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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't?
    #3165022 - 09/22/04 03:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

???

Some might say it is because America gives Israel money, but America
also gives several Arab states money. Arab states also have immense
oil wealth. Why have the Arabs been so far incapable of establishing
democracy and stability? Why was Israel able to do it so effortlessly
and quickly? Are there cultural differences that explain this?


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InvisibleSteinM
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165033 - 09/22/04 03:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You must first be able to grow a brain before you can use it.


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165044 - 09/22/04 03:45 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I wasn't aware Israel would be considered "stable"

THe Arab world has been torn apart at almost every point of history by the west from the Crusades, to the World Wars, Western intervention in Iran/Iraq war, UN invervention and economic sanctions for nothing more than manipulative purposes to gain access to oil assets.

Isreal was able to do this because of the backing of the west. The control over the oil fields have continually changed hands between Mid East and West.

Kuwait .. i would consider stable.

Another major factor is education. But that comes with freedom.. and flourishes in times where living in fear of bombings isn't a norm.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165078 - 09/22/04 03:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Saying Israel gets money from us and so do Arab countries is a bit oversimplifying. Israel is the biggest recipient of American foreign aid of any country in the world. As for oil money, no nation has been able to maintain a stable economy based solely on oil, with the possible exception of Norway. It's diverse economies which are most often able to prosper. As for democracy, you have to remember that the majority of Israeli Jews immigrated from Western nations, so they have already gotten used to Western ideas about liberal democracy. Also, much of the Middle East is mostly a tribal society, so it's hard to have a democratic nation with all these tribes competing for power(many African states have the same problem).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165087 - 09/22/04 03:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

How can you call it a real democracy if non-Jews don't have the same rights of Jews.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3165095 - 09/22/04 03:56 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)


I wasn't aware Israel would be considered "stable"

The only instability that is experienced by Israel is when they
are attacked by Arabs. If left completely alone, it is a free
and prosperous country.


THe Arab world has been torn apart at almost every point of history
by the west from the Crusades, to the World Wars, Western
intervention in Iran/Iraq war, UN invervention and economic sanctions
for nothing more than manipulative purposes to gain access to oil
assets.

I am not saying that Arabs have never been wronged...I am asking
why they haven't been able to bring about democracy, stability,
and prosperity, when Israel has been able to do it so quickly.


Isreal was able to do this because of the backing of the west.

America also gives money to Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. Even
with our backing they are still dictatorships.


Kuwait .. i would consider stable.

But undemocratic. Stability doesn't mean shit if the people can't
determine who their leaders are. i.e. they have no freedom.


Another major factor is education. But that comes with freedom..

So in other words...because there is no freedom in the Arab world,
there is no decent education in the Arab world?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
    #3165108 - 09/22/04 04:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Because non-Jews(i.e. Arabs) will do anything they can to destroy
the Israeli nation. Allowing them equal rights and the right of
return would be suicide for Israel.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165115 - 09/22/04 04:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Why don't they just build that fucking wall already?
It's become clear that thse people would rather squabble over imaginary gods and blow each other up than make an honest effort to get along. Fucking childish.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3165119 - 09/22/04 04:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I wasn't aware Israel would be considered "stable"




it would be stable if it weren't for all those homocide bombers.

Quote:

THe Arab world has been torn apart at almost every point of history by the west from the Crusades




This is one thing people can't blame on the US, we weren't a country during the crusades.

Quote:

Another major factor is education. But that comes with freedom.. and flourishes in times where living in fear of bombings isn't a norm




who's keeping them hostage? Islam?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165128 - 09/22/04 04:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Because non-Jews(i.e. Arabs) will do anything they can to destroy
the Israeli nation. Allowing them equal rights and the right of
return would be suicide for Israel.




I'm talking about any non-Jew. A Mexican Catholic can move there and he won't have the same rights as Jews. You're also forgetting about Israel's large Israeli Arab population - wherein terrorists are rarely Israeli Arabs, most of them come from the occupied territories.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165141 - 09/22/04 04:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

> Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't?

For survival... they have to be 'stable' or the arab world will overrun them.

> How can you call it a real democracy if non-Jews don't have the same rights of Jews.

Nobody ever claimed that a democracy has to be perfect, or fair... corruption, bigotry, and discrimination occur everywhere regardless of the political or economical model followed by the society in question.

> Also, much of the Middle East is mostly a tribal society, so it's hard to have a democratic nation with all these tribes competing for power

Another good point.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Seuss]
    #3165153 - 09/22/04 04:13 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Nobody ever claimed that a democracy has to be perfect, or fair... corruption, bigotry, and discrimination occur everywhere regardless of the political or economical model followed by the society in question.

What's really classy is how everyone sings about Israel's 'democracy' when Palestinians don't even have the right of return.


--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
    #3165156 - 09/22/04 04:14 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)


I'm talking about any non-Jew. A Mexican Catholic can move there and
he won't have the same rights as Jews.

I guess they want to maintain the "Jewishness" of their state.
This assertion still doesn't answer why Israel has elected leaders
and had a prosperous economy(before Palestinians started blowing shit
up). Why has Israel progressed so much while none of the Arab states
have?


You're also forgetting about Israel's large Israeli Arab population -
wherein terrorists are rarely Israeli Arabs, most of them come from
the occupied territories.

But they still hate Israel and the "West" I'll bet. I remember on
Sept. 11 seeing video of Israeli Arabs in the Arab part of Jerusalem
jumping up and down for joy at hearing about the attacks. Most arabs
in general...whether they are Israeli citizens or not, hate the state
of Israel and the "West".


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165167 - 09/22/04 04:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I guess they want to maintain the "Jewishness" of their state.
This assertion still doesn't answer why Israel has elected leaders
and had a prosperous economy(before Palestinians started blowing shit
up). Why has Israel progressed so much while none of the Arab states
have?


I call hypocrisy - and everyone has the nerve to whine and bitch about Muslims wanting an Islamic state of their own.

But they still hate Israel and the "West" I'll bet. I remember on
Sept. 11 seeing video of Israeli Arabs in the Arab part of Jerusalem
jumping up and down for joy at hearing about the attacks. Most arabs
in general...whether they are Israeli citizens or not, hate the state
of Israel and the "West".


Ever wonder the fuck WHY?

Why everyone in the West is too stupid and arrogant to ask such a simple introspective question to themselves is beyond me.


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
    #3165190 - 09/22/04 04:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
I guess they want to maintain the "Jewishness" of their state.
This assertion still doesn't answer why Israel has elected leaders
and had a prosperous economy(before Palestinians started blowing shit
up). Why has Israel progressed so much while none of the Arab states
have?


I call hypocrisy - and everyone has the nerve to whine and bitch about Muslims wanting an Islamic state of their own.



Uh...I don't think there was anything in that post in which RandalFlagg implied that it was ok for Israel to maintain a Jewish state. He was just explaining that that's their motive.

Quote:

But they still hate Israel and the "West" I'll bet. I remember on
Sept. 11 seeing video of Israeli Arabs in the Arab part of Jerusalem
jumping up and down for joy at hearing about the attacks. Most arabs
in general...whether they are Israeli citizens or not, hate the state
of Israel and the "West".


Ever wonder the fuck WHY?

Why everyone in the West is too stupid and arrogant to ask such a simple introspective question to themselves is beyond me.



It would be nice if Muslims did the same.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
    #3165210 - 09/22/04 04:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)


I call hypocrisy - and everyone has the nerve to whine and bitch
about Muslims wanting an Islamic state of their own.

???

The Muslims have Islamic states of their own already(
Saudi Arabia, Iran) and others where Islam is so
pervasive in the society that it might as well be a theocracy
(Pakistan for example). I am not complaining about Muslims having
an Islamic state. I am asking WHY Arabs are incapable
of installing governments that are ELECTED. I continually hear about
how some Muslims hate their governments and want democracy. Well,
WHY is every single one of their governments a dictatorship?


Ever wonder the fuck WHY?

Why everyone in the West is too stupid and arrogant to ask such a
simple introspective question to themselves is beyond me.

I am NOT asking why. I am stating the fact that it is suicide for
a nation to invite, or to give full rights to, people who are
dedicated to its destruction. Would you want fundamentalist
Christians who think Muslims should be executed moving to Arab
countries and demanding full rights and that their whims be
carried out?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3165228 - 09/22/04 04:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Uh...I don't think there was anything in that post in which RandalFlagg implied that it was ok for Israel to maintain a Jewish state. He was just explaining that that's their motive.

He made the statement that Israel wanted to maintain its 'Jewishness'. Yet people complain when Muslims want to maintain their 'religiousness', and so on with Christians who wish to maintain their faith in the United States.

It would be nice if Muslims did the same.

That argument doesn't work because a) very few Muslims actually carry out acts of terrorism b) Muslims do not hold responsibility for the acts carried out by members of the same faith and c) The evils committed by the West are carried out by governments, not young 20-35 year old fanatics.


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3165235 - 09/22/04 04:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I call hypocrisy - and everyone has the nerve to whine and bitch
about Muslims wanting an Islamic state of their own.

???

The Muslims have Islamic states of their own already(
Saudi Arabia, Iran) and others where Islam is so
pervasive in the society that it might as well be a theocracy
(Pakistan for example). I am not complaining about Muslims having
an Islamic state. I am asking WHY Arabs are incapable
of installing governments that are ELECTED. I continually hear about
how some Muslims hate their governments and want democracy. Well,
WHY is every single one of their governments a dictatorship?



Wait..are we talking about Arab states or Muslim states? Yes, every Arab state is a dictatorship, but Indonesia is a republic, and Turkey is a parliamentary democracy.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
    #3165244 - 09/22/04 04:35 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Uh...I don't think there was anything in that post in which RandalFlagg implied that it was ok for Israel to maintain a Jewish state. He was just explaining that that's their motive.

He made the statement that Israel wanted to maintain its 'Jewishness'. Yet people complain when Muslims want to maintain their 'religiousness', and so on with Christians who wish to maintain their faith in the United States.



My point still stands.

Quote:

It would be nice if Muslims did the same.

That argument doesn't work because a) very few Muslims actually carry out acts of terrorism b) Muslims do not hold responsibility for the acts carried out by members of the same faith and c) The evils committed by the West are carried out by governments, not young 20-35 year old fanatics.



I do not hold responsibility for the actions of my government any more than you hold responsibility for the actions of Muslim terrorists(though you seem to defend them far more than I defend my government).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3165246 - 09/22/04 04:35 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)


Wait..are we talking about Arab states or Muslim states? Yes, every
Arab state is a dictatorship, but Indonesia is a republic, and Turkey
is a parliamentary democracy.

I was talking about Arab states. When I say "Muslim", I use that
term because Islam is so heavily entrenched in the Arab world.


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