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OfflineLarrythescaryrexS
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Communism
    #1167655 - 12/24/02 01:43 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

what is "wrong" with it?
Why didn't we like it?

The little I know of it doesn't sound to bad.


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1167670 - 12/24/02 01:51 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Read the "Democracy and Capitalism" thread of not too long ago. Lots of talk about communism in there.


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: Communism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1167679 - 12/24/02 02:01 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

you mean alot of misinformation :wink:

careful what you absorb, larry


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1167815 - 12/24/02 03:11 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

First of all, be prepared for posts saying that Communism has yet to exist on earth, or at the very least that countries which claim to be Communist aren't really Communist at all.

To answer the question, though, the reason Americans don't like it is that:

a) it can't work for long.

b) it inevitably involves the violation of individual rights.

The reasons Bulgarians and Romanians and East Germans and Poles and Cambodians and Hungarians and Czechoslovakians etc. don't like it is that they had to live under it. Not that they lived under REAL Communism, mind you.

pinky


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: Communism [Re: Phred]
    #1169730 - 12/25/02 02:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

It is a great theory but people of power believe that they are better than everyone else then theyre one step closer to us common poor folk...

Communism is always destroyed from within.


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GabbaDj

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Communism [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1169754 - 12/25/02 03:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

It may be a great theory for some as yet unknown race of sentient beings somewhere out there in the vast universe, but it is a flawed theory for Homo sapiens sapiens.

It is not that it is destroyed from within, but that it ignores reality. As my grandfather used to say, "Wishing it were so doesn't make it so".

pinky


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OfflinePinkEchoes
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Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1169786 - 12/25/02 03:18 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

i asked that question in my civics class in grade 10, and the teacher yelled at me, and told me not to question him. he kpt ranting and raving about how it was evil, and democracy was perfect. if i only knew what i know now, i could have produced a brilliatn argument and put him in his place. i wish the education system would tell us everything, not just stuff they want us to know, or just plain lies.


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Offlineehud
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Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1170368 - 12/25/02 08:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I like to have my own things.  Sometimes I like to share but i dont want anybody telling me I have to share.  I am a good example of why comunism wont work. :tongue:  Hard work is only good if it pays off in the end.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1170503 - 12/25/02 10:02 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Communism is still alive and well. It's the system the corporations choose for themselves - massive government assistance and welfare, control over markets, closing down imports that threaten them, awarding each other 100% salary rises - "corporate directors of the world unite".

The rich love communism, only they want it just for themselves, not for everyone else. While they live in a communist paradise they insist that everyone else lives in the "free market" nightmare.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1170515 - 12/25/02 10:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

What's wrong with communism...well, depending on some interpretations it becomes too hostile to private property.

The communism that happened in the USSR was really fascism, no matter how much that fact may annoy pinksharkmark.

The USA and company didn't like it because it threatens the position of the ruling class. Stripping them of control over the means of production and giving it to the people.

Communism should be a system based on the workers, as opposed to the owners. What they called communism in USSR would have been a nightmare to Karl Marx though...

No, communism, taken in it's pure form being a theory of collective ownership of the means of production(factories, hydro dams, etc) IS a good idea. It can be taken to far obviously, just the big things should be collectively owned.

Communism has no place for the market either, which is kind of bad. Capitalism places the market higher than even democracy or human thought, which is worse.

It's well agreed amongst sensible left wing people that socialism is the desirable form of society. Kind of a communism light.

Socialism is the form of society that prevails in countries like Norway, which the UN voted #1 country to live in. Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, I think are other examples of this. In these countries you'll find a highly educated population, no extreme poverty and the crime that goes along with that. No ghetto scenes.

The flip side is it's harder to become a billionaire though. But since that affects only .000001% of the population, sensible societies embrace socialism.


Viva la revolution, onward my brothers...


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (12/25/02 10:37 PM)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Communism [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1170525 - 12/25/02 10:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Communism is a theory of ownership and is not neccessarily hostile to democracy AT ALL.

In fact, the totalitarian form in USSR is what made it resemble facism.

Totalitarian right wing regimes are worse I think than totalitarian left wing ones.

Democracy MUST be central in ANY political system. I think true democracies that are informed, (unlike USA, Canada, etc. which rely on private corporations to provide them news and education even sometimes)would naturally be socialitist.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (12/25/02 11:14 PM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Communism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1170533 - 12/25/02 11:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

>>>>The rich love communism, only they want it just for themselves, not for everyone else.

That's twisted. Capitalists do not want communism in any form.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Communism [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1170584 - 12/26/02 12:33 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

You only have to look at "free trade zones" for an example of pure corporate communism. The corporations pay zero tax, the government of the country pays for all the infrastructure, pays massive amounts in corporate welfare, the secret police and army are a tool for the corporations to put down any union activity or peoples uprisings, the corporate directors and the government award each other massive payments and bonus's. If any government treated it's own people like they treat the corporations it would be considered the most extreme communist society on earth.

The corporations choose communism for themselves but they are terrified of the poor getting the same benefits. Imagine the government taking care of it's own people the same way it takes care of the corporations. It's communism for the rich, "free market" for the poor.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1170602 - 12/26/02 01:27 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

loss of individual rights....need i say more?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Communism [Re: PinkEchoes]
    #1170603 - 12/26/02 01:29 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

****if i only knew what i know now, i could have produced a brilliatn argument and put him in his place****

a brilliant argument in favor of communism?  That i'd like to see :smirk:

and Democracy (which we are not) is far from perfect.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Communism [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1170985 - 12/26/02 08:26 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

carbonhoots writes:

It can be taken to far obviously, just the big things should be collectively owned.

Is a steel plant a big thing? An auto factory? A shipyard? Who decides how big a thing is allowed to become before it is to be seized by The Group?

It's well agreed amongst sensible left wing people that socialism is the desirable form of society.

I could comment on the phrase "SENSIBLE left wing people", but it would be wrong.

I am curious as to your definition of socialism. Does it include "public" ownership of the means of production? ALL means of production? Does it involve "redistribution" of wealth? To what extent are individuals allowed to retain their possessions? Is there a "progressive" income tax, a "flat" income tax, or no income tax at all?

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Communism [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1171123 - 12/26/02 10:15 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SENSIBLE left wing people



Now THAT"S an oxymoron if there ever was one.  :tongue:

In my life I've known quite a few left wingers. Some still are, most have crossed to the "dark side". This change comes as they begin making larger amounts of money and they begin to pay more and more taxes. During discussions with them as they would espouse "left wing" liberal sentiments their arguments would slow down as they realized their liberties and monies would be taken away. Most were OK with excessive taxes being paid and liberties being infringed until the line came too close. They wanted a shot at the "big" things. Some are unswayed in their ideas and goals but who knows what would happen if what they wish for actually came to pass.

I personally find the idea that others can tell me when I've crossed some line in their minds and can therefore not acquire any of the things I may like to, quite offensive.

I don't know you and so I cannot say you would fit this mold, but the majority of those I know who think as you do are the ones who have little ambition and spend more time than they should whining about how unfair life is.

Perhaps someday humans will decide as a lot to strive for the greater good, putting aside their personal dreams and desires, but I'm fairly certain it won't be in my lifetime.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Communism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1171134 - 12/26/02 10:21 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This change comes as they begin making larger amounts of money and they begin to pay more and more taxes. 


So the moral of the conservative story is "make money, fuck the poor and needy".    Sounds like a good one, sign me up for two. :wink:


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Communism [Re: Skikid16]
    #1171136 - 12/26/02 10:24 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Where did you see me say fuck anyone?

The moral of the story as I see it is if you want.... earn it. Don't wait for Santa to come along and drop things in your lap.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Communism [Re: Skikid16]
    #1171144 - 12/26/02 10:29 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No, the moral of the story is that many libbies are self rightious when they don't make much money then realize, as their pockets begin to fill, that their money is being taken away by the policies that they supported when they weren't paying the same amount of taxes that we "contributors" have been paying all along. Hell the top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of Income Taxes....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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