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Invisiblechunder
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Evidence of Chakras?
    #1944500 - 09/23/03 03:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Since chakras are supposedely made up of real electric energy, then shouldn't there be some kind of evidence of scientists detecting the different chakras? Is there such evidence?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: chunder]
    #1944507 - 09/23/03 03:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think there is any such evidence. Although I'm waiting to be corrected...


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: chunder]
    #1944518 - 09/23/03 03:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know about chakras, but I've heard that auras have been proven to exist, although their exact nature is open to speculation.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1944524 - 09/23/03 03:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

ive been pondering this chakra business recenltly. How do you know when you have one "opened" or whatever the term is?


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Anonymous

http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: silversoul7]
    #1944553 - 09/23/03 03:40 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html

The physical plane "counterparts" of the chakras are the major glands in the body..testicles up thru to the pineal gland in the brain. Understanding that all is really flowing energy is the key. Hardcore physiology/biology doesnt recognise the world of the "occult"(or the study of hidden energies).http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html ( a basic site)


Edited by Anonymous (09/23/03 03:48 PM)


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1944560 - 09/23/03 03:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.kirlian.org/kirlian2.htm#Consciousness

and

http://skepdic.com/kirlian.html

These sites offer some insight into the nature of auras, which apparently have been captured on film since the 30's. Obviously, there is a real electrical field that surrounds us. Its affected by moisture and our atmosphere and can be seen in the photographs on those sites.

I find the picture of the couple thinking loving thoughts about each other interesting.

I don't doubt the existence of such a field, I believe that is fact, but I still haven't been able to find evidence of chakras found through some kind of instrument. Seems like there should be some kind of test out there that would confirm or deny the existence of such electric focal points.

Or perhaps chakras are composed of a substance which we can't observe and measure, but everything I've read about them suggests they are part of our electrical field.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1944583 - 09/23/03 03:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

not chakras but here' some qi related stuff (take it with
a pinch of salt - and conciousness altering spices if available :grin:)
A Study on Physiological Changes in Shaolin Internal Qigong
Qiang LI,Yoshimasa MATSUURA, Shinji TSUBOUCHI, Qiming Li and Norinaga SHIMIZU
 
 
In this study, the biological reactions of the respiro-circulatory system were analyzed in order to clarify the mechanisms of physiological changes during exercises of Shaolin Internal Qigong. The subject was a 55-year old man, who has practiced Shaolin Internal Qigong for over 40 years. During the exercises, his heart rate ranged from 66 to 77% of the maximum heart rate, the oxygen uptake ranged from 31 to 45% of the maximum oxygen uptake, and the ratings of perceived exertion (R.P.E.) ranged from 4 to 6. Increase of lactate acid in the blood, pulmonary ventilation and respiratory efficiency were recognized to compare with their rest values. Blood pressure and breathing frequency did not change. Thus, these exercises improved respiratory efficiency by the maximum isometric muscle contraction while they maintained natural breathing. In addition, Shaolin Internal Qigong was considered to influence the reflex system because it inhibited both blood pressure increase and respiratory rate change which are usually observed during the maximum isometric muscle contraction.
Keywords: Shaolin Internal Qigong, respiratory efficiency, blood pressure, heart rate,
oxygen uptake, isometric muscle contraction
Immune Responses during Remote Qi Emission
Yuzo HIGUCHI, Kimiko KAWANO, Yasunori KOTANI, Yoshitsugu HAYASHI,
Hironobu HIGUCHI, Tadashi SATO and Shinichiro MOMOSE
Three qigong masters having high-level qigong techniques participated in a remote qi emission experiment. The receivers assigned to the respective qigong masters were at a distance of approximately 2 to 4 km away. levels of Natual Killer (NK) cell activity, Interleukin (IL)-2, and CD4/CD8 in venous blood were simultaneously measured for any changes. Forty minutes after remote qi emission was conducted, the following changes were detected: the NK cell activity increased to a significant level, IL-2 showed a tendency to increase, and CD4/CD8 decreased. It was acknowledged that remote qi emission effected such changes, which were similar to the results obtained from an experiment on regular qigong therapy, suggesting that remote qi emission improves the immune function of the qi receivers.

Keywords: remote qi emission, NK cell activity, IL-2, CD4/CD8
from:
http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/islis/en/journalE.htm

http://www.lifescientists.de/index.htm
 


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: lucid]
    #1944601 - 09/23/03 03:54 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

hmmm... I posted the wrong article this was what I wanted to post...
[Mini Symposium A Remote Action Experiment]
An Experiment on Remote Action against Man in Sensory-Shielding Condition (Part III)
Mikio YAMAMOTO, Hideyuki KOKUBO, Tomoko KOKADO, Suzue HARAGUCHI, Tong ZHANG
Masataka TANAKA, Dmitri V. PARKHOMTCHOUK, Takao SOMA and Kimiko KAWANO


A phenomenon called "toh-ate" is performed by a mineral arts expert or a qigong master (sender) on an opponent (receiver) at a distance of several meters. When the sender applies toh-ate, the receiver steps back rapidly without being touched. The results of many experiments performed by our group have shown that this phenomenon involves something beyond mere suggestion. To avoid the element of suggestion, all our experiments were conducted under randomized, double-blind conditions with the sender and receiver located in separate rooms.
In our past experiments involving practitioners who exercise toh-ate daily, the frequency histgram of the time differences between sending (qi-emission) and receiving (response) has a large peak around zero. This phenomenon is statistically significant. We have published papers on them in this journal since 1996, including some on brain waves and electrodermal activity as well as other physiological data.
We report here that in a similar toh-ate experiment, but with a different pair of experts who have been practicing a discipline for many years, the attacker did not create any atmosphere of menace before an attack, and that the defender felt presentiment of the attack and made a defense. Three large peaks occurred around-41 (p=3.7%)sec, 0 sec(13.4), +36sec(1.3) in the frequency histogram. The poisson upper-sided risk values are shown between the parentheses. The two peaks have a 5% significance, which was difficult to expect before conducting this experiment. This result implies some unknown information transmission.
The results concerning the brain waves of the practitioners as well as their heart beat, hand temperature and skin slectric conduction appear in the following 5 papers of this volume.
Keywords: ki, qi, qigong, sense shielding, suggestion, presentiment, extrasensory, ESP, DMILS, remote action, martial art, toh-ate, taiki, Shintaido

EEG alpha Waves of a Receiver in a Remote Action Experiment-Part II
Kimiko KAWANO, Mikio YAMAMOTO, Hideyuki KOKUBO, Masataka TANAKA,
Tong ZHANG, Tomoko KOKADO and Takao SOMA


A second experimental study during To-ate was carried out following the previous analysis reported in the Journal of ISLIS (Vol.18(2), 2000). Two practitioners were placed in separate rooms and at a time set randomly within 80 seconds (1 trial), one practitioner (sender) emitted qi. The other one (receiver) made a sign with a switch when he sensed the qi. The sender's and receiver's markers were recorded together with their physiological data. In all, 108 trials were done for two days and the receiver's EEGs were analyzed in each 5.12 seconds of four periods; those were, before sending qi, while sending, after sending, and while sensing qi was being received (that is, just before the receiver's marker). At the time of actually receiving qi (while sending), the alpha ratio of the frontal midline (Fz) to the occipital region (O2) was significantly larger than that while sensing (p<0.05). The alpha phase difference between O2 and Fz was distinctly short while sending (vs. while sensing; p<0.0001).

Keywords: EEG, frontal alpha-wave, alpha-phase synchronization, extrasensory perception

Analysis of the Reciever's EEG in Remote Perception Task
Tong ZHANG, Mikio YAMAMOTO, Hideyuki KOKUBO, Kimiko KAWANO,
Masataka TANAKA and Tomoko KOKADO
In the present experiment, two experienced practitioners of a Japanese martial art were subjects. One acted as a sender while the other acted as a receiver. They were put in separate rooms with communication deprivation to perform a task of "remote action and perception". One run was made up of three successive 80-second trials during which only one 'sending' was performed in double-blinded and randomized conditions. Both physiological changes of the sender and the receiver were measured during the experiment. In this paper, changes of the mean amplitudes of alpha wave and theta wave of the receiver during a period of 10 seconds around the sending time were analyzed at an interval of 1 second. Compared with values of the resting state, statistically significant decreases of theta activity were found in C4 and T6 areas, while statistically significant increases of the alpha wave were found in Fp1, Fp2 and T5 areas. However when compared to values during the period of non-sending, statistically significant changes of alpha wave were found in T5, T6, O1and O2 areas.

Keywords: EEG, alpha activity, theta activity, frontal lobes, mental concentration, martial arts

ECG Analysis in a Remote Action Experiment
Masataka TANAKA, Mikio YAMAMOTO, Hideyuki KOKUBO, Tomoko KOKADO, Tong ZHANG
Dmitri V. PARKHOMTCHOUK, Kimiko KAWANO and Takao SOMA


ECGs of a qi-receiver during To-ate (remote action; an ancient Japanese martial art) were analyzed. Two practitioners were placed in separate rooms which had an electromagnetic shield room for the receiver to cut normal information transfer. At a time set randomly within 80 seconds (1 trial), one practitioner (sender) emitted qi. The other (receiver) attempted to perceive the qi. Their sending time, receiving time and physiology data were recorded. The receiver's ECG R-R intervals were measured. Heart beat fluctuations were analyzed before and after the sending and receiving times. In trials within a 5-second time difference between the sending and receiving times, coefficients of variation of R-R intervals between a 15-second period before and a 15-second period after the sending and receiving times each showed statistical significant.

Keywords: ECG, R-R interval, coefficient of variation, extrasensory perception



Skin Temperature Changes of Receiver's Laogong on the Left Hand
in Remote Action Experiment
Weizhong CHEN, Hideyuki KOKUBO, Tomoko KOKADO, Tong ZHANG
Suzue HARAGUCHI, Kimiko KAWANO and Mikio YAMAMOTO
Trained as a pair for 40 years, two persons were studied in a remote action experiment. What they have trained is a martial art that people train to foresee an attack from partner. The two were separated in two rooms during the experiment, and normal information transmission routes (the senses of sight, hearing etc.) were cut off. The sender emitted "qi of attack" only once during an 80-second trial on double blinded and randomized conditions. A thermistor was used to measure the hand surface temperature at the receiver's left laogong (middle of palm of hand). The difference between the average temperature change before and after transmitting was analyzed. At one second before the transmitting time, the difference for 2 seconds was statistically significant and 1% or less.

Keywords: average skin temperature change, remote action, laogong point, thermistor, hand surface

Analysis of Electrodermal Activity (EDA) in Remote Perception Task
Using Electromagnetic Shield Cage - Part II
Hideyuki KOKUBO, Mikio YAMAMOTO, Kumiko YAMADA, Kimiko KAWANO,
Takao SOMA, Masataka TANAKA, Tong ZHANG and Nobuo FUKUDA
In the present experiment, two professional practitioners of Japanese martial arts were put in separate rooms with communicational deprivation, while the authors measured physiological changes of one of the two, acting as a Receiver, when the other, acting as a Sender, attempted to give "remote action" to the Receiver at a distance. The Receiver was seated in an electromagnetic shielding cage and the Sender performed only one "sending" motion per 80-second trial on double blinded and randomized conditions. The Receiver's skin conductances were sampled at a rate of 200Hz using an exosomatic method (DC 0.5V constant). Results showed the ratio of the Receiver's skin conductance changed at the sending time. Personalities of the subjects were tested by Yatabe-Guilford Personality Inventory (Y-G test) and Tokyo University Egogram (TEG). Both subjects' personalities were evaluated as D-group (Stable-Active Type) on the Y-G test. The Receiver's personality was evaluated as FC dominant type and the Sender's personality as trapezoid type by TEG.
Keywords: electrodermal activity (EDA), skin conductance change, direct mental interaction with living system (DMILS), anomalous cognition, Yatabe-Guilford Personality Inventory (Y-G test), Tokyo University Egogram (TEG), martial arts, Shintaido


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: lucid]
    #1944647 - 09/23/03 04:03 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, these qi recieving/reception experiments are pretty amazing! If they used proper scientific protocol for their experiments, it seems they would be eligible for Randi's Challenge, no?


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Offlinepurenergy
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1944813 - 09/23/03 04:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i think auras r just every living organisms natural electro-magnetic field...


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one has lived from an endless past and will live into an endless future. at this very moment one partakes of Eternal Life-blissful, luminous, pure.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: ]
    #1944864 - 09/23/03 05:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"The physical plane "counterparts" of the chakras are the major glands in the body..testicles up thru to the pineal gland in the brain. Understanding that all is really flowing energy is the key. Hardcore physiology/biology doesnt recognise the world of the "occult"(or the study of hidden energies).http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html ( a basic site) "

The site explains what chakras are, but offers no evidence for their existance. So why am I supposed to believe in them?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: chunder]
    #1944955 - 09/23/03 05:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The chakras are multidimensional and exist on several levels. Many people like to draw correlations with nerve plexus and brain center locations in the physical body. From a Hindu Yoga perspective, they are 'portals' in the astral body. Although they are depicted as circles facing outward, they are really considered to be disk-like areas, perpendicular to the astral spine (Staff of Brahman) in which the 3 major astral channels pass through the chakras like a shaft through the center of wheels.

The Tibetan Buddhist chakra system is seen as operating on these two levels, plus a level in which the gtu-mo, or Inner Fire is activated and ascends to the Crown Center, and a final level in which the the Enlightenment experience (symbolized by OM) flows back in a descending movement to the Heart Center (HUM). The results of this practice is not Power (Shakti) in any physical-electromagnetic, or astral sense, but in the manifestation of the Wisdom-Energies in which the chakras now become vehicles for different aspects (energies) of Enlightened mind.

Sorry, your question was 'loaded.' One would have to be looking at the psychophysical level rather than the psychospiritual levels to quantify the grosser forms of energy.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1945037 - 09/23/03 05:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

So there isn't even the smallest bit of evidence of chakras found through scientific instruments?

I by no means require verification through instruments to be convinced that something is real, but I also think that such verification is a powerful tool in understanding our reality.

Just seems that after thousands of years of development, that someone who was expert on such energies would have collaborated with scientists to produce an instrument capable of verifying at least SOME small portion of their existence.


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Anonymous

Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: Phluck]
    #1945250 - 09/23/03 06:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)



The site explains what chakras are, but offers no evidence for their existance. So why am I supposed to believe in them?




You dont need evidence of what keeps your heart pumping, do you? We just accept it , if weve ever thought about that at all. No-one in the scientific community can provide proof of the chakras, its beyond their means. Understanding of the chakras comes from an internal awareness of your "fabic/structure" as a spiritual being with a soul. Scientists cant prove the existence of the soul either, just because they cant doesnt mean you should not be aware of your own soul.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: ]
    #1945610 - 09/23/03 08:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"You dont need evidence of what keeps your heart pumping, do you? We just accept it , if weve ever thought about that at all."

What is this supposed to mean, exactly? We know our hearts pump. We don't know if "chakras" exist. We've never thought about how our hearts run? We understand to a certain degree how our muscles receive signals from our brain, and the reason we don't fully understand is not for lack of trying. We may well figure out much more about it, but we're still working on it.

For all we know it's a fairy tale. Some people claim they can "feel" where their chakras are. The only people I've talked to who make this claim have read extensively about them.

"Understanding of the chakras comes from an internal awareness of your "fabic/structure" as a spiritual being with a soul. Scientists cant prove the existence of the soul either, just because they cant doesnt mean you should not be aware of your own soul."

There isn't even really a concrete definition of what a soul is. There isn't any evidence that we exist as something more than our bodies. It is a distinct possibility, but accepting it as truth doesn't make any sense.

I think it's human nature to feel as though they are something far more magical and exciting than a machine composed of space dust, but it seems that it is as equally possible as anything that this is just wishful thinking.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: Phluck]
    #1945801 - 09/23/03 09:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I sympathise with everything you have said Phluck, its hard to get across in a few paragraphs every detail im aware of from having studied "arcane texts" for the past 10 years( i started out with an interest in jungian psychology& built on that over the years. You are right to want to seek a scientific answer to this. Its the crutch that most western people rely on, and sometimes it does help. When it comes to "the occult" however it doesnt all the time. I am of the opinion that there exists a "life-force" that animates not only the pulse of the heart , but the cells that constitute our entire body.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: Phluck]
    #1945846 - 09/23/03 09:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The chakra systems, particularly in Vajrayana Buddhism comprise a very old system of psychology that delineates various kinds of human motivation. I have been living by this symbolic system for 30 years now. It not only is a map for one's psycho-physical-spiritual development across the lifespan, but serves as a very import map for the 'compressed file' of one's lifetime , namely a 'trip.' If you could access Microfilms International, you could find my Doctoral dissertation which illustrated how the psychologies of Freud, Adler, Jung, Frankl, Maslow, and Rogers, plus a final synthesis, parallels the 5 chakras and the ascending movement of the "Path Towards Unification" and the descending movement of the "Path Towards Realization" outlined by Lama Govinda in 'Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism.' The title of the dissertation was 'A Phenomenological Adaptation of the Tibetan Buddhist Doctrine of Psychic Centers to a Metatheoretical Hierarchy of Human Motivation.' (They made me make a title like this).

The point here is that the chakras are as real as the motivations for self-preservation and preservation of the species (Anal-Genital Root Center); the Will to Power (Manipura Center: Indo-Aryan root for Manipu-lation; Solar Plexus); the Will to Individuation (Heart Center [Mandala]); the Will to Meaning (Throat Center, Logotherapy); Peak Experiences (Head Center, OM), and following the Experience of Union, the human being is overcome with Knowledge of Unity (Throat Center, AH), and Compassion (Heart Center, HUM). It is a psychology that embraces mystical or psychedelic peak experiences, and the nature of the personality after an individual has had an experience of Enlightenment - psychedelically elicited or spontaneous. Euro-American psychology does not recognize 'high' states as valid. They are not understood, and are devalued as pathological states of dissociation, hallucination or delusion. The chakra psychology, particularly from Vajrayana openly affirms AND classifies all these far out states of awareness that many long-term psychedelic enthusiasts have experienced, yet have not been able to integrate properly in their lives because the maps were not available. The chakra psychology IS the map. It was not 'made up' but was created by Highly gifted explorers of inner space long ago.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: ]
    #1946181 - 09/23/03 11:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"I am of the opinion that there exists a "life-force" that animates not only the pulse of the heart , but the cells that constitute our entire body."

I'm sure you are, but there are people with theories that contradict yours that have just as much validity. I'm not sure why you would accept your as truth without having a basis for it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1946190 - 09/23/03 11:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not entirely sure how creating a new theory that incorporates a handful of other theories constitutes proof.

"The chakra psychology IS the map."

I still haven't seen anything that constitutes evidence.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: Phluck]
    #1946492 - 09/24/03 01:31 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps you could find some of the answers your looking for, or suitable discussion in the science&technology room. Since this is a place to discuss SPIRITUAL & PHILOSOPHICAL ideas, i deemed it wholly necessary to keep my subject matter as such. The closest you will come to "evidence" of chakras comes through study of schools of thought concerned with constitution of man. The "ageless wisdom" is just that i suppose, "evidence" of our constitution& true heritage.


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