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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Registered: 08/19/03
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Communism vs Socialism
    #2029595 - 10/21/03 07:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm taking a political science course right now and we went over these 2 similar ideaologies the other day. I'm pretty sure I understand the differences, but its still fuzzy in some parts.

Does Communism differ from Socialism in that Communists believe in the violent overthrow of a governement while Socialists prefer using democratic means?


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"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2029668 - 10/21/03 07:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

They both suck.


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Anonymous

Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2030037 - 10/21/03 09:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

socialism means the redistribution of wealth by the coercive hand of the government, while communism is a state of affairs in which people voluntarily share wealth. communism is a utopia.

that's just one take i've heard on it...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: ]
    #2030109 - 10/21/03 09:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Communism is one of many forms of socialism. Other forms include social democracy(which has been practiced effectively in many European countries), state socialism(which is often confused with communism), and utopian socialism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTao
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2030543 - 10/21/03 11:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

another difference is that eventually in a communist society there will be no government.


social democracy rules by the way, but i don't want to get into it with mushy


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OfflineTao
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2030561 - 10/21/03 11:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

they way i see it, capitalism is based on competition and in any competition there are winners and losers. socialism is used to create 'safety nets' for people falling into poverty so that they and their children can still eat and have health care until they get back on their feet. it is a way of enforcing 'positive rights' (of course the question of the existence of positive rights is what's disputed by anti-socialist libertarians like mushmaster).


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Anonymous

Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2031007 - 10/22/03 01:12 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

the way i see it, a peaceful citizen should not be the victim of force, be it at the hands of muggers, criminal gangs, warlords, or elected officials.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: ]
    #2031060 - 10/22/03 01:29 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
the way i see it, a peaceful citizen should not be the victim of force, be it at the hands of muggers, criminal gangs, warlords, or elected officials.



What about by corporations and monopolies?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2031076 - 10/22/03 01:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

not them either. not anyone, actually.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: ]
    #2031125 - 10/22/03 01:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

to use the much misunderstood quote by machiavelli, i believe the ends justify the means. that is, the ends being someone's survival versus the means of someone having money 'forcibly' taken from them (i put 'forcibly' in scare quotes because its extremely rare that its actually physically forced from their grasp due to the tacit consent of them living in the country they do.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Tao]
    #2031188 - 10/22/03 02:10 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The question asked is how to distinguish between socialism and communism, not to air the perceived faults of either -- and certainly not to compare either to capitalism.

There have only been about seven hundred and forty threads about socialism vs. capitalism so far in this forum. Dig up one of those if you want to restart that old debate.

pinky


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OfflineTao
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2031367 - 10/22/03 03:45 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

youre right, sorry about that.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2031376 - 10/22/03 03:50 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

After a while, it's nice to start with a new post. With out all that baggage that some old posts would bring.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: ]
    #2032308 - 10/22/03 02:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"not them either. not anyone, actually."

In a libertarian society, how would you prevent an enormous corporation, which could easily grow much larger than government, from controlling the populace?

They've already become so ingrained into our current society, that they have a huge influence over what we read, eat, watch, and listen to.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Anonymous

Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Phluck]
    #2032344 - 10/22/03 02:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i was thinking about that today. i suppose it's possible that an extremely large company could have a "security service" even larger than the military\police force. this could create a problem.

i think my definition of "control" is a little different than yours though...

they have a huge influence over what we read, eat, watch, and listen to.

corporations do not 'control' any of these things.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: ]
    #2032399 - 10/22/03 02:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Sure they do, not through violent enforcement, or by directly violating someone's rights, but by having control of a market.

If McDonald's and Burger King completely changed their menus to offer a wide variety of healthier, yet cheap and tasty foods, we might begin to see a decrease in obesity in the country.

If music corporations decided to put more money behind artists who were more musically interesting than sexy performers, the musical tastes around the country would change.

All of the major media outlets in the US are owned by a handful of large corporations. You can't possibly argue that this doesn't have an effect on what is being reported.

People do have the freedom to seek out other music, art, and resources, but the majority of the people will continue to go after what is the most easily obtainable and readily available.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Phluck]
    #2032488 - 10/22/03 03:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

other than through advertizing (which i won't deny the effect of) they have no control over the market. they can only provide what people want.

if a company tried providing goods that people did not want, they would not stay in business very long.

it is really consumers that control the market. there are companies selling fast food and shitty pop music because that's what the people want. fortunately, no one's making you buy anything you'd rather not (with the possible exception of the government of course).

they can try to persuade you through advertizing, but they cannot force you. you can always drive past that mcdonald's like it wasn't even there, while flipping right past that shitty pop station on the radio.

fast food joints and shitty pop music have no bearing whatsoever on my life. i just ignore them. fortunately, i can do that.

you cannot simply ignore the government. force is what concerns me...


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: ]
    #2033140 - 10/22/03 06:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

By making it far easier to obtain McDonald's food, or Britney Spears music, you can cultivate a taste for these things. You can control people's preferences by ensuring that they're constantly exposed to these things.

Advertising has a huge effect, in some cases, it's even more effective than creating a quality product. If you've only got a handful of record companies supplying the major media outlets (which we do), then you're exposed to what the a&r guys decide will sell the best, they are marketed not on the strength of their music, but on whether or not their look and sound follows the current trends. Innovative new musicians are not given the same opportunities as pop stars.

Also, there are stores like Walmart. They have so many large outlets, that they get special discounts from the manufacturers. If they don't, they will buy from another company that will give them discounts. They are often able to sell products at wholesale prices, something that smaller retailers don't have the option of doing. Not only are small businesses destroyed, but customers are exposed only to the brands which Walmart chooses to sell.

Sure, they can't force me to shop at Walmart at gunpoint, but my other options become worse and worse, as Walmart grows.

Sometimes we need to quickly get a meal for under $5, it's hard to do that anywhere but at a fast food place.

The goal of government is to protect its citizens and to provide them with a decent environment to live, the goal of business is profit. I think a redesign of government would be far less destructive than reducing it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Phluck]
    #2033186 - 10/22/03 06:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

And this is related to the difference between communism and socialism exactly how?

Look, if you guys want to argue about whether government power is more harmful than corporate "power", start another thread. It's just as easy to hit the "new post" button as it is to hit the "reply" button. Stop derailing SquattingMarmot's thread, please. Show some respect.

pinky


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OfflineTao
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Re: Communism vs Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #2034342 - 10/23/03 12:24 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

actually, my post wasnt that bad. im saying that socialism is more positive, about putting in some safety nets to help the impoverished while communism is more negative, about taking property from the bourgeois owners and (trying to) distribute it equally.

and by the way mushmaster, i know youre a really intelligent guy, but i have to say i think you could do with some research on the amount of manufactured consent the media is able to produce. i'd reccoment stuart ewen's book "PR". after taking two university courses about politics and the mass media its quite clear they are able to change thinking if they choose to. after all, how many people use indymedia.org?

"In 1983, 50 corporations controlled the vast majority of all news media in the U.S. At the time, Ben Bagdikian was called "alarmist" for pointing this out in his book, The Media Monopoly. In his 4th edition, published in 1992, he wrote "in the U.S., fewer than two dozen of these extraordinary creatures own and operate 90% of the mass media" -- controlling almost all of America's newspapers, magazines, TV and radio stations, books, records, movies, videos, wire services and photo agencies. He predicted then that eventually this number would fall to about half a dozen companies. This was greeted with skepticism at the time. When the 6th edition of The Media Monopoly was published in 2000, the number had fallen to six."

with that kind of concentrated power, they can use the same news story all the way from national network news to blurbs on local radio stations cos theyre all owned by the same corps so they all use the same stories for efficiency's sake. and its impossible to report news without being biased, its just a question of how biased. there's a lot more to it than this, but i gotta get back to studying tonight.


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