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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1204039 - 01/09/03 12:56 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1204071 - 01/09/03 01:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you still did not refute the fact that in spite of the "devestation" that these sanctions have caused, there is still funding for maintaining an air force and ground forces, maintaining over a dozen palaces, and issuing guns and ammunition to every citizen. and let's not forget that there is a choice here. they could easily end the sanctions and could have done so years ago.

In 1989, the literacy rate was 95%; and 93% of the population had free access to modern health facilities. Iraq had reached a stage where the basic indicators we use to measure the overall well-being of human beings, including children, were some of the best in the world. Now it is among the bottom 20%.

i really don't see how the sanctions have directly affected literacy rates. why do you need money to teach someone to read? further more, you act as if just because there are sanctions against them that there is no money flowing in whatsoever. people do have jobs, they are making money, and there are businesses in operation. so, its not as if everyone over there is just sitting around in the desert, penniless.

That leaves $13 billion available to the Iraqi government. If you divide that figure by the population of Iraq, which is 22 million, it leave some $190 per head of population per year over 3 years - that is pitifully inadequate.

actually, the math is a little off here. that would actually leave $590 per person.  :wink: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 21 days, 7 hours
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1204082 - 01/09/03 01:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

A woman is confronted by a big, strong, stranger. She doesn't know what he's planning, and she's cautious. Getting away from him is not possible. They're in a room and he's standing in front of the only way out, or she's in a wheelchair - whatever...Leaving the area is not an option.

So now he starts to do things she doesn't like. He asks her for money. She can try to talk him out of it, just like we argue for lower taxes, and maybe it will work...If it doesn't, and she gets outvoted, she'll probably choose to give it to him instead of getting into a fight to the death over ten dollars. You would probably choose to pay your taxes rather than have the police arrive to throw you in jail.

Maybe this big man demands some other things, other minor assaults on this women's dignity. When should she claw at his eyes or shove her ballpoint pen in his throat? When he tries to force her to kiss him? Tries to force her to let him touch her? Tries to force her to have sex with him?

Those are questions that each woman has to answer for herself. There is one situation, though, where I think women should fight to the death. That's when the man pulls out a pair of handcuffs and says, 'Come on, I promise I won't hurt you, this is just so you won't flail around and hurt either of us by accident. Come on, I just want to talk, get in the van and let me handcuff you to this eyebolt here, and I promise I won't touch you. I'm not asking you to put on a gag or anything, and since you can still scream for help, you know you'll be safe. Come on, I got a full bar in here, and color TV, and air-conditioning, great stereo, come on, just put on the cuffs.'

Now maybe the man is telling the truth, and maybe after talking to her for a while he'll let her go and she will have had a good time drinking champagne and listening to music. But if she gets in the van and puts her wrists in the handcuffs, she has just given up her future ability to fight, and now it is too late.

In other, more obvious words...how do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the government has the handcuffs out?

"Trust me", sayeth the government.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Evolving]
    #1204088 - 01/09/03 01:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

all those things that were in the brochure are pretty much what i described in my post. the key words in the brochure were "criminal activity".


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1204128 - 01/09/03 01:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

all those things that were in the brochure are pretty much what i described in my post. the key words in the brochure were "criminal activity".



Smoking pot is a criminal activity (and according to the government, supports terrorism), taking over $10k in cash out of the country is a criminal activity, running ads against an issue that a political candidate is for is illegal 60 days before an election. Do you have any idea how many new laws are passed every year? I've heard cops say that they could take any single individual and find them commiting at least one crime every day. There are so many laws that it is impossible for any one person to know for sure what is a criminal activity and what isn't.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1204199 - 01/09/03 02:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

-"In 10 years, child mortality has gone from one of the lowest in the world, to the highest."

actually, iraq's mortality rate before the gulf war was not one of the highest in the world. according to unicef, the mortality rate before US sanctions was 56 deaths for every 1000 births. that is pretty high and is nowhere near being one of the lowest. in 2002 the rate was about 57 per 1000. here's a link to my source:

iraqichildmortalityratein2002


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1204324 - 01/09/03 03:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

In 1989, the literacy rate was 95%; and 93% of the population had free access to modern health facilities.

in 1987 iraq's literacy rates for men was 53% and for women it was 31%. in 2002 it was 70% for men and 45% for women. here's my a link to my source:
iraqliteracyrates

so basically i've shown proof that sanctions have had no direct influence on iraq's infant mortality rate, literacy rates, and also that iraq is back to 75% of their pre gulf war oil export levels. all this data seems to indicate, to me at least, that iraqs social problems have more to do with saddam's mismanagement then the tyranny of the evil US war machine. for anyone to say that the problems that iraq is facing today is solely the responsibility of the US is absurd. if saddam really cared for his people he would step down and let the UN do their job and these sanctions would end.  :tongue: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



Edited by htownkid28 (01/09/03 03:12 PM)


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Evolving]
    #1204380 - 01/09/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you are right. all those things you mentioned are criminal activities, for the most part.(im not sure about running an ad against an issue that a politician supports, though im not in politics so it doesnt affect me). speeding is also an illegal activity, though almost everyone in the country does it everyday. does everyone get arrested for it or even a ticket for it? no. you are also right about new laws being passed every year. in fact, there are probably more laws out there than can be enforced. look, im not saying that im mr. clean and have never broken a law in my life. far from it. ive done my share of illegal activity. but does that mean that i live in fear of being hauled off to some concentration camp? no. i think there is alot of paranoia out there since 9/11 because people see the government trying to pass laws to help them crack down on acts of terrorism and they freak out. they think that because they frequent a certain website or enjoy some herb amongst friends that "big brother" is watching them. but, as i said before, i havent really noticed it affecting my lifestyle. im doing the same things now that ive been doing ever since i can remember.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1205725 - 01/10/03 12:14 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The thing is Kid I didnt claim anything . I provided information from reputable sources. If you want to refute them please provide me with information from equally reputable sources. As far as im concerned you dont fall into this category.

Quote:

  really don't see how the sanctions have directly affected literacy rates. 




That is a small part of what is being said in that paragraph and anyway are you trying to tell me that learning materials are free and teachers work for nothing?
I notice you chose not to comment on the fact that the people of Iraq had a level of well being that was one of the best in the world prior to sanctions.

Quote:

people do have jobs, they are making money, and there are businesses in operation. so, its not as if everyone over there is just sitting around in the desert, penniless.





They would be making alot more money if they were allowed to trade freely with the rest of the world. Basically, the sanctions imposed by the west are a form of Economic Terrorism designed to weaken the country and the morale of the Iraqi people to make it all the easier to step in and steal the oil.
Quote:

actually, the math is a little off here. that would actually leave $590 per person.   




Actually the Math is wrong..it should read $196. You forgot to divide $590 by 3.  :smirk:

 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1205726 - 01/10/03 12:19 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Can you point me to the child mortality rates for 1989. I can see the ones for 2002 but not 1989

Cheers.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1205736 - 01/10/03 12:32 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That is not a very clear table.

Anyway statistics damn statistics.....

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/1998/msg00356.html

Basically, who do you trust? what are the agendas of those providing the information?

Well Unicef are primarily concerned with helping people whereas the UN are primarily concernned with themsevelves. The sanctions are imposed by the UN so its no surprise to me that their figures paint a different picture to those of Unicef.

Sanctions have caused the deaths of more than 500,000 children in Iraq. Madeline Albright describes this as unfortunate but she did not deny it. I will try and find a link to this little gem.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1206321 - 01/10/03 08:38 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I provided information from reputable sources. If you want to refute them please provide me with information from equally reputable sources. As far as im concerned you dont fall into this category.

the only source you provided was a quote from a unicef representative which you didnt back up with a link. i provided data from more than one source and backed them up with links. now you want argue whose source is more credible.

I notice you chose not to comment on the fact that the people of Iraq had a level of well being that was one of the best in the world prior to sanctions.

actually i did comment on that subject. i would like to know what you are basing this claim on. please provide me with a link to your source for this. you are the one making this claim so back it up. literacy rates and infant mortality rates are the same now as they were before the sanctions, if that is what you are using to determine this state of well-being.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1206387 - 01/10/03 09:06 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

here's a link to the infant mortality rates in 1989 published by unicef:

childmortalityratesin1989

if you read the article it says that the rates doubled in the iraqi controlled areas and that there was steps that could have been taken by the iraqi government to reduce the rates but didnt.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1206440 - 01/10/03 09:22 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That is not a very clear table.

i dont know whats unclear about it. it first shows the literacy rates in 2000 then it shows the rates in 1987. all you have to do is go down the list and find the country you are looking for. i did read the article you posted. i would agree with it in the fact that before the sanctions iraq had some of the highest literacy rates in the arab world. however, if you look at the current statistics you will find that they still have some of the highest rates in the arab world.

Basically, who do you trust? what are the agendas of those providing the information?

so only statistics from unicef are credible? i think you just dont want to face the fact that you might be wrong. i made my arguement and provided the facts that i was able to find and if you choose to ignore this, then that is certainly your right. i would still like to see proof that the sanctions are directly responsible for the deaths of 500,000 children. let's just for arguements sake say that it is true. then iraq would still be to blame because if they would just have lived up to their end of the treaty the sanctions could have been lifted and the deaths could have been prevented.  :smirk:


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1206570 - 01/10/03 10:33 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Gazzbut writes:

Basically, who do you trust? what are the agendas of those providing the information?

Would you trust the authors of the actual UNICEF studies? Would their agenda be acceptable to you?

Well Unicef are primarily concerned with helping people whereas the UN are primarily concernned with themsevelves. The sanctions are imposed by the UN so its no surprise to me that their figures paint a different picture to those of Unicef.

It may come as a surprise to you, but UNICEF is a UN organization.

Sanctions have caused the deaths of more than 500,000 children in Iraq.

Actually, they have not. This is now the fourth time I have posted the following in this forum, but some of the newer members may not have seen it:

As UNICEF itself is scrupulously careful to point out in UNICEF: Questions and Answers for the Iraq child mortality surveys - BAGHDAD, 16 August 1999 (UNICEF) Survey Methodology/credibility --

"These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

UNICEF also said in the same report:

"A dramatic increase in bottle-feeding of infants has occurred in Iraq. Given the contribution of bottle-feeding to higher levels of malnutrition and child mortality, UNICEF is urging the Government to remove breastmilk substitutes from the rations and replace them with additional food for pregnant and lactating women. UNICEF has also called on the Government to promote exclusive breastfeeding of infants as a national policy."

Could you please explain for us the connection between Iraqi women following the worldwide trend of moving towards a more modern (albeit arguably less nutritious) method of child-rearing (bottle-feeding vs. breast-feeding) and the imposition of the United Nations sanctions? Could it be possible that the sanctions have nothing to do with it at all -- that ALL of the increase in infant mortality is instead due to the "dramatic increase in bottle-feeding"? For the record, I personally don't believe it IS entirely due to bottle-feeding, but as UNICEF themselves say, it is difficult to specifically attribute the death of a child to any single cause. Certainly UNICEF feels bottle-feeding is a serious enough factor in the increase in Iraq's infant mortality to emphasize in no uncertain terms their opposition to it.

Here's some more from the report:

"In the autonomous northern region, under-5 mortality rose from 80 deaths per 1000 live births in the period 1984-1989 to 90 deaths per 1000 live births during the years 1989-1994. The under-5 rate fell to 72 deaths per 1000 live births between 1994 and 1999. Infant mortality rates followed a similar pattern."

Now isn't that interesting! In the northern region of Iraq, where Hussein's control is weakest, the latest availale mortality rates are actually 10% lower than they were ten years earlier, before sanctions were imposed. What is the only possible conclusion we can draw from this? Why, it MUST be that the sanctions are actually SAVING CHILDREN'S LIVES!!!!! *sarcasm*

Seiously, though, what is the most likely explanation for this documented drop? Someone with less belief than I in Hussein's oft-demonstrated concern for his fellow man might say that in the autonomous north the humanitarian supplies are actually making it to those who need it, rather than being hijacked by Hussein's thugs to be resold at a profit through the black market.

Sound bites and carefully selected snippets are worse than useless when it comes to statistical analyses. The METHODOLOGY of the surveys must be considered, and ALL factors looked at, not just the ones which appear to support your personal agenda.

Besides, all of this is moot, because it is all Saddam's fault anyway. Have the sanctions made life more difficult for the Iraqi poor? Yep. Would the sanctions have been imposed if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait? Nope.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Phred]
    #1206924 - 01/10/03 12:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You have both raised interesting points and given me some more things to think about, and thanks for pointing out any mistakes I may have made along the way. However, I still maintain that the people of Iraq have been poorly treated by us in the way sanctions have been imposed. Obviously, Hussein has to shoulder a large part of the burden. Im just not comfortable with the way we turned a blind eye and even helped him commit some of the attrocities against his people untill such time as he was no longer of use to us. We are going in for the oil, that much is clear to me, we are not acting in the interests of the Iraqi people and they are suffering because of our desire. Sadly we are about to inflict even more suffering upon them. We are now only weeks away from beginning the inevitable assault on Iraq and as yet we have been provided with no credible evidence relating to WMD to justify this. Innocent children will die by the hands of those acting in our name.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1207992 - 01/10/03 09:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Pinky, I saw a documentary a few months back which was saying that more money was making it throught to Northern Iraq because it is the area of the country which supports Hussein least. Even the Iraqi doctors they interviewed there complained they were not able to obtain many harmless medicines that were under sanction.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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