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Re: Communism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1171161 -

The tax agrument doesn't really fly for me cuz a lot of the major wealth is out of the reach of taxation, causing the middle class to pick up more of the slack than they should.

A small example, the international money markets are not taxed, almost 2 trillion a day goes through these markets, destabilising economies in it's wake. If even a small tax was placed here, it would generate billions, and slow down the speculative investment which is destabalising.

Also, to fund public programs, governments can own businesses. This can easily reduce the taxes the citizens have to pay. What if banks more publicly owned? This profit could go a long ways to funding social programs, public transit, etc.
Basic insurance and utilities should be socialized too. No question about it.

Socialism isn't a pipe dream. It is a dream for a better world, of perfection of civilization. Of sharing. There have been socialist victories, and they are one of the reasons Canada has such a high standard of living.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: Communism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1171162 -

Quote:

  Where did you see me say fuck anyone?

You're right, you didn't, I just wrote my own ending to your story, sorry.  It just seems like conservatives are extreemly greedy, and from that observation, I made that conclusion.  Thats all. :wink:



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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Communism [Re: Skikid16]
    #1171168 -

Greedy? Nope. We just want to keep what we work for while offering the same chance for others to work for what they want.

Many of us, myself included give to family, friends and charities. Many libbies I know do, many do not.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Communism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1171187 -

In reply to:

while offering the same chance for others to work for what they want.

I agree completely, that's why there should be no such thing as Inheritance.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Communism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1171192 -

"Liberals measure compassion by how many people are
given welfare. Conservatives measure compassion by
how many people no longer need it."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Communism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1171329 -

he was bashing any form of government besides democracy, what i meant was, i wish i could have said what i know now, and shut him the hell up. i know cummonism has never exsisted on this planet, and it wont for awhile. and i also know democracy doesnt work either and its not as good as its cracked up to be.

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Re: Communism [Re: Skikid16]
    #1171369 -

No inheritance? What's the matter? No rich relatives that will leave you anything? If I earn it, I get to decide where it goes.
Use your head. If there is no inheritance, you just give most of your money before you die to whomever you were going to leave it to.

The problem remains this..... if you don't earn it, you don't deserve it. If you earn it, you get to decide what to do with it. If that means you leave it to whomever or whatever you want so be it.

I give away a good bit of money every year. I give it to the people and charities I choose. I made it, it's mine to give away as I see fit.

The only money I don't mind seeing the government spend is for defense and roads. There should be no welfare, social security, medicare, "earned income credit or any other form of handouts.... unless there is for example, someone truly disabled. I.E. birth defects, serious accident, or the like. And even then I think charities are the way to go, not handouts.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (12/26/02 01:11 PM)

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Re: Communism [Re: Evolving]
    #1171394 -

In reply to:

"Liberals measure compassion by how many people are given welfare. Conservatives measure compassion by
how many people no longer need it."


True enough.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Communism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1171492 -

Quote:

I give away a good bit of money every year. I give it to the people and charities I choose. I made it, it's mine to give away as I see fit.

Well everyone is not as charitable as you.  I see your point, but how bout this, a fraction of everyone's taxes should go to charities.  :wink:

Quote:

. If there is no inheritence, you just give most of your money before you die to whomever you were going to leave it to. 

Do you know when you're gonna die, I don't. 
Quote:

The only money I don't mind seeing the government spend is for defense and roads. 

What about education? 
Quote:

. There should be no welfare, social security, medicare, 

Hmmmmmm.........sounds like you are saying "fuck all the people on these progams".   


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Communism [Re: Skikid16]
    #1171534 -

The Feds should not be involved in education in any way. The government should stick to what's allowed in the constitution and bill of rights.

And as for giving away the money, just give some every year. Of ccourse if you wait until the last minute that might not work. Set up a trust. Inheritances should be allowed anyway. As I said before.... I earned it, I'll dispose of it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (12/26/02 01:08 PM)

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Re: Communism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1171543 -

In reply to:

The Feds should not be involved in education in any way.

Well than who should be. It should be a standardized system, if not you are just creating inequities from the get go.
In reply to:

The government should stick to what's allowed in the constitution and bill of rights.

Then there should be an education amendment. The constitution and bill of rights are great documents, but I don't think they should be end all be all law of the land. Times are changing, so should the laws and policies.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Communism [Re: Skikid16]
    #1171601 -

In reply to:

Well than who should be.



Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


In reply to:

The constitution and bill of rights are great documents, but I don't think they should be end all be all law of the land.


So work to change them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Communism [Re: Skikid16]
    #1171606 -

*****What about education?****

I know this is off topic but what does money have to do with education?  I say this because private school and those that home school spend less per student than public schools and the test scores for the public schools are the lowest.  Money does not equal smarts.

sorry...back to the topic at hand :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Communism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1172939 -

You seriously think that a private school that you have to pay $30,000 a year for your child to attend spends less on it's pupils than one in an inner city ghetto?

Look out of the window inny...are there two suns in the sky on your planet?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Communism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1173102 -

****You seriously think that a private school that you have to pay $30,000 a year for your child to attend spends less on it's pupils than one in an inner city ghetto? ****

"In fact, Education Department figures show that the average private elementary school tuition in America is less than $2,500. The average tuition for all private schools, elementary and secondary, is $3,116, or less than half of the cost per pupil in the average public school, $6,857."

There are private schools in this area that range from 2000 to 6000 a year (depending on where you live).  There isn't a school in america (K-12th) that costs $30,000 a year.

The Detroit public schools system spends more per student on average than those that are in the suburbs.

Why do you continue to make BS claims?

source:  School Vouchers

****Look out of the window inny...are there two suns in the sky on your planet? ****

apparantly the world i live in knows the benefit of reading and comprehension. :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Communism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1173148 -

You forget the fact that private schools also beg their alumni for money constantly. They rely on donations as well as tuition.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Communism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1173287 -

****You forget the fact that private schools also beg their alumni for money constantly****

You forgot the fact that you don't have to pay for it if you can't of don't want to. It doesn't take away from the fact that they spend less per student (because i highly doubt that every parent doubles their tuition to be nice) and have higher test scores...either way you look at it money is not the big problem, it's teachers that suck and students that are allowed to do what they want.

****They rely on donations as well as tuition. ****

maybe but not enough to tip the scales per student the ratio is 2:1


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Communism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1173431 -

You have to love a nice set of facts. Doesn't mean people will read, comprehend, and allow themselves to be swayed by them.

Nice post Innvertigo.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Communism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1173666 -

Hm..these education related posts almost should be in a thread of their own.

But, I can see how it ended up under the "Communism" thread, because there is a
public education system in America. Anytime you take money away from citizens
and use it to fund a large public service, that could be termed socialist and/or
communist.

This is a very complex issue, but everybody can agree on one thing: children in
America should have the access to a good education. no matter what their
socio-economic backgrounds are. Now, we must decide how we go about
making sure we are able to offer the best possible education to everyone.

Certain people say that we need to increase funding into public schools (especially
inner city ones), and that any move towards any kind of privatization of education
(vouchers, etc...) is wrong. They worry that if private individuals or organizations
were to take over the schooling of America's youth, there would arise a vast
difference in the quality of education that people would receive. The rich would
be able to afford the best, and the poor wouldn't be able to afford anything, thus
relegating the poor students to a continued poverty with no hope of escape. They
say that education that is free and open to all is the only way that we can ensure
that people of all socio-economic backgrounds get a "chance" in life. So
basically, their attitude towards education could be described as socialist. The
essential thing that is being offered (public education) is free, available
to all, and comes from one source, and as a result it often suffers from being of
low quality(just like most products and services in a communist or socialist state).

But, all the blame should not be put on the teachers and administrators for
crappy schools. Most of the schools are crappy because they are full of
kids from crappy neighborhoods who oftentimes don't care about much of
anything.

I think we should institute a nationwide educational policy that keeps a public
education available, but that also offers incentives for good student performance
and punishment for bad student performance. We already have this to a certain
extent(state governments coming in and seizing control of bad school districts,
etc..), but we need more policies in my opinion. This will help to get the public
schools into line a little bit more.

Also, I believe vouchers are very valuable because they allow poor students to
escape bad public schools and go to good private schools.

I dunno...very complicated issue.


RandalFlagg

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Re: Communism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1174404 -

Cato institute eh?  :smirk:

The Detroit public schools system spends more per student on average than those that are in the suburbs.

Depends what you mean by "spending more". More is spent on crumbling school buildings, chairs, leaking roofs. The actual amount spent on the childs education is a tiny fraction of that money. Certainly far, far less than the amount spent on a childs education in a private school. Any teacher wants to find a good salary they go into the private sector not public.

Tell me something, why do you think people would send their kids to private school if they thought you got more spent on your kids education in the middle of Compton?

Does it get hot on a planet with two suns?  :smile:

 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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