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Offlinemr_kite
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Guns
    #982986 - 10/22/02 03:25 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I'm new to this forum, and from looking around a bit I see there's a lot of pro-gun people. I realise this will get talked about quite a bit, but can you please explain to me:
1) Why would you want to own a gun?
2) Don't you think that the risks in having readily available firearms by far outweigh the benefits?
3) If you want a gun for the "hobby" of shooting, why can't you use non-leathal weapons, or even take up a bit of archery instead...?
4) If you want a gun for safety, don't you agree that if there were no guns then you would not need one for safety?

You cannot use arguments such as "well, drink driving causes hundreds of deaths so why don't we ban alcohol", because you know full well that that is complete bullshit and not proper logic.

I'm prepared to change my opinion if there's any good reasons. I'm not just having a bitching session. Thanks.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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OfflineParadox
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #983352 - 10/22/02 04:41 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

1) Guns are a constitutional right bestowed upon the citizens of America by our founding fathers to prevent the government from infringing upon our other rights. In addition, they give you an excellent method of self-defense.

2) I think it was luvdemshrooms who earlier posted a quote showing how negligable accidents caused by firearms actually are. The quote did something along the lines of comparing the ratio of deaths per surgeon to the ratio of deaths per gun. The surgeons were far more dangerous. The fact of the matter is that the media only shows you all the instances where guns cause harm to promote their agenda.

3) Some people just like excercising their constitutional rights. Moreover, bows and guns can both kill people.

4) It is impossible to remove all guns from society. If one were to pass as many gun control laws as he could think of, the end result would have all the guns in the hands of the criminals. Just take a look at what happened over in Britain after they installed the most gun control in any country to date. Their crime rate shoots up to the highest in any 1st world country as of yet.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #983412 - 10/22/02 04:57 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

****Why would you want to own a gun?***

Self defense and hunting....and just because i do. (that pesky 2nd amendment again)

****Don't you think that the risks in having readily available firearms by far outweigh the benefits?****

not at all..the risk is if the owner is too stupid to keep it away from kids and others that could get to it

****If you want a gun for the "hobby" of shooting, why can't you use non-leathal weapons, or even take up a bit of archery instead...?****

i can't believe you even asked this question...it kinda defeatsa the whole reason for having a gun, wouldn't you say? Also if shooting guns is my hobby, why would i want to shoot a bow and arrow?...hell while we're at it why not take up spitball shooting instead...do you get my point?

****If you want a gun for safety, don't you agree that if there were no guns then you would not need one for safety?****

then only those that want to kill would have guns. Maybe in a Utopian society were everyone followed the rule of law but this is no utopian paradise, if you haven't noticed

****You cannot use arguments such as "well, drink driving causes hundreds of deaths so why don't we ban alcohol", because you know full well that that is complete bullshit and not proper logic.****

actually the fact that you even used this type of pre-emptive defense makes me wonder if you even know what you're trying to say.

***I'm prepared to change my opinion if there's any good reasons. I'm not just having a bitching session. Thanks****

well it's nice to see that your open minded but alot of your premises are greatly flawed...knowing the truth helps this out.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #984004 - 10/22/02 07:18 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

I wasn't even going to respond to this post until I saw the last question.
In reply to:

1) Why would you want to own a gun?



Self defense, it's a constitutionally protected right, and because they are fun.

In reply to:

2) Don't you think that the risks in having readily available firearms by far outweigh the benefits?



No. Justice Department and FBI statistics both show that guns are used far more often to stop crimes, not commit them. Guns are used far more often by civilians to stop crime than the police use of weapons. Remember, police almost always show up AFTER the crime has been comitted and the criminals are gone.

In reply to:

3) If you want a gun for the "hobby" of shooting, why can't you use non-leathal weapons, or even take up a bit of archery instead...?



I enjoy all types of weapons.I prefer guns. The feel of a well made gun, the sound, the smell of gun oil and burning gun powder are all reasons I prefer guns. That, and try taking down a game animal at 300 yards with a bow.

In reply to:

4) If you want a gun for safety, don't you agree that if there were no guns then you would not need one for safety?




If guns were the only way people ever killed or robbed, maybe so. However what about knives? Clubs? Fists? Are you married or have a significant other? Maybe a sister? Could they protect themselves against a 250 lb person determined to do them harm? There is a reason they call guns the "great equalizer."

It seems from the tone of your questions that you don't like guns. Have you ever used one? If not I highly recommend you "give it a shot." Just be sure to go shooting with someone who you can trust to be safe and start with a small caliber gun. Maybe a 22, or a 38 special.

Don't blame the gun for the individuals misuse of the gun.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #984045 - 10/22/02 07:31 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

In reply to:

4) If you want a gun for safety, don't you agree that if there were no guns then you would not need one for safety?



No, cuz there are always gonna be guns. If the government can have them so should we.


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InvisibleVSOPXO
Cognacaholic

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 1,751
Re: Guns [Re: frogsheath]
    #984050 - 10/22/02 07:33 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

In reply to:

1) Why would you want to own a gun?


Because every single day I come in contact with someone who wants to harm me and/or take my life


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InvisibleVSOPXO
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Registered: 09/06/02
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #984115 - 10/22/02 07:57 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)



Edited by VSOPXO (10/22/02 07:58 PM)


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OfflineBoglyn
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #984244 - 10/22/02 08:42 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

1. Hunting, sport, defense, because socalist doesn't like it.

2. No. Only people who do not take responsiblity for there own actions think like that.

3. I did archery for about 6 years before I got into guns. However I was taught to shoot safely when i was young.

4. No because this simple reason. There will always be guns. You can't uninvent the light bulb just because you don't like that fact that coal power is used to power them. No goverment has ever been able to stop a black market. So the only people that would have them would be the goverment and criminal. I don't want to be a subject of a stupid goverment and a wont be a bitch to a criminal.



--------------------
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do.
---Galileo


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OfflineBoglyn
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #984246 - 10/22/02 08:43 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Just wanted to add if there are any shroomites in the dallas area who want to shoot let me know and I will be more than glad to take you out and teach you the correct way to use a gun and safely.


--------------------
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do.
---Galileo


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Guns [Re: Paradox]
    #985409 - 10/23/02 02:07 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Guns are a constitutional right bestowed upon the citizens of America by our founding fathers to prevent the government from infringing upon our other rights

Not according to the supreme court and every federal court in America. The NRA have pushed this second amendment myth but never dare test it in court because they know they would lose. The second amendment does NOT give individuals the right to own guns - that's proven beyond any doubt - indeed the supreme court say the argument is "exhausted" and don't even bother with it anymore. The second amendment applies to militias.

How are guns going to stop the government exactly? You going to go up against the cops and the american army with your saturday night special? Taking on those tanks and helicopter gunships?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineParadox
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Re: Guns [Re: Xlea321]
    #985594 - 10/23/02 04:05 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

you have to understand that our founding forefathers wrote the constitution a very long time ago. Those words used in the constitution of rights must be viewed in the context of the time which they were used. The entire basis of the United States is the rebellion against an oppressive government. They felt that the government was treating them unfairly, so they declared independance. Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we would be able to do the same, should our government get out of hand. By including the second ammendment, our forefathers gave us the capability to resist any army BACK IN THOSE TIMES. Tanks and stealth bombers weren't standard protocol back in those days, so by including that in your argument, you actually weaken the overall effect. Viewing the second ammendment in present day english is flawed, because our forefathers didn't intend for our constitution to change meaning were language to change. Anybody who chooses to read the second ammendment and apply common day english to it obviously doesn't have a clear understanding of the issue.


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Anonymous

Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #985651 - 10/23/02 04:51 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

People dont' like to be told what they can and can't have in a FREE SOCIETY.
If I shoot you, and get caught, I get into trouble.  Isn't that enough for you? :confused:

 


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Offlinemr_kite
The Watcher
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Re: Guns [Re: ]
    #985798 - 10/23/02 07:11 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

No, because I am dead.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #985816 - 10/23/02 07:32 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

OK, I appreciate your responses, but what I was really getting at was this:
If guns are readily available, and anyone of a legal age can learn to shoot well at shooting clubs, surely this increases the chances and frequency of incidents such as, and similar to, the current sniper situation, and school massacres like Dunblane etc.

I realise that this is just one side of the argument, that there are perfectly legitimate arguments like the ones you have given for ownership of guns, but will you admit to the argument above? Cause I've never heard anyone admit it yet. They always seem to avoid the question and talk about something else, such as drink-driving or knives.

And I didn't mean to insult any hardcore gun enthusiasts by suggesting they take up archery instead... that was just a joke...  :tongue: 


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #985893 - 10/23/02 09:13 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

****If guns are readily available, and anyone of a legal age can learn to shoot well at shooting clubs, surely this increases the chances and frequency of incidents such as, and similar to, the current sniper situation, and school massacres like Dunblane etc****

going outside increases the chance of getting hit by an meteorite.....so we should stay inside

****but will you admit to the argument above? ****

NO..your premise is completly false and relys on a billion what-if? scenerios

****Cause I've never heard anyone admit it yet****

and there's a reason wht they don't

****They always seem to avoid the question and talk about something else, such as drink-driving or knives.****

knives are a weapon you know and just because someone brings up an argument you can't defend against doesn't mean they are just BSing you

****And I didn't mean to insult any hardcore gun enthusiasts by suggesting they take up archery instead****

we have thick skin.........keeps the bullets from penetrating :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #985931 - 10/23/02 09:32 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

mr_kite writes:

If guns are readily available, and anyone of a legal age can learn to shoot well at shooting clubs, surely this increases the chances and frequency of incidents such as, and similar to, the current sniper situation, and school massacres like Dunblane etc.

If car seatbelts are readily available, and all drivers and passengers must use them, surely this increases the chances and frequency of incidents where the belts jam in an accident and/or drivers and passengers are rendered unconscious rather than thrown free through the windshield, thus trapping them inside a burning vehicle or one sinking in water.

In the case of seatbelts, the number of lives saved by their use substantially outweighs the number of lives lost by their use. The same is true of guns. The number of lives saved by civilians using guns far outweighs the number of lives lost by civilians using guns. There is a recent thread entitled "2nd amendment to justify shooting pigs?" -- last post made September 19 -- which has several sources linked that provide the statistics supporting this statement.

but will you admit to the argument above? Cause I've never heard anyone admit it yet.

I'll admit it, and I'll bet the other rational proponents of private gun ownership who contribute to this forum will as well. What the gun opponents won't admit is that the benefits of gun ownership outweigh the risks. One of the reasons violent crime levels are so low in countries such as Switzerland, Israel, Canada, and others is that criminals are well aware the odds of their prey being armed are quite high. Conversely, one of the reasons there has been a recent explosion of crime in countries such as England and Australia is that the criminals know their prey has been disarmed. Note that I am careful to use the phrase "ONE of the reasons", not "the ONLY reason".

I won't belabor the point that gun prohibition doesn't decrease the percentage of criminals owning guns, since so many others have done so already. But I will point out that when some people say "If we could guarantee that NOBODY, criminals included, could get their hands on a gun, then I would be in favor of banning them," they haven't thought the matter through. If a law-abiding person is faced with a criminal wielding a knife or a crossbow or a club or even his fists, that person is at a disadvantage unless armed with a gun. I still have a scar on my jaw from a beer bottle wound I received when two guys attacked me a few years back. I'll have that scar for the rest of my life. I guarantee I wouldn't have that scar if I had been carrying a gun.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisiblePjS
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Registered: 12/19/99
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Re: Guns [Re: Innvertigo]
    #985985 - 10/23/02 10:01 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

In reply to:

going outside increases the chance of getting hit by an meteorite




Your roof won't slow down a rock moving at sixty miles a second much. Might actually worsen your chance of surviving.


--------------------
**************

(Ped) Slavery leads to rebellion which leads to liquor store robberies, rap and hip-hop



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Guns [Re: Phred]
    #986178 - 10/23/02 11:51 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I guarantee I wouldn't have that scar if I had been carrying a gun.

Youd've spent 20 years in Attica instead. Sharing a cell with a 300lb beheometh with a hard-on.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Guns [Re: Xlea321]
    #986330 - 10/23/02 01:00 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Alex123 writes:

Youd've spent 20 years in Attica instead. Sharing a cell with a 300lb beheometh with a hard-on.

No, that's only the case in England, where the penalties for defending oneself are stiffer than the penalties for menacing someone.

In my situation, it wouldn't have been necessary to fire the gun. Pointing it and cocking it would have done the trick.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineBoglyn
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Re: Guns [Re: mr_kite]
    #986445 - 10/23/02 01:45 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

---If guns are readily available, and anyone of a legal age can learn to shoot well at shooting clubs, surely this increases the chances and frequency of incidents such as, and similar to, the current sniper situation, and school massacres like Dunblane etc.

Here in america we dont have shooting clubs in order to own a firearm unlike in socalist countries where people are happy to be servants to whomever is in power at the time.


--------------------
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do.
---Galileo


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