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Invisiblesilversoul7
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How real are trips?
    #1964307 - 09/30/03 12:04 AM (14 years, 15 hours ago)

I was chatting with someone online recently, and talking about the spiritual insights I had gained from tripping. This person kept saying something to the effect of, "It's just a hallucination. It's not real." This got me thinking: Can insights gained from tripping really be trusted? I know that when I say I experienced God while on a level 5 trip that it's merely a chemical reaction in the brain. But even if the experience itself wasn't real, I feel that the insight I gained into the nature of God was very real indeed. Any thoughts?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1964465 - 09/30/03 12:45 AM (14 years, 14 hours ago)

trying to take what you experience literally can be very taxing on your brain and you might shift from the true beauty of the experience.

i realize that my brain is being manipulated in a totally different manner when on hallucinogens, but if i reduce that to what happens in "real-life" isn't what i'm experiencing now because of a chemical reaction in my brain?

tripping gives our mind a chance to free itself from everything which our brains are hardwired to accomplish. we look at the world/universe/ourselves in a way that can't be understood or rationalized in how we think when our brain is "normal".

its how you perceive this change in consciousness. you said you felt "spirituality" and god to explain what occured to you.

during my last VERY hard trip i remember at one point begging for forgiveness from god for a moment during my intense comedown. after the trip i thought nothing of it because it was merely my brain unable to make sense of what was happening... i can't base my emotions during a trip or in real life as something spiritual because when it comes down to it, reality is just a perception of my mind as is "spirituality".


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1964473 - 09/30/03 12:47 AM (14 years, 14 hours ago)

If tripping isn't "real", is meditation? is prayer? is fasting? is any spiritual experience? There's no way to "prove" that you've experienced something divine no matter how you come about it. It's all up to you to interpret the value of your subjective experience. If you have an experience that you feel is holy, then it is.

All spiritual "techniques" are designed to change the way your body is working, and those subtle changes allow you to percieve in a slightly (or blatantly) different way. Breathing exercises change the proportions of oxygen/carbon dioxide in the blood stream... but does that explain away the insights people gain through years of yoga? Hardly.

Everything has whatever value you subscribe to it. So if its been positive for you give it the value it deserves.

~Jenn


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #1965065 - 09/30/03 04:44 AM (14 years, 10 hours ago)

Your experiences are your own and are very real, to say something that you have seen or felt is not real belies exactly what we define real is.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDankBluntZ
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1965102 - 09/30/03 05:21 AM (14 years, 9 hours ago)

Trips...could they be any more REAL? The acid is real , before you put it in your mouth. Once the acid dissolves, the feeling you get from it is real. Its not a fake feeling. Your experiences while on acid are very real. Your thoughts are real, they occurred in your brain , in real time. I recently tripped off some shit that was the most mind opening experience I think i've ever had ( right next to the first time i took acid). After this trip I felt i really learned something about my and everyone's existence. I never ever felt more spiritual in my life, and I have tripped many many times before (although not for a couple years until this recent trip).


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OfflineAldous
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965140 - 09/30/03 05:56 AM (14 years, 9 hours ago)

Hehe, just this morning I finished the exact book that answers your question. Try to pick it up, should be easy to find.
It's "The marriage of sense and soul" by Ken Wilber, in which he tries to integrate science and religion. He explains that you can submit spiritual experience to scientific scrutiny if only you follow the basics of scientific method:

- injunction ("in order to acquire or witness this or that, you have to do this or that", which can be: "in order to have a spiritual experience, you have to meditate, or trip, or whatever"),
- experience (apply the injunction and see what happens),
- falsifiability (take your experience back to a community of people who have applied the same injunctions and discuss your results with them, to see if yours fit theirs; if so, your experience was 'real', and you don't need much more evidence).

A good (and fairly easy) philosophical read.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Aldous]
    #1965145 - 09/30/03 05:59 AM (14 years, 9 hours ago)

Verification by other people does not make an experience real or not. You don't need any evidence towards something being real or not. If you experience it, then it is real.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965173 - 09/30/03 06:58 AM (14 years, 8 hours ago)

Every emotion you feel is just a chemical process. If tripping isn't "real" because it's drug induced,then nothing is.

*place ramble about reductionism here*


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by monoamine (09/30/03 06:59 AM)


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OfflineCherk
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965272 - 09/30/03 08:34 AM (14 years, 6 hours ago)

Notice how it's usually non-trippers that claim this.  :smirk:


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965301 - 09/30/03 09:28 AM (14 years, 5 hours ago)

I agree with what leoner said.

But I have a question for you, who in this planet would you trust with the knowledge of what God is or is not?
And why would you trust the version of some one else?
You experienced something it was real for you, as far as I am concern you have more expertise on god that a preacher on a church quoting the bible like a parrot.
You felt Him/her!
Trust your self man, in the end is the only one you can really trust.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965321 - 09/30/03 09:49 AM (14 years, 5 hours ago)

Mushrooms are real. Tripping is real. Your experiences are real. Everything is valid.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1965350 - 09/30/03 10:08 AM (14 years, 4 hours ago)

> It's just a hallucination. It's not real.

Every experience is real regardless of its origin. Even hallucinations are real while they are happening, at least to the person having the experience. Interpretations of what has happened are not real, however, nor can it ever be. Perhaps your friend is confusing the two.

> Can insights gained from tripping really be trusted?

Perhaps. For example, I once realized that I knew how to "move mountains" while floating on the ocean between here and there. Had I made some kind of mystical break through or was I simply caught up in the rolls of the trip?

I honestly believe that great insights into the nature of being can be gained while tripping. Too many people have posted about their life being forever changed after the viel of illusion was lifted from their eyes during a trip. Is this insight mystical, or simply the removal of some kind of mental block? Each of us must answer that question for ourselves.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1965470 - 09/30/03 10:56 AM (14 years, 4 hours ago)

Ah right! "Real"!  I almost forgot people used that word :crazy2:
Hehe.. Real... a comfort to many, just like heroin is :smirk:

Real, well, isn't!
An old lady walks her doggie in the park. Suddenly a 7ft guy charges her with a Glock and screams: "I'M GONNA KILL YOU F#CKING C#NT !!" and blasts the gun a few times while storming her. The lady decides a massive heart attack is in order and drops dead.

Now what's real?
The heart attack and the lady dying was real. The Glock wasn't, it was a blank-firing replica. The threat wasn't real because the guy only wanted to play a joke on her.

So the lady died because she believed something was real.
What's real?

The guy had come to this joke by reading on the Shroomery that eating seventy-five kilos of Daggura would be a fun trip so he did. And so he runs screaming in the night, having graduated from asshole to killer.

But.. There wasn't a lady! It was a lifelike hallucination brought on by munching down those seventy-five kilos of Daggura! IN FACT: he didn't even leave his room at all, because the entire park was in his head too. Nontheless, when he came down off of his trip fourty-three days later he was convinced he had killed someone.
What is real?

We know nothing, absolutely nothing for certain. We can't have even get certainty whether we ourselves are real or if we are, that the entire world around us is real.

We assume things are real. Nobody has certainty. So what is real?
The assault was real to the lady.
The guy thought he killed her but he himself in fact does not exist!
To top this off I like to think I myself exist and that there really are seperate people out there I'm posting to  :nut:

What is real and what isn't cannot be determined. You've got assumptions (the power of suggestion/hypnosis) and by majority rule that what most people believe is true "is" true. And if you say the opposite of what we all think is true we're gonna put you in a mental hospital to "learn to think the right way".

If you believe, truely believe with all your heart you united with God on mushrooms then that is just as real as when you spent fifty years of your life questing for that vision eating woodchips while butt-nakedly kneeling and freezing your ass off in a tibetan monestary while rats are chewing your testicles and you're clinging  on to your Vow of Silence.  :eek:

There is personal truth, there is collective truth, and all of it is as unproven as anything. I think a lot that goes on in a trip is utter sillyness. But I can only weigh this against my previous assumptions. Personally I am convinced to have experienced vast spiritual insights that I believe in for the full 99%




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Offlineseraphim
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Asante]
    #1965676 - 09/30/03 12:47 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

as jung says, don't place beliefs before experience.


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trying to lose the monkey mind a little bit


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: seraphim]
    #1966353 - 09/30/03 04:24 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

The goal is what matters, not the way to achieve the goal. Why do you believe your friend has the right to question what Path you take?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineAldous
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Seuss]
    #1966405 - 09/30/03 04:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Can insights gained from tripping really be trusted?

Perhaps. [...] I honestly believe that great insights into the nature of being can be gained while tripping.


Well, some obviously can't be trusted, and others obviously can. I remember a Horizon documentary on the BBC titled "Psychedelic science" about scientific research on psychedelics, and how Silicon Valley fed on LSD at one point, which generated massive progress in computer science. There was even a Nobel Prize winner who admitted that the insight that led him to be awarded the prize was gained under LSD. I don't remember the details (his name, what got him the prize) but I could look it up if there's some demand.

So yes, some of the tripping insights can be VERY real. But never trust them all... :confused:   


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Aldous]
    #1966538 - 09/30/03 05:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

> So yes, some of the tripping insights can be VERY real. But never trust them all...

Which is basically what the section you snipped out of my quote was saying... I hope.  :smile:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967842 - 09/30/03 11:59 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What is real?

If you realize that anything imaginable exists somewhere in some dimension, then you can come to grasp your experiences as real. In a sense, they are very real. After all, they came from you.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineMurex
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967883 - 10/01/03 12:09 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe this reality isn't real. But if you believe it is, then it is real.

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. That means that only you can determine what is and whhat isn't real.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Lobo [Re: LOBO]
    #2076210 - 11/06/03 07:58 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)


"Trust your self man, in the end (it) is the only one you can really trust."-

That statement is subject to the element of error, naturally;

Can I trust you?



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