK you have drastically increased street crime since the gun ban. The yardies are the only ones armed over there aren't they? Aren't ordinary citizens unable to adaquatly protect themselves?






--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #386809 - 09/06/01 05:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

PS

If you ever stay up at night thinking about what could happen without a gun maybe this poster can help you sleep better, just print it up poster size and stick it in your window.



Pleasant dreams.

Take care, RG





--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #386814 - 09/06/01 05:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If you're in the UK you have drastically increased street crime since the gun ban.
LOL... There may be drastically incrased street crime, but hardly any of it involves guns in any way shape or form. Most street crime is related to the prohibition of addictive drugs.

The yardies are the only ones armed over there aren't they?
The 'Yardies' do have guns. They will also have guns if there is no gun control. This is not an issue of gun control but the social circumatances that put them there in the first place.
Gun control is not 100% effective, nobody claimed it is, but I believe it does have many benefits. Compare figures for gun related crimes, and shooting in the UK to those in the US or in other countries where guns are openly on sale, and you'll see what I mean.

Aren't ordinary citizens unable to adaquatly protect themselves?
Yes they are. 'Ordinary' citizens do not need guns to protect themselves, as it's extremely rare that they would ever be threatened with a gun.
Those people who do come into contact with guns, and need guns to protect themselves are definately not 'Ordinary' citizens.

I'm not saying gun control would work in the US. For a system like that to work, it needs the support of the public, and I believe there are far too many people attached to their guns in the US for it to work. I am simply pointing out that it can be sucessful.

Take care



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Phyl]
    #386821 - 09/06/01 06:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree gun control works. But what it works to do is to keep law abiding citizens from being able to defend themselves. This is how gun control in the UK, europe, and OZ works:

When legal firearms are removed from the ownership of ordinary people crime increases.

Newcastle, in the north of England is now the most dangerous city in the industrialized world. Britians home office, more of less equivelant to our Justice Department reports that "incidence of violence against the person" which includes aggravated assult, rape, and murder, are the highest in Newcastle with a rate of 236.5 per 1,000 residents.
Home burglaries and auto thefts occur 50 percent more frequently in Britain than in the U.S. Even worse is there is 75 percent more rapes in Britain than in the U.S., even though Britain has only about 25 percent of our population.

--------

You have 75% more rapes and 25% of the citizens. Wow, nothing like unarmed women to rape, is there? It nice to know that your victim is unarmed and unable to stop you from violating, robbing, or killing them! It's great to be a crook in the UK isn't it? You bet!

Bottom line. We have slightly more homicides and a lot less of all the other types of violent crimes. And the criminals are the only ones that are armed. It works all right! It works to increase crime and create infinatly more potential victims of all types of crime.

Take care, RG



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #386824 - 09/06/01 06:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Newcastle, in the north of England is now the most dangerous city in the industrialized world. Britians home office, more of less equivelant to our Justice Department reports that "incidence of violence against the person" which includes aggravated assult, rape, and murder, are the highest in Newcastle with a rate of 236.5 per 1,000 residents.
Home burglaries and auto thefts occur 50 percent more frequently in Britain than in the U.S. Even worse is there is 75 percent more rapes in Britain than in the U.S., even though Britain has only about 25 percent of our population.


You're somewhat missing the point. These crimes do not generally involve guns.

Britain does have a problem with crime though - 98% of burglaries and other thefts are related to drug prohibition. Assaults are related to the culture of binge drinking. Auto thefts are related to bordom and lack of facilities for youths. Rape is a product of our warped society.

Having open access to guns does nothing to address the underlying causes of these problems, and rather than solving the problem would divert them to another area. Treating the symptoms of any problem will not solve it if the cause remains unaddressed.

Take care



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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #386832 - 09/06/01 06:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i would like to point out that we don't have "a few more homicides", we have 7 times as many per 100,000 people.



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: MrKurtz]
    #386838 - 09/06/01 06:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ok here's the most recent comparison of murder rates I can find:


U.S. and International Murder Rates Compared

Suicide and Homicide Rates in 86 Nations
The accompanying table gives suicide and homicide rates for all 86 nations for which data are available. Rates are per 100,000 population and come from the United Nations 1996 Demographic Yearbook published in 1998. Note that the latest U.S. suicide rate (for 1997) is 11.1, slightly below the 11.9 listed, while the 1997 U.S. homicide rate is 7.4 (as reported by the National Center for Health Statistics), far below the 9.4 listed here. Figures exceeding published U.S. figures are starred, while those exceeding only the most recent (1997) U.S. figures are doubly starred. The 1997 U.S. figures are preliminary. For a more contemporaneous comparison, the singly starred figures should be stressed.


(RATES PER 100,000 POPULATION)

Nation Suicide Homicide
Albania 2.1 5.5
Argentina 6.6 4.4
Austria 22.2* 1.0
Azerbaijan 0.7 8.9**
Bahamas 1.2 10.8*
Bahrain 3.1 0.4
Barbados 6.4 6.4
Balarus 27.9* 10.4*
Belgium 18.7* 1.7
Brazil 3.5 19.0*
Bulgaria 17.3* 19.0*
Canada 13.4* 1.7
Cape Verde 2.4 1.7
Chile 5.7 2.9
China 17.6* 1.4
Colombia 3.5 80.0*
Costa Rica 5.0 5.6
Croatia 22.8* 3.3
Cuba 20.3* 7.8**
Czech Republic 18.6* 2.1
Denmark 22.3* 4.9
Dominican Republic 2.1 4.8
Ecuador 4.8 13.4*
Egypt 0.0 0.5
El Salvador 8.9 27.4*
Estonia 40.1* 22.2*
Finland 27.2* 2.9
France 20.8* 1.1
Georgia 3.6 2.8
Germany 15.8* 1.1
Greece 3.3 1.3
Guatemala 0.5 1.3
Guyana 1.7 0.3
Hong Kong 11.8** 1.2
Hungary 32.9* 3.5
Iceland 9.4 0.4
Ireland 9.1 0.6
Isle of Man 9.9 1.4
Israel 6.5 1.4
Italy 8.2 1.7
Japan 16.7* 0.6
Kazakhstan 28.6* 19.4*
Korea, South 9.4 1.6
Kuwait 1.9 1.7
Kyrgyzstan 13.4* 12.1*
Latvia 40.7* 18.2*
Lithuania 45.6* 11.7*
Luxembourg 15.4* 0.7
Macao 6.1 3.7
Malta 4.1 0.8
Martinique 12.8* 4.3
Mauritius 1.4 0.2
Mexico 3.2 17.2*
Moldova 18.4* 16.5*
Netherlands 9.8 1.2
New Zealand 14.7* 2.0
Nicaragua 3.3 5.5
Norway 12.3* 0.8
Panama 3.0 5.2
Paraguay 2.3 9.8*
Philippines 1.3 11.5*
Poland 14.2* 2.8
Portugal 8.2 1.7
Puerto Rico 8.8 23.8*
Romania 12.3* 4.1
Russia 41.2* 30.6*
Sao Tome 1.1 15.1*
Singapore 13.4* 1.8
Slovenia 28.4* 2.4
Spain 8.1 0.9
Suriname 12.9* 1.5
Sweden 15.3* 1.0
Switzerland 21.4* 2.7
Tajikistan 3.7 10.4*
Trinidad 11.8** 11.7*
Turkmenistan 5.3 4.0
Ukraine 22.5* 11.3*
United Kingdom 8.0 0.9
United States (as per the United Nations) 11.9 9.4
U.S.A. (as per the U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1997) 11.1 7.0***
Uruguay 10.3 4.4
Uzbekistan 6.2 4.3
Venezuela 5.1 15.7*
Yugoslavia 15.3* 2.0
Zimbabwe 7.5 6.9

*Figures exceeding U.S. figures at time of publication.
**Figures exceeding most recent (1997) U.S. figures, shown in parentheses.
***This rate decreased by over 7 percent in 1998 to 6.3
Source: United Nations 1996 Demographic Yearbook published in 1998

Japan vs. the United States: murder and suicide rates
Japan's murder rate averages 0.6 per 100,000, but its suicide rate is 16.7, for a combined rate of 17.3 per 100,000. The U.S. murder rate averages 7.0 per 100,000, and the suicide rate is 11.1, for a combined total of 18.1 per 100,000. Thus, the combined murder and suicide rates in Japan and the U.S. are nearly equal even though firearms are virtually non-existent in Japan. (Source: National Safety Council's 1997 Accident Facts and the United Nations' 1996 Demographic Yearbook)




--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #386863 - 09/06/01 08:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

A) Gun Control did not cause the Holocaust.
B) Just because some bad people supported the same thing I do (gun control), that doesn't make it a bad thing. One political idea does not make an entire regime.
C) Not many females carry guns in the US. Honestly, if I was fucked up enough to rape a girl, I wouldn't worry about her having a gun. My worries would be in the form of getting caught. If I was worried about a weapon at all, it would be mace. Not to mention most cases of rape are by people you know. Which would make it less likely for a girl to even shoot a rapist, I would think.
D) Comparing different stats for different countries completely ignores the fact that these are different cultures, different places, with different people in different situations. My point being? It doesn't really mean that much for either side.

http://www.captainjackmusic.com


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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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OfflineoDin
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Captain Jack]
    #387186 - 09/06/01 06:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Comparing different stats for different countries completely ignores the fact that these are different cultures, different places, with different people in different situations. My point being? It doesn't really mean that much for either side."

exactly...so why does everyone compare the US to europe as such? only when its suits their needs. I have a hard time when a person of a different culture is off sayin how we (USA) need gun control....and also when said person is from a different culture within the USA. I say if thats what some person from NYC wants so be it. but leave me and my state out of it.

-----------------------------------------------------------
fuck bellarus...everyone is bitching about someone else...didnt want to get left behind


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: oDin]
    #387336 - 09/06/01 10:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, if we're going to split into different cultural groups, states within the US is not an appropriate manner either. Views within each state vary just as wildly as they do nation wide. I certainly don't agree with a lot of the actions taken by the Virginia government.

So why can't we fight the gun issue on a national level?

(by the way, I try to avoid even favorable comparisons to other culture's stats).

http://www.captainjackmusic.com


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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Captain Jack]
    #387609 - 09/07/01 02:14 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If you're a European that wants gun control in the USA I've got one question for you. Are you from the part of Europe whos' ass we kicked, or are you from the part of Europe whos' ass we saved?



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Captain Jack]
    #387646 - 09/07/01 03:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Captain Jack,

I disagree with you. Gun control / gun confiscation was a factor contributing to the holocaust. There is a common history held by a lot more of genocides than just the german holocaust of world war two.

Among others these Nanking residents might disagree with you.



In mid-December, 1937, the Japanese army invaded China and overran Nanking. They disarmed its one million inhabitants, then embarked on a six-week campaign of terror, bloodshed and death.

Nanking's helpless citizens were subjected to the most heinous abuse: the fortunate ones were used for bayonet practice, decapitated in beheading contests, burned to death, or machine-gunned by the tens of thousands. They were fortunate because they died quickly.

The unfortunate ones were tortured to death, buried alive or subjected to deadly "medical experiments." Tens of thousands of young girls, pregnant women -- even elderly grandmothers -- were brutally and repeatedly raped, often until they hemorrhaged to death, or were mutilated in unspeakable fashions. Unborn babies were hacked out of wombs and bayoneted for sport.

The Japanese army killed up to 500,000 innocent Nanking residents. Japan has yet to acknowledge, not to mention atone for, this atrocity.

Think about this the next time Japan and other civilized societies suggests that ordinary citizens should not be armed.




--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #387649 - 09/07/01 03:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Gun Control:
Legacy of Blood

Turkey established gun control in 1911. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938. From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and other "undesirables" who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Gun control didn't make any of the 56 million (that's 56,000,000) people exterminated in the Twentieth Century safer. Gun Control didn't protect the 16,914 Americans murdered in 1998, or the 18,208 murdered in 1997, either.

Gun control simply created millions of disarmed, defenseless victims.

Gun control kills.





--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #387687 - 09/07/01 04:24 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It makes absoloutly no difference to me whether you have gun control or not. I wasn't saying that you need it, but that despite what you think it CAN work effectivly with the support of the public.

My major problem was with you saying WE need to abolish gun control for the good of OUR country, which is totally hypocritical when you bash others for having opinions on America.



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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Phyl]
    #387698 - 09/07/01 05:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Phyl, sorry if pressing gun legalization in the UK is the the impression you got from me. I didn't mean anything I said to be hypocritical. I apolagize if it was. Lets just forget about that and continue our debate, you're very intelligent and I enjoy the discussion we've been having.

Let's examine the effect of gun control on crimes committed with gun and other weapons.

You said,'You're somewhat missing the point. These crimes do not generally involve guns.'

I would bet that they involved some other type of weapon just as often as they would have used a gun if guns were widely available. I don't have stats available on the use of various weapons in violent crime in the UK but I do for the US. It should parallel for the UK though, with slight differences.

Since 1996 the use of knives in commision of violent crimes has been on the rise, This coorosponds to the drop in crimes committed with guns. The knives take up the slack from guns.

You said,'Britain does have a problem with crime though - 98% of burglaries and other thefts are related to drug prohibition. Assaults are related to the culture of binge drinking. Auto thefts are related to bordom and lack of facilities for youths. Rape is a product of our warped society.

Having open access to guns does nothing to address the underlying causes of these problems, and rather than solving the problem would divert them to another area. Treating the symptoms of any problem will not solve it if the cause remains unaddressed.'


Well on the same note, not allowing firearms also does nothing to address the underlying problems, and rather than solving the problem merely diverts it to another area. Gun control does not solve violence or even effectivly treat it. Rather it causes it to increase by creating a populace unable to effectivly protect itself from those elements of society that wish to commit violent crimes.

Tell a woman in an ER that her rapist didn't use a gun as she cries her heart out to the doctor and police. Will that comfort her in her grief? No. But if she had been empowered with a firearm, the skill to employ it effectivly in defence, and a concealed carry permit the whole tragedy might have been averted by the death or serious injury to the would be rapist. And that would be an infinatly better outcome than a helpless innocent ladie being brutally raped.

Take care, RG



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #387704 - 09/07/01 06:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I would bet that they involved some other type of weapon just as often as they would have used a gun if guns were widely available.
This is true if you include fists as a weapon, but my opinion on this is that the less guns are used the better. By allowing guns to be available to all, they will be put into situations where they are currently very rare, and thus make the situation worse.

If I was ever in a situation where I was threatened, I would much rather be thretened by a knife or with fists than by a gun.

Well on the same note, not allowing firearms also does nothing to address the underlying problems, and rather than solving the problem merely diverts it to another area.
Agreed it does nothing to address the underlying problems, but to add firearms to these situations can only lead to them becoming more dangerous for innocents who get involved.

Gun control does not solve violence or even effectivly treat it. Rather it causes it to increase by creating a populace unable to effectivly protect itself from those elements of society that wish to commit violent crimes.
Crime will always exist. I don't believe free access to guns will do anything to reduce crime. By allowing people to own guns for defence you are also allowing people to own guns for offence. This will not reduce crime, but will make existing crime far more dangerous.

Tell a woman in an ER that her rapist didn't use a gun as she cries her heart out to the doctor and police
Do you believe that if guns were openly available that the rapist still wouldn't have a gun?

But if she had been empowered with a firearm, the skill to employ it effectivly in defence, and a concealed carry permit the whole tragedy might have been averted by the death or serious injury to the would be rapist
If the rapist has a gun and the victim also has a gun, the only outcome would be that one of them ends up dead or seriously injured. If the lady pulled a gun on an armed rapist, it will lead to an extremely unstable stalemate situation. Both have much to lose, so who will pull the trigger first? I'd guess it would be 50/50.
If the lady had a can of mace, rather than a gun she would be able to disable her attacker and make her get away. No rapes, no deaths, surely a better situation for all involved.

Take Care



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OfflineoDin
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #387947 - 09/07/01 02:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i want to ask one question here. how are my guns that happen to be in a gun safe right now in any way a threat to you? now before you go on saying that its not my guns but others..just whos guns will a new law be taking away? certianly not the criminal's guns, for he is already breaking laws, but mine the dude that has them in a safe place, and would likely turn them in if forced to? why i ever starterd in on this abortion like discussion...again.. is beyond me...but i would bury/hide my guns before ever turning them in cause i have seen pics of FYugoslavia, indonesia the list goes on. and my friends and esp my woman will never go down like that. some of you have this perfect human behaviour dream via the UN that bad things will never happen "where i live" but it does. maybe standing there someday as five dirtbags rape your wife and then kill you would change your mind.

hope for the best...expect the worst


-----------------------------------------------------------
fuck bellarus...everyone is bitching about someone else...didnt want to get left behind


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: oDin]
    #389037 - 09/09/01 12:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well, the thing is, whenever a criminal gets arrested, his gun gets taken away, and is sold again for a very low price to help fund the police station (unless its an illegal gun of course, in which case they keep it in a ballistics lab or whatnot). if every time a criminal gets arrested his gun gets destroyed, in a few years there would be virtually no guns. and, i think there have been more then enough cases of handgun homicide that the carefree use of guns has been ruined for all. just because you might be a responsible gun owner, doesnt make it right.

as for "maybe standing there someday as five dirtbags rape your wife and then kill you would change your mind.", would it make a difference if they shot you first then raped your wife and shot her? if you seriously believe you can single handedly defend yourself against 5 armed men, why couldnt you defend yourself against 5 unarmed men?



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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #389075 - 09/09/01 01:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)


"Well on the same note, not allowing firearms also does nothing to address the underlying problems, and rather than solving the problem merely diverts it to another area. "

well, thats what just about every law does. if no one wanted to murder, then it wouldn't happen. but people do, so you have to make it illegal. and i'm sure you know about DARE and similar anti-drug programs. they are working they're asses off to try to nip the problem at the bud, but it isn't working in the least bit. laws aren't made to fix problems, they are made to lessen them. if america was a Utopian society (like we all wish it would be) then they're would be no problem with guns being legal, and you seem to be clinging to this belief (or the belief that one law abiding man with a gun will always succeed in defending himself from a criminal). i just fail to see guns being available to the public as a thing that improves society, the only valid reason that i can think of is that its in the bill of rights, and thats something that shouldn't be tampered with.



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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #389087 - 09/09/01 02:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)


"In mid-December, 1937, the Japanese army invaded China and overran Nanking. They disarmed its one million inhabitants, then embarked on a six-week campaign of terror, bloodshed and death."

well, to take the guns the people had to give them willingly wouldn't they? they had the chance to take up arms, the japanese just covered there tracks and took the guns away while the people were alone (i'm guessing they went disarming from house to house?). they knew the dangers of armed citizens, and made sure they're were none. if america was invaded, even if every citizen was armed to the teeth, if they willingly gave they're guns for fear of being arrested, it wouldn't make any difference.

"Think about this the next time Japan and other civilized societies suggests that ordinary citizens should not be armed."

now, this is crossing the line, comparing the government of japan today to its fascist goverment of world war 2. just because they both stood for gun control, doesn't mean they are anything alike. i would be quite surprised if the japanize push for american gun control is just a ploy to disarm american citizens so they can invade without any resistance from guerillas.



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Anonymous

Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: MrKurtz]
    #389400 - 09/09/01 03:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You raised an interesting point. Think about countries that would even consider attacking or invading us, not now of course, things are pretty calm. But in the future you never know. If a super power country like china or japan did decide to invade us, they would have to go through the most powerful army in the world. If they did get past them, imagine how hard it would be to keep millions of armed citizens fighting in their homeland, contained. It wouldn't happen.



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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: MrKurtz]
    #389413 - 09/09/01 03:54 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

oDin, of course your guns are not a threat to any innocent people. But to the criminals our guns certainly are a real threat, and a deterrent. Phyl admitted the fact that the Yardies (thugs) would have guns if there was no gun control and that they do with gun control. He basicly conceded that gun control only disarms regular citizens and not criminals.

Phyl, you said that the rapist would probably also have a gun. Thats possible. But then you went on to say there could be a stalemate because of it. Now that's not really likely. Anyone I know wouldn't draw on a criminal unless they were going to shoot them immediatly, at least I would. I wouldn't point a gun at someone unless I was going to shoot them. Using a gun as a threat is dangerous to the person doing the threatening and the person being threatened. On the other hand drawing and firing is dangerous only to the person being shot. That's how I see it.

McKurtz, I don't think my statements went too far as you said. In fact I don't think they went far enough. In every case where a large civilian group is disarmed they don't think there is an immediate danger from it or they more than likely wouldn't surrender their arms. Gun control makes you an easy victim for a foreign invader as well as from domestic threats. Without guns in the hands of the general public what's to stop your own nation from instituting genocide. You're also at a much greater risk from domestic violent criminals.

Take care, RG

PS McKurtz, I hope you looked at the murder rate for the USA and the UK and saw that your statement about ours being 7 times higher than theirs is dead wrong.

Edited by Rail_Gun on 09/09/01 03:09 PM.



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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: ]
    #389423 - 09/09/01 04:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

LoOnEr, actually during world war two the fact that American civilians are all armed heavily influenced the Empire of Japan's military policy. You're right about what you said about an armed populace being a deterrent. I don't think that we are now immune from invasion as you do however. Through out history there have been numerous invasions that happened when the party invaded didn't expect it. Hannible's invasion of the Roman Empire comes to mind as do dozens of other notable invasions.

This is how America's armed citizenry influenced Japan's military policy and may have kept us from being invaded:

Admiral Yamamoto: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." Advising Japan's military leaders of the futility of an invasion of the mainland United States because of the widespread availability of guns. It has been theorized that this was a major contributing factor in Japan's decision not to land on North America early in the war when they had vastly superior military strength. This delay gave our industrial infrastructure time to gear up for the conflict and was decisive in our later victory.

Take care, RG



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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineSolo
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #389636 - 09/09/01 08:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm pro choice on this issue. If you don't want to own a gun, don't! If you want to own one or ten for that matter, do so.



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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #389674 - 09/09/01 08:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well, if the american military was defeated, wouldnt bombing be much more likely then an invasion? and, if there was a crisis where america was invaded.. it would be easy to get guns to the general public, why would they need to be there already? hell, with your logic, america should be under military control all year round just in case there is a surprise invasion.

"Hannible's invasion of the Roman Empire comes to mind as do dozens of other notable invasions."

we have things called satellites now, if there was an army large enough to invade america coming, we would see it.





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Anonymous

Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: MrKurtz]
    #389766 - 09/09/01 10:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The thought of bombing the US during ww2 was highly unlikely. Japan couldn't just send bombers across the atlantic ocean, they needed a base close by... for them to have effective bombings on us, they would have to have ground control on our soil.. which wouldn't happen!



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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: ]
    #389784 - 09/09/01 11:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It was likely. The japs just didn't because they were too chicken to even stick around and take Hawaii. The bombing of the fleet at Pearl Harbor was the greatest naval disaster since the Spanish Armada. The japs could have taken Hawaii and used their aircraft carriers, battleships, destroyers, dreadnaughts, and super dreadnaughts to attack and invade the mainland. The politicians and public of the US knew that and were afraid of invasion, it was a real concern. Thankfully the japanese fleet turned tail after only 3 or so hours of attack and disapeared back into the pacific. 3 hours of surprise attack destroyed most of our pacific fleet and killed thousands of our soldiers. They could have kept attacking and taken all of the Hawaiian islands but they just left, thankfully. Their retreat gave us time to kick into gear and harness our industrial strength against the Empire of Japan, and eventually win the war.




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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #389932 - 09/10/01 03:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Phyl admitted the fact that the Yardies (thugs) would have guns if there was no gun control and that they do with gun control. He basicly conceded that gun control only disarms regular citizens and not criminals.
Whist I admit that some criminals still have guns under a policy of control, they are nowhere near as common as if openly on sale. In the UK at least, criminals with firearms are the exception not the rule. Having no gun control would ensure that all criminals have guns.

Anyone I know wouldn't draw on a criminal unless they were going to shoot them immediatly, at least I would. I wouldn't point a gun at someone unless I was going to shoot them. Using a gun as a threat is dangerous to the person doing the threatening and the person being threatened. On the other hand drawing and firing is dangerous only to the person being shot. That's how I see it.
That would be true assuming that the shot instantly killed the attacker. I can' say I've had any first hand experience with people being shot, but I believe if an attacker gets wounded and not killed by a gunshot, they would still be more than capable of shooting the person they were attacking.
For your ideas of defence through firearms to work, it would rely on people carrying their guns with them where ever they go and keeping them loaded and 'ready for action' at all time. What good is a gun locked in a gun cabinet, whilst you are being attacked in your bedroom?
Perhaps this would work in the US, but it is not something that I could ever see becoming accepted in the UK, and is a society I definately wouldn't want to be in. Every person has tollerance levels, and everyone can snap if provoked. Having been on the recieveing end of road rage incidents myself, I can only be thankful that my attacker was not armed.


Take care




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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #389940 - 09/10/01 04:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Admiral Yamamoto: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

This may have been true during WW2, but if any country were to invade the US now a days it would be a bombing campaigns, followed by long range atrillary attacks, helecopter gunships, tanks and APC's until the area was made 'safe' for ground troops.
There may be rifles behind each blade of grass, but they're not gonna help much if your attacker is out of range or behind a few inches of plate armour.

Take care



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OfflineSir Tokes-A-Lot
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #389972 - 09/10/01 05:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

why do you have pictures of holocaust victims you red necked inbred fascist son of a bitch?


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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Sir Tokes-A-Lot]
    #389997 - 09/10/01 07:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sir talks a lot, listen to me you father fucking little shit stain. If you would crawl out of the cum bubble you live in and use your third grade education to read this thread on your 13'' black and white moniter you would see why. To make my points about gun control being a contributing factor of the holocaust, to make a point about private arms ownership, and to support gun rights in general.

Now what's with all the childish name calling you started? Did I offend your little girl ego somehow? Or are you just the hate filled mean spirited, fascist fucko you accused me of being? Now I'm obviously not fascist, am I. I support truth justice, and the American way. Now on the other hand you support name calling, censorship, and pedophilia. You're severly mixed up my little sheep. In the past 2 or 3 days you have voiced your support for murdering jews in Israel, censorship, and a number of other messed up things. You're the fascist if anyone is!

So piss off you brown peckered, pimple popping, front tooth missing, hairy palmed, ass fucked bitch.



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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #390031 - 09/10/01 09:30 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I support truth justice, and the American way

LOL...

Take care



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InvisibleCaptain Jack
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #390448 - 09/10/01 06:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Whoa there, killer.

http://www.captainjackmusic.com


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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #390920 - 09/11/01 02:41 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

damn railgun, someone needs to calmdown. i say 4 insults and you come back with a whole fucking flame essay. someone needs to get their priorities straight and stop acting like a southern middle-schooler....


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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Sir Tokes-A-Lot]
    #391744 - 09/11/01 11:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It's better than coming back with a picture of a faggot flower wearing an ear ring with my name under it proving that the last line of what I said was true.



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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #391746 - 09/11/01 11:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I would like to point out that that gun control didn't save the thousands of people that died in todays terrorist attack just as it didn't save the 13 million holocaust victims. It just made them more vulnerable to the forces of evil.

Edited by Rail_Gun on 09/11/01 10:18 PM.



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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #391804 - 09/12/01 12:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

A HAHAHAHA!

youre joking, right?


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #392889 - 09/12/01 11:54 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

so, if everyone there had guns they could have fired at the planes and blown it up in mid air right? wow, that would be cool to watch. even if every american had there own personal gunship, it wouldnt have saved those people who died. and anyways, what are you talking about? gun control isnt in effect in america, if what your saying is true, that should never have happened, cause we still got our guns in our locked cabinets.

as for the holocaust, the jews had guns, they just gave them up cause they didnt want to die. people were fighting, and fighting damn hard. probably the strongest guerilla fighting going on in WW2 was in poland, and thats where most of the jews were killed. i still dont see what you mean by gun control killing the jews.



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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #392892 - 09/12/01 11:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

and, as everyone is really getting off track, i will answer your little questionaire you posted. yeah, they probably wouldn't do any of those things, but they still might. hell, i dont remember the story exactly, but a while back some drifter got his hands on an AK-47 and shot up a playground. most drifters wouldnt do it, but guns should be illegal for the ones who would.



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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: MrKurtz]
    #392895 - 09/12/01 11:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Mr Kurtz, if the pilots had been armed then they could have shot the terrorists. Hell if everyone on the plane had taken off their shoes and thrown them at the terrorists they might have knocked the box cutters out of their hands. You really have to be sarcastic about everything don't you? Even about this tragedy that could have been averted by locking the cabin doors...



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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: MrKurtz]
    #392901 - 09/13/01 12:06 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

and, as everyone is really getting off track, i will answer your little questionaire you posted. yeah, they probably wouldn't do any of those things, but they still might. hell, i dont remember the story exactly, but a while back some drifter got his hands on an AK-47 and shot up a playground. most drifters wouldnt do it, but guns should be illegal for the ones who would.




You shouldn't give up your liberty to try in vain to protect your liberty. A time will come when you will wish you were armed and you won't be. Besides just protecting our mainland United States from foreign invasion there are always domestic threats to our personal security and our people's security. The holocaust is the best example of how a nations attitudes can turn against innocent people that are unarmed and unable to defend themselves from genocide. We like to think that in America we're immune from such threats but we're not because this country is made of humans just as the previous so called civalized societies that turned on their own people in a genocidal fashon.



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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #392902 - 09/13/01 12:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

eh, i do understand its a tragedy, and yes, maybe they could have disarmed the terrorists, but what does having guns have to do with it? i personally think they should have trained guards on all flights who would be armed. but allowing anyone who wants to to carry guns on planes is ludicrous. they dont allow guns on planes so things like this wont happen. but, even if gun control was in effect, it wouldnt keep people who truly need guns from having them. this is a terrible tragedy, probably shouldnt have made that joke, but guns had NOTHING to do with it, and it kind of made me laugh that you are blaiming gun control on this. if they tightened security while in the air, spent a little more money hiring guards (or training and arming the pilots like you said), this whole tragedy may have been avoided. sounds like what your saying is if the people on the planes had more balls (i dont mean to offend anyone, just my interpretation of what rail gun was saying) then it wouldnt have happened. but hell, who would risk there life when they thought they would be much more likely to live if they didnt do anything?



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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #392910 - 09/13/01 12:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i do own a gun, but have never used it, and would gladly have it destroyed if the laws were changed. as for defending myself against genocide, well, i dont think having the opportunity to protect mysel is outweighed by the negative effects of anyone who wants a gun having one, no matter murderous. after all, in WW2, all japanese citizens in california were put in interment camps. they could have been killed, but who in there right mind would try to fight the people putting them there with violence? as sad as the thought is, with or without guns, if our military wanted to kill us, they would. we just hope since we make the military.. no one would want to.



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Re: Test your knowledge of gun control: [Re: MrKurtz]
    #394586 - 09/14/01 08:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

A single passenger with a pistol (pilot, sky marshall, whatever) could have easily killed 3-5 hijackers with razors.

This just illustrates that when you have people disarmed, a small group with nothing but knives can defeat them

I had a neighbor 2 doors down killed in a home invasion months back. He was killed, his wife was raped and beaten into a coma. They (3 gangsters) didn't need guns to terrorize him since he was unarmed. Being beaten to death is just as bad as being shot. A homeowner with a gun has a decided home-court advantage to any intruder. Anyone who kicks my door in walks into a hail of buckshot.

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