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Invisiblejohnm214
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Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness?
    #14082550 - 03/07/11 05:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hi. 

We've got a few posters who are quite concerned with zionism, and there are plenty of people around the world who hate Israel and want it gone.

My question is two fold:

  • a)  What harm is the existence of Israel causing anyone?  Are their any legitimate rights being infringed upon by its existence? 

    Often I hear folks expressing their displeasure with the Israeli state, but other than vague claims of "stolen" land and crap like that (with no explanation), I'm not aware of any prominent arguments against the state, or showing how its harming anyone by existing.

  • b) What is wrong with zionism, specifically, and how is it hurting anyone's legitimate rights?  As the term has some diversity of meaning, please be particular as to the problem and how that flows from zionism.
 



Thanks!  Hopefully this will lead to a discussion of the merits of these things.  The press certainly is keen to cover protests of Israel and various world leaders who claim the state shouldn't exist, but I've not heard much in the way of reasoned explanation.  Is there any?

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #14085635 - 03/08/11 08:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

can you be less biased?

1. the rights of palestinians which have their lands stolen, yes, the land stolen as in the fucking land was their PRIVATE property and the israeli state took it. There is also in israel a political party called yisrael beitenu which suggest to trade parts of land and an ethnic population transfer, this is taboo because it is colonialism according to western morality. Can you call a government which uses stone to break people's bone as a punishment something that has to do with anything leftist? just about as stupid as the leftist supporting legalisation of prostitution aka human trafficking.

2. zionism is jewish nationalism, jewish nationalism according to most racialist and nationalist theorist is too weak in itself to sustain itself militarily,the jewish people will either adopts wicked methods, remains a persecuted and wanderer, or vanish into inexistence( In canada,quebec the question of separation often comes back into question whether french canadians can exist as a separate people in canada)




1. israel and zionism comes from atheist jews such as theodore herzl who attacked his own people at the side of antisemites, they are also using religious zionist to get their cause across, this my friend, is hypocrisy and calling jews hypocrites is racist.

2. there is no different meaning to zionism, if there are such different meanings to the word you should declare them before i am called anti-semitic or any such bullshit.

3. zionism is blasphemy to judaism, zionism is blasphemy to human rights, f

4. you can be censored for criticizing israel, you can your career ruined for criticizing israel ,

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
    #14085684 - 03/08/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Israel causes harm to Islamic civilization by disrupting their hegemony in the region.  Multiculturalism and democracy are enemies of modern Islamic civilization.  So dangerous is Israel to this hegemony, that Muslims and Arabs use and abuse Palestinians by promoting them to be violent and hate filled - lest they see the virtues of multiculturalism and democracy.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: communeart]
    #14085857 - 03/08/11 09:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
can you be less biased?

1. the rights of palestinians which have their lands stolen, yes, the land stolen as in the fucking land was their PRIVATE property and the israeli state took it. There is also in israel a political party called yisrael beitenu which suggest to trade parts of land and an ethnic population transfer, this is taboo because it is colonialism according to western morality. Can you call a government which uses stone to break people's bone as a punishment something that has to do with anything leftist? just about as stupid as the leftist supporting legalisation of prostitution aka human trafficking.

2. zionism is jewish nationalism, jewish nationalism according to most racialist and nationalist theorist is too weak in itself to sustain itself militarily,the jewish people will either adopts wicked methods, remains a persecuted and wanderer, or vanish into inexistence( In canada,quebec the question of separation often comes back into question whether french canadians can exist as a separate people in canada)




1. israel and zionism comes from atheist jews such as theodore herzl who attacked his own people at the side of antisemites, they are also using religious zionist to get their cause across, this my friend, is hypocrisy and calling jews hypocrites is racist.

2. there is no different meaning to zionism, if there are such different meanings to the word you should declare them before i am called anti-semitic or any such bullshit.

3. zionism is blasphemy to judaism, zionism is blasphemy to human rights, f

4. you can be censored for criticizing israel, you can your career ruined for criticizing israel ,



I just wanted this incoherent rant preserved to expose the quality of thinker who holds these views.  If your career could be ruined for criticizing Israel the NY Times would need all new editors.


--------------------

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214] * 2
    #14085908 - 03/08/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Johnm are you serious that you don't know that Israelis have stolen a lot of the land that they currently occupy? Do you not know that the "settlers" are not settling unoccupied land? Hasn't someone before shown you the maps of how much land was taken away? You do know that most of that was taken away without compensation, right?

Do you not know what the zionists do? Why just watch this recent documentary.

Zionism is a double edged sword, not only do you have the violent state actions lead by Zionism but individual extremists carrying this further.

Diecommie: what planet are you on?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: ScavengerType] * 1
    #14086549 - 03/08/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

> Johnm are you serious that you don't know that Israelis have stolen a lot of the land that they currently occupy?

If you don't want to lose your land, then don't start a war you can't win.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Seuss]
    #14086556 - 03/08/11 12:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Johnm are you serious that you don't know that Israelis have stolen a lot of the land that they currently occupy?

If you don't want to lose your land, then don't start a war you can't win.



:thumbup:

No shit.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Seuss]
    #14086566 - 03/08/11 12:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Keep that shit up and you might just get a nasty PM from the Scavenger.  Or maybe even, horror of horrors, ignored by his eminence.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Seuss] * 1
    #14086655 - 03/08/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Johnm are you serious that you don't know that Israelis have stolen a lot of the land that they currently occupy?

If you don't want to lose your land, then don't start a war you can't win.





My thoughts exactly. If you lose land in a war it is not yours anymore and imo if you start the war and lose land it wasn't stolen.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
    #14086697 - 03/08/11 01:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"If some­body was send­ing rock­ets into my house, where my two daugh­ters sleep at night, I’m going to do every­thing in my power to stop that and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.” -- Obama

Hamas should not have pro­voked Israel in the first place.  They won that tiny piece of land in a war fair and square. Although it's quite obvious they are no saints but their enemies are the scum of the Earth who deserve nothing but death.  Shame regular Arabs and Israelis get caught in the middle.

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Offlinedynomite
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #14086701 - 03/08/11 01:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm::huxleyfacepalm:


--------------------
"The great nations have always acted like gangsters and the small ones like prostitutes." - Stanley Kubrick

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Offlineamilibertine
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: dynomite]
    #14086749 - 03/08/11 01:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Roger Waters on Israel

I'm blown away by how people in America think that Israel is the good guy.  It's not.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: dynomite]
    #14086757 - 03/08/11 01:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Since you don't have a valid response. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinedynomite
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: dynomite]
    #14086801 - 03/08/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)


brought to you by the military industrial complex and religious peoples of America


--------------------
"The great nations have always acted like gangsters and the small ones like prostitutes." - Stanley Kubrick

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: despisedicon] * 1
    #14086902 - 03/08/11 02:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Even if you don't count the parts lost to war before 67, the encroachment of settlement is almost 50% of Palestinian territory. This is a gross violation on Israel's part of the UN agreements that it was partied to following the conflict. Further in Israel's occupation they have committed many war-crimes. These are international issues and in fact what is going on in Israel is the world's buisness. Not to mention that Israel is a dangerous rogue state who despite having nuclear capabilities refuses to declare them or submit to UN nuclear treaties. How someone cannot know about Israel's internationally criminal status is beyond me and how they think it's no business of anyone else doubly so.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: ScavengerType] * 1
    #14087127 - 03/08/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Even if you don't count the parts lost to war before 67, the encroachment of settlement is almost 50% of Palestinian territory. This is a gross violation on Israel's part of the UN agreements that it was partied to following the conflict. Further in Israel's occupation they have committed many war-crimes. These are international issues and in fact what is going on in Israel is the world's buisness. Not to mention that Israel is a dangerous rogue state who despite having nuclear capabilities refuses to declare them or submit to UN nuclear treaties. How someone cannot know about Israel's internationally criminal status is beyond me and how they think it's no business of anyone else doubly so.



 

This is the part I agree with. (if true) If Israel is actually moving into occupied land than that is an act of war imo.  Even if not a recognized Palestine state.  I know I would fight with everything I had if someone did that to me.

I'm well aware there are no good guys in this world. And even if that land was left alone I'd guess the Palestinians would still want the rest of the land the Israelis occupy and take it if they had the means. Most humans don't go to war only because they believe they cannot prevail or the cost is too high.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14087147 - 03/08/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There is no such thing as Palestinian territory.  There was Egyptian territory, Jordanian territory, Syrian territory and Lebanese territory.  Palestinian territory?  Nope.  What was the result of Israel ceding Egyptian captured territory to the murdering morons?  They elected a terrorist organization and continued with renewed vigor the rocket attacks on Israeli villages.  Fuck them.


--------------------

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Offlinedynomite
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14087255 - 03/08/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is no such thing as Palestinian territory.  There was Egyptian territory, Jordanian territory, Syrian territory and Lebanese territory.  Palestinian territory?  Nope.  What was the result of Israel ceding Egyptian captured territory to the murdering morons?  They elected a terrorist organization and continued with renewed vigor the rocket attacks on Israeli villages.  Fuck them.



which side do you think murders more people? the people with crude,
short-ranged rockets or the people with one of the most advanced
militaries in the world?


--------------------
"The great nations have always acted like gangsters and the small ones like prostitutes." - Stanley Kubrick

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Offlinedynomite
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: dynomite]
    #14087288 - 03/08/11 03:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

you are a stupid american
which makes you a good american
:whacker:


--------------------
"The great nations have always acted like gangsters and the small ones like prostitutes." - Stanley Kubrick

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #14087326 - 03/08/11 03:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is no such thing as Palestinian territory.  There was Egyptian territory, Jordanian territory, Syrian territory and Lebanese territory.  Palestinian territory?  Nope.  What was the result of Israel ceding Egyptian captured territory to the murdering morons?  They elected a terrorist organization and continued with renewed vigor the rocket attacks on Israeli villages.  Fuck them.




So if Arkansas was annexed by a foreign country and then made an independent muslim state and the United States no longer claimed an interest in the territory, you would consider it illegitimate for the native Arkansas-ans to resist their new occupiers and create a new Arkansas-an nation?  I don't see how whether there was a historical state of Palestine or not even matters...

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