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Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils?
    #13616208 -

I've been reading a bit about the political and philosophical theories that were claimed to back some of the more notorious movements in modern history.  From Lennin and Stalin's sociological aims to Pol Pot and Mao, to Nazism and western Eugenics, the more destructive and shocking, in retrospect, movements all seem to be premised upon an idea that a particular class of people and traits (whether explicitly biological, socio-economic, religious, or more subjectively described) are to be cultivated.

Is social engineering, encouragement of particular traits amongst a people or group, inherently wrong?  If not, can such aims be practically seperated from whatever justifies and leads to the evils mentioned above?

While its perhaps more obvious to focus on those groups explictly condemned in these various movements, is the very notion of a good class of people to be encouraged and cultivated a dangerous and unwise, even repugnant goal? 

(In speaking of 'social engineering', I refer here, imperfectly, to those  which premise classifications of the person on his inherent attributes or culture and not a result of his behavior, such as imprisonment for theft or violence, et cet)

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: johnm214]
    #13616652 -

I find that the further you get away from considerations of individuality the more you pervert justice.  This is why I often argue that "society" doesn't really exist.  It is an abstract concept.  It is fine to use for study but a very bad idea to use for policy.


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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13617588 -

> This is why I often argue that "society" doesn't really exist.  It is an abstract concept.

An interesting point that I had not considered.  I'll have to think about this, but on the surface it appears legit.  Almost every "unjust law" or exception to the US Constitution that I can think of is justified by the needs of society outweighing the rights of the individual.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Seuss]
    #13619298 -

Seuss said:
> This is why I often argue that "society" doesn't really exist.  It is an abstract concept.

An interesting point that I had not considered.  I'll have to think about this, but on the surface it appears legit.  Almost every "unjust law" or exception to the US Constitution that I can think of is justified by the needs of society outweighing the rights of the individual.


Yeah, I too think its a valuable perspective to take.

I don't see how the morality of an action, or its justice or practicality, is effected by virtue of the body implementing it, nor by whether this body is "society", "government", et cet.

If I shoot some guy ramsacking my house in the middle of the night, it is just regardless of whether the law thinks I should have tried to scare him off first or whatever.  Similarly, beating some guy due to racial animus is  unjust whether it is sanctioned by the law, carried out by the law, or condoned by a legal system that fails to indict due to the prevailing prejudice of the time.

This viewpoint is actually what convinced me to sway from the more-liberal ideas I held in my younger highschool years: I couldn't justify how I could not steal to sustain myself and my lifestyle yet I favored the compensation of wealth to that end via social welfare programs.  It is this cognitive dissonance that should clue folks in that their ideas are flawed.

Our laws should be just- the other way around is fallacious: that something is a law does not make it just nor change the justice of it to any degree.

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13620594 -

zappaisgod said:
  This is why I often argue that "society" doesn't really exist.  It is an abstract concept. 


agree.  "society" is simply a collection of individuals.  thus, individual rights are most vital to a healthy "society."


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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Yrat]
    #13620897 -

> agree.  "society" is simply a collection of individuals.  thus, individual rights are most vital to a healthy "society."

I'm pretty sure I saw a Star Trek movie where they show that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".  The peasants get pretty pissed when the King decides that the needs of the few (nobility) outweigh the needs of the peasants.  Many a noble have lost their head because of this mistake.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Seuss]
    #13627127 -

Seuss said:
> agree.  "society" is simply a collection of individuals.  thus, individual rights are most vital to a healthy "society."

I'm pretty sure I saw a Star Trek movie where they show that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".  The peasants get pretty pissed when the King decides that the needs of the few (nobility) outweigh the needs of the peasants.  Many a noble have lost their head because of this mistake.


are you equating "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" to ""the needs of the many outweigh the rights of the few"?

i don't think you are, i just think there's an important distinction there.


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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: johnm214]
    #13627790 -

inspiring revolution is the key to these movements success...and that is the sole domain of the individual revolutionary...the tyrants only know themselves and are the main identity of a force with multiple personality disorder

to use a class to spur revolution is natural and very practical...and to engineer a class is the total show...to have a pre-existing or derived doctrine give these movements enough power to be named appropriately

when conditions of the present are held to be irrelevant by a social leader with enough force, one who appears with an unwavering personal philosophy, revolution is forced by the conditions he ignores but claims he will change


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Cherk]
    #13627817 -

a movement that is started with a revolution and who's ideals and theories are carried out verbatim regardless of affect and it's sole intentions is a magnificent, wild thing and something I encourage


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Cherk]
    #13627984 -

you're not serious, right?

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Yrat]
    #13630005 -

> are you equating ...

I don't know, honestly.  I hear a lot of socialists defending their beliefs claiming that the needs of society outweigh the needs/rights of any single individual.  Playing into the notion that society doesn't really exist, which I am still pondering, then the claim made by socialists becomes very interesting; the needs of a fictional group outweigh the needs/rights of you.  (Bleh, not sure where I am going with this... time for coffee.)


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Seuss]
    #13630041 -

Are you guys tweaking?
Quote:
> This is why I often argue that "society" doesn't really exist.  It is an abstract concept.

An interesting point that I had not considered.  I'll have to think about this, but on the surface it appears legit.  Almost every "unjust law" or exception to the US Constitution that I can think of is justified by the needs of society outweighing the rights of the individual.


Most of the qualifiers used to make that statement are subjective to you as well as being abstract. There is probibly more agreement on what is and isn't society than what is and isn't unjust.

Aren't you the same people who support the use of the social body government in means of warfare, torture and strict enforcement of a specific type of property rights?

Also Johnm's analysis fails. He is looking at feel good rhetoric or rhetoric made for shaping opinion. The target populace of this propaganda was supposed to look at it and see a mirror image of themselves.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13630106 -

> Are you guys tweaking?

Please, do not start with the personalisms.  I've been warning people in other threads.  My tolerance for ad hominem is at an all time low.  (I've made the mistake myself. I'm not claiming to be perfect.)

> There is probibly more agreement on what is and isn't society than what is and isn't unjust.

As we have discussed in the past, just because a lot of people believe something to be true doesn't make it true.  At one time almost every single living person believed the Earth to be flat, but they were wrong.  Doing a quick search on "what is society" one of the first hits came up with:

What Is A Society?
Quote:
When you start to delve into the question "what is society" you will realize that this is indeed a very deep subject. There is no one answer because a society is not a thing that can be easily explained in one or two sentences. In fact, this could actually be a topic for a thesis by a graduate student in philosophy and it would take many volumes to include all the possible answers.


My issue with "society" is that the term is very open ended.  It has many different meanings depending upon context making it nearly impossible for anybody to agree upon a simple definition.  Even the free dictionary, which is usually fairly concise, has 19 definitions for the word.

It is also a fallacious comparison to equate the definition of society to what is lawful (just).

> Aren't you the same people who support the use of the social body government in means of warfare, torture and strict enforcement of a specific type of property rights?

This is a false dichotomy as supporting a type of government does not mean one also supports warfare, torture, etc.  It is also an appeal to ridicule and a red herring, among other fallacies.  It is difficult to answer your question, as I am unsure what you are asking.  I suspect that you are simply trying to be facetious.  If I am incorrect, I apologize, and ask that you clarify your question.

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Seuss]
    #13630767 -

ScavengerType, in his courageous pursuit of learning, has me on ignore so he didn't see the whole post I made and which you only excerpted.

Don't bother quoting the whole thing for his education.  It won't help.


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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Seuss]
    #13631051 -

Seuss said:
Quote:
> Are you guys tweaking?

Please, do not start with the personalisms.  I've been warning people in other threads.  My tolerance for ad hominem is at an all time low.


I've been called a parasite, a thief, inarticulate, lazy and stupid on this board, but "are you guys tweaking" is considered a personalism? You're joking, right?

In reference to the topic, I think that social engineering is definately going on, especially in the public schools but also in many workplaces, churches, and through the media.  People are so heavily influenced by and dependent upon institutions...I do not think that is a good thing.  In the event of a national emergency, be it a terrorist attack or great civil unrest, most people will not have the necessary survival skills.

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13631254 -

> I've been called a parasite, a thief, inarticulate, lazy and stupid on this board, but "are you guys tweaking" is considered a personalism? You're joking, right?

And I've been called a liar, disingenuous, egotistical, among other names recently, in this forum.  As I said, I'm tired of seeing the personalisms and have started to warn people when I notice them.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13631349 -

HippieChick8 said:
I've been called a parasite, a thief, inarticulate, lazy and stupid on this board, but "are you guys tweaking" is considered a personalism? You're joking, right?


Well you did admit to being a tax cheat and sometimes you are inarticulate just as I suppose I am occasionally.  As for parasite if you refuse to work and pay taxes but take the benefits, well, what is that? 
Quote:


In reference to the topic, I think that social engineering is definately going on, especially in the public schools but also in many workplaces, churches, and through the media.  People are so heavily influenced by and dependent upon institutions...I do not think that is a good thing.  In the event of a national emergency, be it a terrorist attack or great civil unrest, most people will not have the necessary survival skills.


Only government institutions can inflict social engineering on the populace.  None of the others have any authority.  I don't think you quite understand what social engineering is.  It isn't persuasion.  It's coercion.


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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13631637 -

zappaisgod said:
Quote:
As for parasite if you refuse to work and pay taxes but take the benefits, well, what is that? 


So you think a person that works for 27 years, get 6 months of UI (which is taxed, by the way) and then goes back to work is a parasite?  Take a biology class! :tongue:

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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: HippieChick8]
    #13631818 -

That isn't what I recall you saying you were doing but even so, unless you were in the top 5% of income, yes, you are a parasite.


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Re: Communism, National Socialism, and Social Engineering- Common Evils? [Re: Seuss]
    #13632234 -

Being called a liar and disingenuous are practically the same thing and it isn't an ad hom attack. I called you those things because you were lying and misrepresenting your views, that's not name-calling that's an accusation.

I don't know who called you egotistical nor do I know the context, but if the shoe fits.

Also you are on the shroomery, people who post in the PD forum here do have "legalize meth" in their sigs, so it's hardly a stretch to ask that question. Particularly when it looks like you are rapping on in such a way without making clear connections as to how what you are saying is related to each other in a self congratulatory circle jerk type of fashion.

Anyway you did not say lawful you said just, and if you replaced the word just in what you said with lawful it would make even less sense. So... what exactly are you on? Or should I accuse you of being disingenuous again?

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To the OP's topic, as HippieChick8 said there is clear social engineering going on in probibly every country and many of their institutions. Hell it's even arguable that using the/a particular structure of property law endorsed by libertarians is a market based form of social engineering. What makes the arbitrary determination of wealth often conferred from birth but often due to chance or exploitative social characteristics much different than the methodology used by Hitler or Pol Pot to decide who should thrive in society and who should be exploited or dead?

Look at this labeling of people who receive social welfare as parasites, that's the same kind of labeling used in the rhetoric I had outlined earlier except it is being projected on a them class (who's existence is supposed to be curtailed). Which for some reason Johnm's critique didn't mention. One could look at Atlas Shrugged as a lengthy example of this kind of rhetorical device.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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