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Invisiblesilversoul7
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How real are trips?
    #1964307 - 09/30/03 12:04 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I was chatting with someone online recently, and talking about the spiritual insights I had gained from tripping. This person kept saying something to the effect of, "It's just a hallucination. It's not real." This got me thinking: Can insights gained from tripping really be trusted? I know that when I say I experienced God while on a level 5 trip that it's merely a chemical reaction in the brain. But even if the experience itself wasn't real, I feel that the insight I gained into the nature of God was very real indeed. Any thoughts?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1964465 - 09/30/03 12:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

trying to take what you experience literally can be very taxing on your brain and you might shift from the true beauty of the experience.

i realize that my brain is being manipulated in a totally different manner when on hallucinogens, but if i reduce that to what happens in "real-life" isn't what i'm experiencing now because of a chemical reaction in my brain?

tripping gives our mind a chance to free itself from everything which our brains are hardwired to accomplish. we look at the world/universe/ourselves in a way that can't be understood or rationalized in how we think when our brain is "normal".

its how you perceive this change in consciousness. you said you felt "spirituality" and god to explain what occured to you.

during my last VERY hard trip i remember at one point begging for forgiveness from god for a moment during my intense comedown. after the trip i thought nothing of it because it was merely my brain unable to make sense of what was happening... i can't base my emotions during a trip or in real life as something spiritual because when it comes down to it, reality is just a perception of my mind as is "spirituality".


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1964473 - 09/30/03 12:47 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If tripping isn't "real", is meditation? is prayer? is fasting? is any spiritual experience? There's no way to "prove" that you've experienced something divine no matter how you come about it. It's all up to you to interpret the value of your subjective experience. If you have an experience that you feel is holy, then it is.

All spiritual "techniques" are designed to change the way your body is working, and those subtle changes allow you to percieve in a slightly (or blatantly) different way. Breathing exercises change the proportions of oxygen/carbon dioxide in the blood stream... but does that explain away the insights people gain through years of yoga? Hardly.

Everything has whatever value you subscribe to it. So if its been positive for you give it the value it deserves.

~Jenn


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #1965065 - 09/30/03 04:44 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Your experiences are your own and are very real, to say something that you have seen or felt is not real belies exactly what we define real is.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDankBluntZ
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1965102 - 09/30/03 05:21 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Trips...could they be any more REAL? The acid is real , before you put it in your mouth. Once the acid dissolves, the feeling you get from it is real. Its not a fake feeling. Your experiences while on acid are very real. Your thoughts are real, they occurred in your brain , in real time. I recently tripped off some shit that was the most mind opening experience I think i've ever had ( right next to the first time i took acid). After this trip I felt i really learned something about my and everyone's existence. I never ever felt more spiritual in my life, and I have tripped many many times before (although not for a couple years until this recent trip).


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OfflineAldous
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965140 - 09/30/03 05:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hehe, just this morning I finished the exact book that answers your question. Try to pick it up, should be easy to find.
It's "The marriage of sense and soul" by Ken Wilber, in which he tries to integrate science and religion. He explains that you can submit spiritual experience to scientific scrutiny if only you follow the basics of scientific method:

- injunction ("in order to acquire or witness this or that, you have to do this or that", which can be: "in order to have a spiritual experience, you have to meditate, or trip, or whatever"),
- experience (apply the injunction and see what happens),
- falsifiability (take your experience back to a community of people who have applied the same injunctions and discuss your results with them, to see if yours fit theirs; if so, your experience was 'real', and you don't need much more evidence).

A good (and fairly easy) philosophical read.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Aldous]
    #1965145 - 09/30/03 05:59 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Verification by other people does not make an experience real or not. You don't need any evidence towards something being real or not. If you experience it, then it is real.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965173 - 09/30/03 06:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Every emotion you feel is just a chemical process. If tripping isn't "real" because it's drug induced,then nothing is.

*place ramble about reductionism here*


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by monoamine (09/30/03 06:59 AM)


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OfflineCherk
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965272 - 09/30/03 08:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Notice how it's usually non-trippers that claim this.  :smirk:


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965301 - 09/30/03 09:28 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with what leoner said.

But I have a question for you, who in this planet would you trust with the knowledge of what God is or is not?
And why would you trust the version of some one else?
You experienced something it was real for you, as far as I am concern you have more expertise on god that a preacher on a church quoting the bible like a parrot.
You felt Him/her!
Trust your self man, in the end is the only one you can really trust.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1965321 - 09/30/03 09:49 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Mushrooms are real. Tripping is real. Your experiences are real. Everything is valid.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1965350 - 09/30/03 10:08 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

> It's just a hallucination. It's not real.

Every experience is real regardless of its origin. Even hallucinations are real while they are happening, at least to the person having the experience. Interpretations of what has happened are not real, however, nor can it ever be. Perhaps your friend is confusing the two.

> Can insights gained from tripping really be trusted?

Perhaps. For example, I once realized that I knew how to "move mountains" while floating on the ocean between here and there. Had I made some kind of mystical break through or was I simply caught up in the rolls of the trip?

I honestly believe that great insights into the nature of being can be gained while tripping. Too many people have posted about their life being forever changed after the viel of illusion was lifted from their eyes during a trip. Is this insight mystical, or simply the removal of some kind of mental block? Each of us must answer that question for ourselves.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1965470 - 09/30/03 10:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Ah right! "Real"!  I almost forgot people used that word :crazy2:
Hehe.. Real... a comfort to many, just like heroin is :smirk:

Real, well, isn't!
An old lady walks her doggie in the park. Suddenly a 7ft guy charges her with a Glock and screams: "I'M GONNA KILL YOU F#CKING C#NT !!" and blasts the gun a few times while storming her. The lady decides a massive heart attack is in order and drops dead.

Now what's real?
The heart attack and the lady dying was real. The Glock wasn't, it was a blank-firing replica. The threat wasn't real because the guy only wanted to play a joke on her.

So the lady died because she believed something was real.
What's real?

The guy had come to this joke by reading on the Shroomery that eating seventy-five kilos of Daggura would be a fun trip so he did. And so he runs screaming in the night, having graduated from asshole to killer.

But.. There wasn't a lady! It was a lifelike hallucination brought on by munching down those seventy-five kilos of Daggura! IN FACT: he didn't even leave his room at all, because the entire park was in his head too. Nontheless, when he came down off of his trip fourty-three days later he was convinced he had killed someone.
What is real?

We know nothing, absolutely nothing for certain. We can't have even get certainty whether we ourselves are real or if we are, that the entire world around us is real.

We assume things are real. Nobody has certainty. So what is real?
The assault was real to the lady.
The guy thought he killed her but he himself in fact does not exist!
To top this off I like to think I myself exist and that there really are seperate people out there I'm posting to  :nut:

What is real and what isn't cannot be determined. You've got assumptions (the power of suggestion/hypnosis) and by majority rule that what most people believe is true "is" true. And if you say the opposite of what we all think is true we're gonna put you in a mental hospital to "learn to think the right way".

If you believe, truely believe with all your heart you united with God on mushrooms then that is just as real as when you spent fifty years of your life questing for that vision eating woodchips while butt-nakedly kneeling and freezing your ass off in a tibetan monestary while rats are chewing your testicles and you're clinging  on to your Vow of Silence.  :eek:

There is personal truth, there is collective truth, and all of it is as unproven as anything. I think a lot that goes on in a trip is utter sillyness. But I can only weigh this against my previous assumptions. Personally I am convinced to have experienced vast spiritual insights that I believe in for the full 99%




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Offlineseraphim
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Asante]
    #1965676 - 09/30/03 12:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

as jung says, don't place beliefs before experience.


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trying to lose the monkey mind a little bit


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: seraphim]
    #1966353 - 09/30/03 04:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The goal is what matters, not the way to achieve the goal. Why do you believe your friend has the right to question what Path you take?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineAldous
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Seuss]
    #1966405 - 09/30/03 04:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Can insights gained from tripping really be trusted?

Perhaps. [...] I honestly believe that great insights into the nature of being can be gained while tripping.


Well, some obviously can't be trusted, and others obviously can. I remember a Horizon documentary on the BBC titled "Psychedelic science" about scientific research on psychedelics, and how Silicon Valley fed on LSD at one point, which generated massive progress in computer science. There was even a Nobel Prize winner who admitted that the insight that led him to be awarded the prize was gained under LSD. I don't remember the details (his name, what got him the prize) but I could look it up if there's some demand.

So yes, some of the tripping insights can be VERY real. But never trust them all... :confused:   


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Aldous]
    #1966538 - 09/30/03 05:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

> So yes, some of the tripping insights can be VERY real. But never trust them all...

Which is basically what the section you snipped out of my quote was saying... I hope.  :smile:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967842 - 09/30/03 11:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

What is real?

If you realize that anything imaginable exists somewhere in some dimension, then you can come to grasp your experiences as real. In a sense, they are very real. After all, they came from you.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineMurex
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1967883 - 10/01/03 12:09 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe this reality isn't real. But if you believe it is, then it is real.

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. That means that only you can determine what is and whhat isn't real.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlinecastaway
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Re: Lobo [Re: LOBO]
    #2076210 - 11/06/03 07:58 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)


"Trust your self man, in the end (it) is the only one you can really trust."-

That statement is subject to the element of error, naturally;

Can I trust you?



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lobo [Re: castaway]
    #2076370 - 11/06/03 10:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

castaway said:

"Trust your self man, in the end (it) is the only one you can really trust."-

That statement is subject to the element of error, naturally;

Can I trust you?





I can trust myself. No element of error there. I know who I am and what composes me. I have complete trust in who I am.

You, however, can't trust me, unless you want to. But I can trust myself. I do. No error.

Digging up the old old posts, I see...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Lobo [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2077119 - 11/06/03 03:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Studies have shown that if one is placed under deep-hypnosis, and is told, by the hypnotist, that they are being touched with a white-hot poker, but in reality, actually touched the person being hypnotized with a pencil, or a finger, the person will actually develop a blister in that very same spot. Wrap your head around that :grin:
It's all in the power if your own mind.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineBhairabas
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Re: Lobo [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2077467 - 11/06/03 05:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

There is no experience more real then experience itself.. if you've experienced it it's as real as it gets..


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2077669 - 11/06/03 06:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

since we have no way of distinguishing what is real anyway, and as far as anyone knows this could all be imagined by the perceiver, of course you can gain spiritual insight from a trip....because its just another chemically induced state, likke everything else.

We experience the world like we do because of the fact that we inhale and process oxygen, and consume foodsources that add to our energy supplies. If you change our intake, does that make it any less real?

Reductionist idea, like monoamine...but hey, works for me :P

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineToad_Stool
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2077796 - 11/06/03 07:06 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

wheres the info for this skoripivo, I beleive you it just sounds interesting to see this. Also That nobel prize winner admitted to being under the influence of LSD for his idea. ANyone know who this is? What he/she did?


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There's nothing more I'd rather do, than the drug I call you


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Toad_Stool]
    #2077886 - 11/06/03 07:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yes I am very interested in a nobel prize winner figuring shit out on LSD


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2079043 - 11/07/03 01:04 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

i was going to make i new post for this, but i figured why bother.

it seems like alot of poeple have rather intense hallucinations on rather low doses of mushrooms (and perhaps ayahuasca? more on that when i get more experiance).

5 grams isn't that much to poeple who trip regularly, and i personally have never experianced, nor has anyone in my prescence experianced anything like most of the mushrooms trips in the trip reports while on mushrooms (the exception would be my very first mushroom trip, when i EXPECTED it to be like that).

what i'm getting at here is i'm starting to suspect that poeple hallucinate so much because they expect to hallucinate so much, and i also suspect that a large part of the trip isn't valid.

whats leading me to believe this is because any novice magican/psychic can get real world demonstrateable effects in a very short period of time.
i haven't seen or heard of anyone other than shamans, who are magicians in thier own right, who use the pyschedelic teachers to actually increase thier real life power and get real life effects.

if it makes you so knowledgable about the non-physical workings of reality, why don't more poeple report increased abilities?

who knows, just a suspicion. more evidence after i have several more ayahuasca trips.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2079060 - 11/07/03 01:11 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

after having this conversation with my usual tripping buddies:

SuperCoolGuyDan: alot of hallucinations are just connecting the little fragment things you have probably seen into different opatterns then letting your mind wander
True Kimbo: yeah, but wandering minds get lost
SuperCoolGuyDan: exactly and thats when you have those insane hallucinations everyone talks about i really have never had them either very few hallucinations of actual things
True Kimbo: exactly
True Kimbo: why aren't we getting insane hallucinations
True Kimbo: same substances?
SuperCoolGuyDan: alot of people also exagertate what they think
SuperCoolGuyDan: like a wierd picture they get in there head all of a sudden is real
SuperCoolGuyDan: alot of poepl also just fuckin lie (to themselves)

NeedelR: a suspicion, like there's not as much there as promised?
True Kimbo: like most of the poeple tripping who have very intense experiances are pre-programming themselves to hallucinate violently based on reading the experiances of the early pyschedelic pioneers who took staggering doses.
NeedelR: hm. interesting. yeah, it's usually only after gross excesses that anything really super trancescendant hits.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2079065 - 11/07/03 01:13 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Please note that I'm not talking about hallucinations. I'm talking about insights.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2079073 - 11/07/03 01:16 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

one last post in my series of thought trains. i've only twice now seen the verge of becoming fully immersed in pyschedelic space, where there was completely abscence of reality. could it be that many of these poeple's experiances take place after that threshhold and they've just learned to put themselves over that line with smaller and smaller doses?

input needed.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2079084 - 11/07/03 01:21 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

insights. insight into personal and group psychology i totally agree pyschedelics can help you on a certain level.

all these insights in the truer nature of reality, i don't know, refer to my post earlier.

if these insights are valid why do trippers not report the same level of increased awareness/self control and understanding/paranormal ability as sober poeple.


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OfflineQuintessence
I am Hydrogen

Registered: 11/25/02
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Re: How real are trips? *DELETED* [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2079105 - 11/07/03 01:31 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by NuggetsTheShaker


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Quintessence]
    #2079994 - 11/07/03 07:02 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NuggetsTheShaker said:
Fireworks were being lit off randomly by various people. 




It was me. I was saying "Yes, I do exist".
:wink:
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineQuintessence
I am Hydrogen

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Re: How real are trips? *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2080206 - 11/07/03 09:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by NuggetsTheShaker


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: Quintessence]
    #2080426 - 11/07/03 11:12 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NuggetsTheShaker said:
Coincidence -_-
or is it?  :crazy: 




It has been far too fucking long since I have the oppurtunity to play with fireworks, unfortuantely. :frown:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinejiva
dream serpent

Registered: 11/06/03
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2080821 - 11/07/03 01:45 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If you experience it, it is real to you.

Just because there are superficial reactions happening on a gross physical scale doesn't mean more subtle actions and reactions arn't taking place.


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: jiva]
    #2080934 - 11/07/03 02:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I know for sure people exxagerate or lie about things they see on mushrooms. They get it in their head that maybe they were almost going to see something then they think that maybe they did and they think that they are supposed to talk about mushroom trips in a certain way and the next thing you know they are saying "I saw pigs flying in the sky!!"


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2081662 - 11/07/03 06:56 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose you could say these experience are not real because its just a drug or what not, but if some divine force wanted us, in this reality, to experience such things it would use our reality to do that. The divine would understand the way we work, understand how to manipulate our brains to give us that experience and give us the opportunity to have these experiences. Magic mushrooms growing naturally, the potential to synthesize LSD etc



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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: How real are trips? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2082129 - 11/07/03 09:35 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Mixomatosis,

The nobel prize winner was Kary Mullis. He got it for his work on the polymerase chain reaction. I think this is used to clone DNA (ie. take small amounts of some DNA, and then clone it to get a larger amount of the same DNA).

http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/dancing_naked.html


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Offlinesoylent_green
The greatEnitsuj
Female

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 765
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Re: How real are trips? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2082706 - 11/08/03 01:18 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

mabey the only thing that matters is weather you have learned something from your trip. who cares wheather it was real or not, learning a lession in life is what counts


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: How real are trips? [Re: soylent_green]
    #2082943 - 11/08/03 03:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Anything believed is true to the believer, even a dellusion. Trouble comes when you start to wake up from the dream, but are not yet fully awake, and have not yet let go of the dream. Sadly most of us are half asleep/half awake. Believe nothing, have ideas about everthing, but cling to No-thing, let go of wanting, and not wanting, and just be.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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