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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460834 -

Then explain, instead of saying nothing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460839 -

Colin powells chief of staff, along with countless other defense experts agree that Israel is indeed a strategic burden on the u.s. Military.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCQQtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNpAs3Ze6N9I&rct=j&q=Zionist%20lobby%20control%20YouTube&ei=ctvaTo7NH5TKiALOtaGrCg&usg=AFQjCNHQBucnAnx2-tF8TdLrmnX11QYEDA

Interview with chief of staff is in this film somewhere.


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460873 -

You may want to read up on the history some more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_Civil_War_in_Mandatory_Palestine

"In the immediate aftermath of the United Nations' approval of the Partition plan, the explosions of joy amongst the Jewish community were counterbalanced by the expression of discontent amongst the Arab community. Soon after, violence broke out and became more and more prevalent. Murders, reprisals, and counter-reprisals came fast on each other's heels, resulting in dozens of victims killed on both sides in the process. The impasse persisted as no force intervened to put a stop to the escalating cycles of violence[6][7][8][9]

According to Benny Morris, much of the fighting in the first months of the war took place in and on the edges of the main towns, and was initiated by the Arabs. It included Arab snipers firing at Jewish houses, pedestrians, and traffic, as well as planting bombs and mines along urban and rural paths and roads.[10] Morris also says that by the end of March 1948, the Yishuv had suffered about a thousand dead.[11] According to Ilan Pappe, by January 1948, 400 Jewish settlers had been killed while attempting to maintain contact with isolated Zionist settlements established "in the heart of Palestinian [Arab] areas", while 1500 Arabs had been killed in the "random bombardments and shellings of their villages and neighbourhoods".[12] According to Yoav Gelber, by the end of March, there was a total of 2,000 dead and 4,000 wounded.[1] These figures correspond to an average of more than 100 deaths and 200 casualties per week in a population of 2,000,000."

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460884 -

This is a really good fly-on-the-wall style documentary, where an Israeli filmmaker interviews various people from both sides in the conflict.

Checkpoint:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0391857/



Another good one by the same filmmaker, this one examining antisemitism.

Defamation:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1377278/



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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15462582 -

Chespirito said:
I believe the war he (John) was referring to is the 6 Day War.  From my perspective Israel captured land pretty fairly in that war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_days_war

Edit: Nevermind, I assume he is talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

Also a fine war imo


Yeah, I'm referring to the 1948 war and the six day war primarily.

The 1948 war resulted in the first large-scale gains of land provisioned to the arab state under the partition plan.  The six day war resulted in the rest of Palestine being conquered by the Israelis.  In both cases, Israel was attacked by foreign states in an aggressive war that, in my opinion, violated international law.  As Israel was the defender and was attacked from and on lands given to the arab state under the partition plan, I think their subsequent occupation is legitimate.


LightShedder said:
Palestine indeed was a nation before England illegally handed over to Lord Rothschild in the Balfour declaration.


Is that what happened?  I thought the government simply wrote a letter saying they viewed the creation of a jewish state favorably.  What does this have to do with anything and how does it amount to Palestine being "illegally handed over to Lord Rothschild"?

Quote:
And no, if you want to claim that Israel gained that land post-1948 through lawful war, the burden of proof is on you. And no, proof doesn't mean the story as told by youth-freemason alumni Walter Cronkite



Well, I'm not so informed on the topic as to be able to speak as to all the land in question, so I will simply say that the major events resulting in Israeli's gain of arab-partioned lands (the 1949 armistice and the conclusion of the six-day-war) seem lawfull as gains in a just war against foreign aggressors.

Rothschild, freemasons, and Walter Cronkite don't enter into the equation as far as I'm concerned. :wtf:


LightShedder said:
Difference: if the natives of America fought back today and said we've been here forever, I wouldn't dare claim that I am chosen by god to be here as the Israelis are today.


This kinda thing was constantly mentioned in previous threads and in this thread's earlier days as well.  It seems a pretty weak cherry-picked argument.  Yes: I think we can all agree that the contents of the Bible don't matter, and that someone's claim to god-given-rights amount to nothing.  This doesn't answer the question of whether Israel's existance is wrong or whether it is harming anyone's legitimate rights.

Perhaps we can't say anyone has been given the land by god, but the Israeli's occupy it defacto, and they seem to have pretty good title: being given the land from the UK who themselves aquired the land in a defensive war.  The rest of the arab-partitioned lands Israel occupies were gained through means as discussed previously.  (it doesn't seem the arab state ever actually materialized on a national scale- seems the "arab palestinian state" was just a puppet of the surrounding governments from the start).

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
    #15462742 -

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15462849 -

Here is a new documentary by another Israeli filmmaker.



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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: CanadianCronic]
    #15462905 -

If you have an argument or fact to relay, whether original or from some other source, please simply provide it.  Videos tend to be pretty inefficient means of communicating relevant points, and don't really further the discussion any.  (and many times they simply don't provide any relevant commentary or substantiation for the broad claims made by the person posting them, making them a waste of time).

Its not a rule or anything, but I'd appreciate it in this thread. Especially since I still don't believe any explanation for how Israel's existance is wrongful has been put forth despite the number of people who have claimed such.  The only claims I can recall is that Israel occupies lands illegally/not granted by the UN partition plan, and that Israel is complicit in settlements in palestinian lands.  I don't recall either of these being substantiated as wrongful yet in this thread.

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: CanadianCronic]
    #15462958 -

I'm not going to watch 30 minutes if it's bs.  Please summarize this video.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15463018 -

Of the three videos I posted, the first, "Checkpoint" is the most worth watching. Just footage of a "normal" day at Israeli checkpoints in the occupied territories. Much like a picture is worth a thousand words, the best I can do is add my own commentary, and that isn't going to do things justice. The second video is also excellent, looking at how the Israelis have a persecution complex. Bear in mind it is done by an Israeli, before you just dismiss the idea offhand. The third one is rather dry, and likely to be thought of as BS by icelander, but it looks at the propaganda in the school texts.


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: CanadianCronic]
    #15463398 -

You got it wrong (why am I not surprised)  I think there is some truth to some of what you say here but if I was surrounded by my enemies I might be a little paranoid.  It's not like no one has never tried to actually wipe them out or claim that as a cultural and national goal, something you conveniently ignore.  Personally I think most of the Mideast is violently mad.  Every country uses propaganda imo. Do you think the other Mideast countries don't do even more of it?  Personally If I was Israel I'd never let them cross my borders at all or live in my country which they do by the way. What's up with that dude?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15463416 -

Quote:
Icelander said:if I was surrounded by my enemies I might be a little paranoid.


:laugh2:


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15463424 -

LightShedder said:
Zappa: I certainly made no claim that 20 million Jews control 6 billion people. Not sure how you came out with that assumption. How about presenting evidence to counter the facts I mentioned like Balfour declaration, Rothschild history with modern-Israel, or go through the timeline I cited earlier and refute the world-concept presented there in. Or you could misrepresent my position and resort to slander if you please.


Oh no?  I quote:



zappaisgod said:
LightShedder said:
Icelander said:
If you look at the history of any country you will find similar goings on in the creation of that country. America comes to mind.


Difference: if the natives of America fought back today and said we've been here forever, I wouldn't dare claim that I am chosen by god to be here as the Israelis are today. On top of this, if we did make this claim, and then through manipulating world governments by controlling currency, we involved other unrelated nations in the conflict, I doubt anyone would try and defend our actions. This is what Israel is doing. If you follow the money you find that the owners of all central banks in the world are families that have been deeply involved with founding modern Israel. Balfour declaration....


:rofl2:

There are less than 20 million Jews in the whole world.  If you think that tiny number of people can control the 6 billion then you clearly must believe they are superior beings.  Bow down to your overlords.


"through manipulating world governments by controlling currency"

The Israelis control the world's currency?  :flowstone:

"owners of all central banks in the world are families that have been deeply involved with founding modern Israel"

Nobody owns the central banks.  They are public institutions. :flowstone:

The Balfour declaration reads:

Quote:
His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[1]


So what?  The Brits carved up the Ottoman Empire after WW1.  A tiny resource-free section was given to Jews.  Big fucking deal. 

I bet you're a Ron Paul fan.

By the way, please point to any of my posts which you deem to be slanderous.  Thanks in advance.


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15463559 -

Icelander said:
You got it wrong (why am I not surprised)  I think there is some truth to some of what you say here but if I was surrounded by my enemies I might be a little paranoid.  It's not like no one has never tried to actually wipe them out or claim that as a cultural and national goal, something you conveniently ignore.  Personally I think most of the Mideast is violently mad.  Every country uses propaganda imo. Do you think the other Mideast countries don't do even more of it?  Personally If I was Israel I'd never let them cross my borders at all or live in my country which they do by the way. What's up with that dude?


I read this a second time, and got a little more out of it this time. I am ready to expound beyond a laughing smiley now.

First off, what do I got wrong? Perhaps the aside stating the affirmation of your pre-conceived notions belies your overall thrust here...
You elude to the holocaust. I assure you the Palestinians aren't upset about that, and the question was what is the conflict about. Does a wrong done by Nazis give them the right to make Palestinians live under their heel? Most of the area is not "theirs", but they have gone ahead and occupied it anyway, with military checkpoints all over. Did you watch "Checkpoint"? The border guards laughing about how they like to fuck with people for fun, and the scenes of them doing so? One guy looking at buddies ID card and then taking off with it, followed by the other hauling him off for not having one? Pick on anyone long enough and they are going to snap...

In answer to "or live in my country which they do by the way. What's up with that dude?", why are "aboriginals" (aboriginal is to original as abnormal is to normal...think about it. Fucking lawyers...) allowed to live in a country that is no longer theirs?


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: CanadianCronic]
    #15463778 -

The idea of the holocaust never crossed my mind. I was talking about recent historical wars started by enemies of Israel.  The land was given to them by the victors in a world war if I'm not mistaken. Winner take all.  So they didn't steal anything. What piece of earth has not changed hands through war many times over?  It's a fact of life. The land you stand on did not belong to you at one time but you have benefited by loss of others of that very same land. Aboriginal's that are allowed to live in a conquered land is at the will of the new landlords.  Usually they don't benefit much from it historically.  Again the winner is boss.  I didn't create this system of doing things.  It was here when I got here and from my study of human nature it's going to be here long after I'm gone.

I'm not giving back my land to the Indians are you? You have refused to address this question every time. If you won't give it back they why expect others to?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15463864 -

Icelander said:
The idea of the holocaust never crossed my mind. I was talking about recent historical wars started by enemies of Israel.  The land was given to them by the victors in a world war if I'm not mistaken. Winner take all.  So they didn't steal anything. What piece of earth has not changed hands through war many times over?  It's a fact of life. The land you stand on did not belong to you at one time but you have benefited by loss of others of that very same land. Aboriginal's that are allowed to live in a conquered land is at the will of the new landlords.  Usually they don't benefit much from it historically.  Again the winner is boss.  I didn't create this system of doing things.  It was here when I got here and from my study of human nature it's going to be here long after I'm gone.

I'm not giving back my land to the Indians are you? You have refused to address this question every time. If you won't give it back they why expect others to?


I have not made any refusals, but I am likely to soon, for this is going downhill fast. Gaza strip and the occupied territories is bigger than Israel, and the footage I am talking about (Wouldn't want to waste your time...) is recorded outside of Israel. How would someone in Texas feel about having to go through a Mexican checkpoint every time they wanted to get to and from work? Adding insult to injury, the guys with guns at those checkpoints like to fuck with people for fun, and of course this is all being done because they are "afraid" of the people they are bullying...

If you are just testing my gullibility, trying to get me going, then you have just found out that I am indeed ignorant as to your true abilities. Congratulations. Now fuck off, cause I may be gullible, but I am not outright stupid.


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: CanadianCronic]
    #15464372 -

Wow, this post is a piece of work.:lol: Texans are not blowing themselves up in Mexico and killing innocent Mexicans. Not a very good comparison. 

While I'm pretty sure some border guards fuck with people there are a majority who don't and honestly I'd hate to think about it if the roles were reversed. Many are calling for the complete destruction of Israel.

The need to flame and use personalisms imo is a sign of lack of ability and emotional maturity.

I never called you stupid or gullible, I was engaged in the debate of an issue. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: Icelander]
    #15464409 -

If you aren't just playing dumb, then I can only ascribe things to a confirmation bias.


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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: CanadianCronic]
    #15464415 -

Ha, have you even introduced any facts?  I skimmed through some previous posts of yours in this thread, why don't you actually explain whatever point it is you are trying to make using facts

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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: Icelander]
    #15464426 -

I think that these children, having grown up in a school system that avoids keeping score and pretends that you can teach self esteem have a bit of trouble dealing with actually, you know, being challenged at all.  Then they get out and it isn't all worship for their ancient bilious bummism.  "I want it therefor I must be given it".


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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