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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2785666 -

CJay said:
Hitler was extending his empire in every direction - East, West, North, South - throughout Europe into Asia, Africa....open your eyes.
This guy wanted one thing. And he had the means and he was far more aggressive and dangerous than any dictator about today......yet the USA did nothing for 'freedom' during his ascension to power.
However you are keen as mustard to get into second rate dictator's nations, people who pose no valid threat to the USA or to Europe......
But people who have a lot of oil and a lot of poppies......



So, um, if a person is taking power in any nation around the world, and we don't like him, you are saying that it would be a good idea to just launch a pre emptive strike against them before they do anything wrong? WHy is it I have a hard time believing this is your true opinion?
Quote:
- To support the people and show solidarity in the international community before a mad dictator had had a chance to convince them the only way out of their hell-hole existence was to hand over their reason to him.



I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe time to put down the history book that talks of "ONE" mid-east led terrorist attack in the USA and pick up one just a weensy bit more accurate?
Quote:
So you get your history and values off black hawk down, not superman then. Sounds like you're as dumb as me. Well I guess that's the way US culture feeds it's big lines - via TV and Hollywood.



I was dumbing it down to your level. And whats wrong with superman?
Quote:
By the way I know Osama has not been caught - maybe you should read a book on rhetoric.



Maybe you should read a book on mental retardation. You were saying how Osama was responsible for the FIRST attack, which isn't true at all. He wasnt' responsible, nor has he been apprehended. HOwever, the person/s responsible for the first attack are currently being anally intruded 10x a day in a prison for the rest of their lives. So no matter how you cut it ,you are wrong.
Quote:
But thanks for qualifying - no he hasn't been caught. Instead he has been used as an excuse to terrorise a subcontinent, impinge on people's freedoms and generally throw aside reason.



Yea, those Afghan women that get to drive a car and not wear burkahs without being executed in the soccer stadiums rant and rave non-stop about their freedoms being impinged upon
Quote:
And back to the first WTC attempt, his name was certainly bandied about by the US government and the media.



Blowing up a truck in a building is as much an "attempt" at terrorism as a gang-bang is an "attempt" at losing your virginity. I don't think they did really talk about Osama for the first one, maybe you could show me a link or some sort of evidence? Although, if your source for this is the same source where their was only one attack, you might want to consider the fact that I won't accept it.
Quote:
Having a reactor isn't the only way to get nuclear warhead grade radioactive material......I mean you guys were pretty convinced saddam had his ways despite all those sanctions. I don't think it's too hard to get these things when you are pals with china and know a lot of the shady avenues of power in Asia. There's still a lot of the old soviet stuff floating around for starters.



The entire issue with N Korea recently began when they removed inspectors from their reactor. Sure they could "buy" It on the open market, but that would be like having 1 ton of compost, spores, a sterile lab, incubators and terrariums and hanging out in the ghetto looking to buy shrooms. Kinda unlikely, know what I mean?
Quote:
N.Korea isn't prewar Germany, but it's a hell of a lot closer than Iraq. The army is one of the most powerful in the world...and they have real WMD. And I think Kim likes the power game quite a lot, it's not just about the money.



How many nations has Kim invaded?
Quote:
- No how about - don't support him, don't sell arms and precursors to WMD to him. Anyway where are these nukes?



You honestly aren't saying that you don't think N Korea has nukes, are you? Maybe in the same world where Osama organized teh first (and nonexistant) attack on the WTC, and the second (really the first) one, that might be true. Read a book.
Quote:
DON'T SUPPORT HIM, DON'T USE UNPROVOKED MILITARY FORCE - it's quite simple



Funny how a few paragraphs above you were talking about how the USA should have stopped Hitlers rise to power. So, using your "No support", and "No unprovoked military force", how would we have stopepd Hitlers rise to power?
Quote:
Shame you can't us this massive power you brag about to ensure any food aid etc goes to civillians and the people who need it rather than handing it straight to the trusty dictators of the world. You seem to have enough power to do everything else you please.



I'd really have to refer you to black hawk down as just one teensy example of where we did just that. Would you think that using US military forces in a foreign, soverign nation to ensure that food went to the people would qualify as "use of force"? IF so, didn't you JUST SAY that you wouldn't support that?
Quote:
you don't have to cowtow to the UN, you could just try respecting it. The UN isn't a hitler-esque world domination body. When you join an organisation you have a certain responsibility to it, that is if your word counts for anything.



Hah. If "our" word counts for anything. I'd say that our "promise" to disarm Saddam and the UN's "commitment" to do show really demonstrates which of us means what they say.
Quote:
The UN was carrying out inspections, Saddam was impotised....The path of reason was being followed. Till the US government ran out of time to see through the only outcome it was considering. It couldn't be left for any truth or justice to fully emerge...the war had to be fought while the pretext was still strong.



Removing a man who kills innocent people isn't "true" or "just"? Do tell.
Quote:
Can't wait for the next history lesson germ!


No problem for me.

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2786931 -

Alex has been trying this ruse out for a while, let me make sure I got what you are saying. After the US sold saddam precursors (Which isn't true, you don't have a "precursor" for a living organism such as anthrax), and after we funded him to have WMD's, then how was it a lie to say that saddam had WMD's?

:gonzo:

No, we know he had the WMD we gave him them back in the 80's. But, are you sitting comfortably? IT'S WHETHER HE HAD THEM IN 2003.

No, only when I'm arguing with someone as unsophisticated and as juvenlie as you.

  :gonzo:

UN Resolution 641 . Read it and weep

I've read it. I didn't weep. Now it's time for you to read it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2786938 -

So, um, if a person is taking power in any nation around the world

If they conquer Europe, go ahead and invade. Don't try and compare that with invading Iraq.

Maybe you should read a book on mental retardation

Why, are you looking to offload some?

Yea, those Afghan women that get to drive a car and not wear burkahs without being executed in the soccer stadiums rant and rave non-stop about their freedoms being impinged upon

Do you know ANYTHING about the current situation for women in Afghanistan?

I'd say that our "promise" to disarm Saddam and the UN's "commitment" to do show really demonstrates which of us means what they say.

:gonzo:

Disarm him of what? Hate to break this to you, it doesn't like you've heard. THEY HAVN'T FOUND ANY WMD.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2786950 -

Actually, the US gave Iraq no WMDs, either in 1980 or at any other time. As you yourself have argued repeatedly in this forum, precursors and dual-use manufacturing equipment are not weapons of mass destruction. According to you, a barrel of sarin isn't a weapon of mass destruction either. Nor is a barrel of sarin sitting next to a row of empty artillery shells with a filling mechanism in between. To you, even an artillery shell filled with sarin is not a weapon of mass destruction -- you have posted here several times how the only real weapons of mass destruction are nuclear devices, and I've never seen you provide a source showing the US providing nuclear bombs to Iraq, so stop yammering on about how the US "sold" or "gave" or "provided" Iraq WMDs.

You can't have it both ways, Alex.

pinky


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2786960 -

My view is as the military experts and defence ministers have said - the only WMD are nuclear weapons. Unfortunately most of the right-wingers on the board arn't sophisticated enough to grasp that so to engage with them I have to accept their fantasies about what constitutes a WMD.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2786997 -

It's not just the right wingers, Alex -- it's the UN as well.

For decades "unconventional" weaponry was routinely referred to as "NBC" weaponry -- nuclear, biological, chemical. At some point in the last two decades, that term became supplanted by "weapons of mass destruction". The two terms are equivalent, however.

More to the point, the conditions of the conditional ceasefire signed by Iraq required verifiable proof of the destruction of Iraq's chemical, biological, and nuclear weaponry programs as well as existing stocks of same. Re-read the relevant resolutions and you will see that the specific terms "nuclear", "chemical", and "biological" are used throughout. The wording was never as imprecise as "weapons of mass destruction" -- it specified what needed to be destroyed and accounted for. Playing word games doesn't alter the facts.

Your position has always been that Iraq destroyed their NBCs and their NBC-making equipment and dismantled their NBC programs -- it's just that they did so in secret at some as-yet-undiscovered location(s) at some as-yet-unspecified time(s) with no record of it ever having occurred. You feel people who don't accept the (ex) Iraqi regime at their word about this are somehow imbeciles for doubting them: Those who are concerned there is no proof (or even evidence) of this secret destruction are somehow brainwashed; those who point out how easy it is to bury a few tractor-trailers full of gear just about anywhere are scare-mongering; those who figure the Iraqi yahoo who managed to get his hands on a binary sarin artillery shell to use as an IED might not have stumbled across the only one left in all Iraq are delusional.

You are free of course to hold these opinions. I leave it to the readers to decide who is being more brainwashed/naive/delusional here.

pinky


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2787091 -

Quote:
Actually, the US gave Iraq no WMDs, either in 1980 or at any other time.



Youd love that to be true wouldnt you Pinky?!

"Success was not difficult, The man in charge of licensing at the Commerce Department was Dennis Kloske, who, to speed up approvals for Iraq, cut the Pentagon out of the review process. Kloske simply did not want to deal with the Pentagon's pesky objections. In full knowledge that Iraq was developing missiles at a giant complex known as Saad-16, Commerce under Kloske approved millions of dollars worth of sensitive US electronics clearly marked for Saad-16. These products directly aided the Iraqi missile design and production effort. "

Source


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2787102 -

GazzBut said:
Quote:
Actually, the US gave Iraq no WMDs, either in 1980 or at any other time.



Youd love that to be true wouldnt you Pinky?!

"Success was not difficult, The man in charge of licensing at the Commerce Department was Dennis Kloske, who, to speed up approvals for Iraq, cut the Pentagon out of the review process. Kloske simply did not want to deal with the Pentagon's pesky objections. In full knowledge that Iraq was developing missiles at a giant complex known as Saad-16, Commerce under Kloske approved millions of dollars worth of sensitive US electronics clearly marked for Saad-16. These products directly aided the Iraqi missile design and production effort. "

Source


So if we are to go with the quote you provided.... it would seem that you are adding "sensitive electronics" to the list of WMD's.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2787138 -

These were electronics which were clearly destined for WMD programs.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2787140 -

GazzBut said:
These were electronics which were clearly destined for WMD programs.


pinky clearly and consisely stated.....
Actually, the US gave Iraq no WMDs, either in 1980 or at any other time.

Electronics, no matter what their use, are not WMD's.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2787192 -

Oh so its only morally corrupt if you sell the completed article but its ok to knowingly sell the components of wmd.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2787290 -

Your position

It's a little more than "my position". The WMD arn't in Iraq. No scientists or workers who have worked on them in years can be found. These are the facts we have to deal with. If we accept Iraq had a US supplied WMD program in the 80's then the WMD they produced are clearly long gone.

it's just that they did so in secret at some as-yet-undiscovered location(s) at some as-yet-unspecified time(s) with no record of it ever having occurred.

Except that it was done with the full knowledge of UN weapons inspectors, who said Iraq had been 98% disarmed - a higher disarmament figure than any other country.

those who point out how easy it is to bury a few tractor-trailers full of gear just about anywhere are scare-mongering;

You still don't get this do you pinky. It isn't about burying tractor-trailers. That was bullshit put out to fool the gullible. It's about hiding the heavy industrial plant, scientists and countless workers that must have been involved.

You are free of course to hold these opinions

Do you still believe there are WMD in Iraq and that we just havn't found them yet? Even David Kay - Bush's handpicked man - sent in to find the WMD says people who still hold your view are "really delusional".


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2787674 -

Please show me where I said it's OK. I'm merely pointing out that your reply to pinky's statement was way off.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/12/04 12:03 PM)

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789138 -

So if we are to go with the quote you provided.... it would seem that you are adding "sensitive electronics" to the list of WMD's.

Going by Hagbards other thread on this scrap metal is also a WMD.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789385 -

Quote:
Alex123 said:
So if we are to go with the quote you provided.... it would seem that you are adding "sensitive electronics" to the list of WMD's.

Going by Hagbards other thread on this scrap metal is also a WMD.


Except oh disingenuous non-comprehending one, Hagbard did not make such a claim The article states the material was being screened for radioactive residue. Whereas in THIS thread pinky stated we never sold WMD's to Iraq and Gazz posted a quote showing electronics were sold to Iraq in an attempt to prove pinky wrong.

So Hagbard did not attempt to add anything whereas Gazz certainly seems to have made the attempt.

No fruit in the UK? Must not be or you'd know the difference between an apple and an orange.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/13/04 04:06 AM)

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789426 -

Parts of WMD or complete WMDs its hardly a big difference is it..especially when you know full well that the equipment you are selling is to be used in a missile program. Perhaps you would care to give me you view on this kind of hypocrisy?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789429 -

The article states the material was being screened for radioactive residue.

:gonzo:

What is your point oh lying one?

Incidentally it actually says "the only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," Middle East Newsline reported.

"It's being exported," Perricos said after the briefing. "It's being traded out. And there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal."


Does your comprehension not enable you to understand that the scrap metal is being considered suspicious?

Whereas in THIS thread pinky stated we never sold WMD's to Iraq

Have you ever tried thinking for yourself? Try it someday.

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Snr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

http://www.rense.com/general29/wesold.htm

No fruit in the UK?

There's clearly at least one large fruit in the US..


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (06/13/04 05:44 AM)

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2789450 -

Fertilizer can be used as a bomb, does that mean if you sell fertilizer you've sold a bomb?

Didn't think so. Selling electronics is not selling WMD's.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789451 -

Quote:
What is your point oh lying one?


we've been over this before. Show a lie I've told.

You don't have the balls, brains, or ability for I don't lie.



Quote:
Does your comprehension not enable you to understand that the scrap metal is being considered suspicious? 


I have enough comprehension to know that suspicion and reality are two different thing. Too bad you don't.


Quote:
Have you ever tried thinking for yourself? Try it someday. 


:rotfl:
This from the guy who would drive a spiked steering wheeled car on the Britains 3/4's of the globe? While reading blatantly misleading web sites and swallowing their shit hook, line and sinker?


Quote:
There's clearly at least one large fruit in the US.


Gosh PinochhiAl, another homophobic slur?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789548 -

:gonzo:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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