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Offlinespacedragon
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Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace
    #2759574 - 06/03/04 04:57 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Hello,
I just wanted to quote a wonderful Zen Buddhist monk named Thich Nhat Hanh: ?The course America has chosen since 9/11 has not made the world safer or more peaceful. Only deep listening and gentle communication, he tells American leaders, can remove the wrong perceptions that are the foundation of violence.?

Many of the terrorists in the world are in government positions ? and they?re just so ignorant they don?t even know the harm they?re doing. Some actually DO know the harm they?re doing and can?t see the inter-being we experience as a global community & will certainly suffer greatly in the afterlife for their evil doings.

Thich Nhat Hanh goes on about the current situation in Iraq ?The only way for America to free itself from this situation is to help build the United Nations into a real body of peace so that the United Nations will take over the problem of Iraq and of the Middle East. America is powerful enough to make this happen. America should allow other nations to contribute positively to building the United Nations into a true organization for peace with enough authority to do it?s job. To me, that is the only way out of our current situation.?

The lessons I?ve received from this man are immeasurable & I recommend all his written works.

-Adam


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: spacedragon]
    #2759609 - 06/03/04 05:10 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So then, what do we do about the terrorists that are killing us? Let them be?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Redo]
    #2759642 - 06/03/04 05:35 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
So then, what do we do about the terrorists that are killing us? Let them be?



Convert them to Buddhist's.







Oh yeah.... and wave a magic wand.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2759752 - 06/03/04 07:25 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

There has only been one (allegedly middle-east) terrorist act in the USA - ever

The USA government has trained and condonned terrorists with a far greater frequency than that. Even good ole JFK sent terrorists into Cuba, starting the chain reaction that led to the Cuban missile crisis. And what is unprovoked invasion except for terror(ism) on the grandest scale.

Perhaps if the USA and other bullying intrusive Western governments just

stop

screwing with other countries and their economies. Perhaps if they went back on their age old policy in the middle east - which has been to provoke wars and supply weapons to the region seeing how much oil can be robbed in the meantime.(Classic divide and rule tactics).
Maybe terrorists would not then be created.

Who makes the terrorists? The governments of the UK, USA and other western powers with their heartless foreign policy.

I don't see terrorists from the middle east attacking any nations who haven't f**ked with their home nation(s)....I wonder why?

whisper words of wisdom - let it be, let it be........

If the USA and other so called 'developed' countries had traded fairly for middle east oil from the beginning, if they had not supplied crazy amounts of weapons, and if they had not supported cruel regimes - there would be no retalliation now.
The simplicity of it is astounding.


Wouldn't you agree that supplying arms to small time dictators is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane)
Wouldn't you say that supporting dictators until they decide you are not pulling their strings, then making them out to suddenly be a bad guy even though they are governing the same way they have done for years (with your support)is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane)
Wouldn't you say that attacking nations for the acts of small renegade groups of people is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane) I mean why not declare war on the nation Ireland because the IRA are holed up there? doh!

And why pick Saddam and Afganistan? I mean N.Korea brags about it's WMD, is run by a cruel dictator......oh but there's no oil there.....
and they have real WMD.......eeek!
All dictators are equal under the law - except Saddam. Strange that...

The UN was set up to stop wars like this happening, perhaps if the UN was respected and not used and abused by its most powerful member - wars like this wouldn't happen.

Everyone's scratching their heads wondering how to bring peace - what to do.

How about - stop

I mean 'mission accomplished' - a year ago - doh! Look at all the peace that has been brought to the region.

peace is peace - not war


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2759766 - 06/03/04 07:43 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

We learn by our mistakes CJay, and we dont train terrorists to bomb embasseys and blow up things. We like political revolutions to favor us :smile:. And alot of arms around the world are AK's, that isnt too American, I dont see them with m16's ever.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Redo]
    #2759803 - 06/03/04 08:18 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I understand that history is a process of evolution of opposing energies that cannot be avoided. The story is the story and we must live it as it is told. there's no avoiding that.
It's a pretty kool story anyhows. If harsh at times. What an adventure! The birth of mankind, a technological animal, as it happens.

I understand that all bodies have interests and act to protect them.
It's natural really, but a bit of lateral thinking, a paradigm shift; which is the only real solution, has an incredible amount of inertia to overcome.


However when one purports to have standards, yet one lives a doublestandard, well I think one leaves oneself up for criticism.

Sure that's just about all of us on some level or other.
But here we discuss, and so we discus.

It's unavoidable that we must act out this drama of life for the sake of the time-line.

But I haven't heard of many AK's going off on American soil - aimed at the establishment.

And there's a hell of a lot of M16's going off in other people's countries aimed at their establishments.

As for learning from mistakes - hmmmm, if that's been done, it's been done in a way I would never have conceived.

the story continues....


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2759820 - 06/03/04 08:29 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well, its kinda hard to get AK's through the boarders here (except Mexico maybe), and yes, we are at wartime, so our m16's do go off. And we are not aiming at their establishments =b.

Yea, truth is weirder then fiction still :laugh:


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OfflineHillBilly777
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2759893 - 06/03/04 09:34 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

  "There has only been one (allegedly middle-east) terrorist act in the USA - ever"




Cjay, first of all, get out of here with this "allegedly" crap.  There wasn't anyone named Bob Smith or Mary Jones involved in the attacks on the US on Sept. 11, 2001, but there was damn sure a Muhammad or two.  "Allegedly"... :rolleyes:  Secondly, there was a previous Islamist attack on the US, at the same building!  The only difference in the earlier attack and what resulted in the second one was a mere 50 feet; had that bomb-laden truck been fifty feet farther into the building, there would have been no WTC. 

Additionally, while those were the two most notable attacks IN the US, there have been a number of attacks ON the US overseas, notably: The USS Cole, a number of US Embassy bombings, the Iran hostage situation, the killing of Daniel Pearl, the beheading of Nick Berg, etc.  Militant islamists hate us because of who we are, not because we're mean ol' bullies, but because we are different, because we reject their way of life.  These people are fascists, plain and simple: they want a world in their image, or no world. 

Have you ever read the Hamas covenant? http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm  Here's an interesting quote from it: 
Quote:

':peace:  initiatives,  and  so-called  peaceful  solutions  and

international conferences are in contradiction to the  principles  of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the  infidels  as  arbitrators  in  the  lands  of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem  except  by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)





Last I checked we weren't installing Jews or Christians as permanent leaders over these areas, but Muslims.  Christ, look at the new president of Iraq!  If he's not a muslim, I'm not an American.  Anyways, isn't that a great one: peace initiatives contradict the Islamic Resistance Movement.  *shakes head*  There isn't much in there about the mean ol' infidels just letting them be, only conquest for the glory of Allah.  Maybe they're way off, but they DO claim to represent the ideals of most Islamofascist groups.  What irks me the most is that they give us two choices:  1) Convert  2)Die  There is no "leave us alone" in there, either convert or die, and you say stop?!?  Fuck that...you can have your prayer-rug, gimmie a gun.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: spacedragon]
    #2760284 - 06/03/04 12:09 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Yup. Deep listening and gentle communication are certainly working well for Buddhists in Thailand:

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=521599§ion=news

Thich Nhat Hanh may be a nice guy but his "solutions" ignore reality.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2760301 - 06/03/04 12:15 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

It's awful hard to imagine how they could have worse consequences than Bush's "solutions".

What "reality" was Bush addressing by invading Iraq?


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HillBilly777]
    #2760367 - 06/03/04 12:35 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

'1) Convert 2)Die There is no "leave us alone" in there,'

Sounds like GW's philosophy when approaching the selected regimes from the middle-east he opposes.

'look at the new president of Iraq! If he's not a muslim, I'm not an American'
Exactly - Both of you represent your societies from within your societies.
Saddam himself ran a remarkably secular society for the middle east, much to the dismay of many fundamentalists.

'Cjay, first of all, get out of here with this "allegedly" crap'
Sure I must say I share your feelings, however I have some doubts remaining, enhanced by the forcing of war and impotising of the UN. 'Middle east' is a sub-continent, that's a big arena when we are talking about a handful of terrorists. They are still a terrorist group, not a sub-continent, and should really be treated as such.
I just find it odd that the retaliation has been so poorly aimed, and so widely destructive when the intelligence was supposedly so good.

OK there was one other attempt to blow up the WTC - you got me there for sure. Once again by terrorists, not nation states, not subcontinents.

'the HAMAS,

is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the

territories under Israeli control.'
Got that off the link you sent through - note they describe themselves as 'an extremist fundamentalist' organisation. They are not the mainstream. I am sure extremist right wing organisations in the USA are equally as fascist. Also note they are in their eyes under the control of mean ol' infidels who will not let them be, because they have carved their homeland into a new country just half a century ago. The wound is pretty fresh.
I think terorist attacks are to be abhorred, but I can in some sense see why Palestinians in Israel feel so oppresed.

In response to Redo: 'Well, its kinda hard to get AK's through the boarders here (except Mexico maybe), and yes, we are at wartime, so our m16's do go off. And we are not aiming at their establishments =b'.
Sorry my grammar was poor, I should have used past tense really I suppose. Both the Afgan and Iraqi establishments were targetted with M16s and the like. Establishments which had as much right to exist as any other that has not been targetted. And I think we all know who Saddam used to buy the juiciest bit of his armoury off. The USA and UK are the world's largest arms exporters. Kinda weird thing to sell to people you don't trust, from a religion you don't trust.

At any rate, I agree that in this story we live out - of the world - the inevitable is the drama. Drama, as my old drama teacher used to tell me, is conflict. read any good book, watch any good play, teasing the best plot out of opposing energies is the essence of a good story.

Hence our situation - pretty dramatic! And one Hell of a story.

I know a stop will not be reached because it is not in the equation right now. This part of the story is far too dramatic. But to stop would stop all the pain.

There's no stoppin it - we're on the rollercoaster now! But that doesn't stop a wider frame of vision.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2760416 - 06/03/04 12:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yup. Deep listening and gentle communication are certainly working well for Buddhists in Thailand




yeah, that's what i was thinking, except i was thinking tibet---oh wait i mean China --Tibet doesn't exist anymore. :shake:

but all that shit about trying to put this situation into black and white terms, muslims trying to convert us, is just wrong.  youve listened too much to bush and his rhetoric, this situation is just not that simple.  osama himself talked about the u.s. presence in saudi arabia, not that there were not enough muslims and too many christians. and most importantly: where did they attack?  did they attack the vatican? a bunch of churches?  No, they attacked the buildings that symbolize our global economic dominance, the building that symbolizes our military dominance and supposedly were going to attack a building symbolizing our politics (white house or congress). <------ALL secular.


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InvisibleStein
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Tao]
    #2760489 - 06/03/04 01:18 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:

muslims trying to convert us, is just wrong.  youve listened too much to bush




When did Bush say Muslims were trying to convert us?  I might have missed that statement but a link to the quote would be great :smile:


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OfflineTao
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Stein]
    #2760506 - 06/03/04 01:24 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry, that was a bit unclear. I was referring to Hillbilly's
Quote:

What irks me the most is that they give us two choices: 1) Convert 2)Die There is no "leave us alone" in there, either convert or die




and by referring to bush, i meant the way he puts everything into simplistic black and white "they are a member of the axis of EVIL" "they hate our freedom" etc.


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InvisibleStein
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Tao]
    #2760523 - 06/03/04 01:27 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

My bad.


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OfflineHillBilly777
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2761465 - 06/03/04 11:02 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Cjay, I completely agree, it is terrorists doing this, not nation-states, but these terrorists all have one thing in common: fundamentalist Islam. This ties in with my response to Tao: Tell me Tao, if this conflict's roots are not in religion, then why is "Infidel" used to describe Americans in "Muslim" (religious word here) land? And why is Allah the first guy to be mentioned when these infidels die?(another non-secular idea here) Granted we also do use God often in reflecting on our successes, but couple that with thinking of your enemy as infidels, and you're talking about a VERY different mindset.

Again, Cjay, on hamas = extremist fundamentalist organization. I completely agree, Hamas does not = mainstream Islam, but I would certainly argue that they do fall close to the middle line of the fundamentalist/jihadist Islam that we're currently at war with. I challenge you to show me a fundamentalist group that is equally as "fascist" that uses the same means to push their agenda.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Redo]
    #2761534 - 06/03/04 11:19 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
So then, what do we do about the terrorists that are killing us? Let them be?




Remove all U.S. military presence from the Arabian peninsula and the Muslim world, halt military aid towards Israel, hand Iraq over to the U.N. and remove coalition from Iraq, discontinue the support for corrupt Muslim regimes.

This is a religious issue - and the ignorance of literalist Christian politicians in the United States in the last 70 years has created this bloody clash between Christians and Muslims for the first time since the crusades.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HillBilly777]
    #2761600 - 06/03/04 11:34 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"Infidel" was a word even used by the great Sufi Saint Maulana Jalal al-Din [RUMI] - it was a word used (by him and the Prophet Muhammad alike) to describe those outside the religious idea who reject God - by tongue and heart, and describe the infidelity of those who have turned their backs on the Beloved (God/Allah); just as someone who betrays the love of their spouse is also an "infidel", and well, guilty of infidelity. It's a God-is-Love thing. Today the word is somewhat of an isult in the context it's constantly used in.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761606 - 06/03/04 11:35 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Zahid, we went to war against Iraq over 10 years ago because they invaded one of our allies in Kuwait. That war technically never ended. We had a cessation of hostilities, and Sadaam Hussien agreed to disarm his weapons programs. He failed to comply with UN mandates and his own agreements. He gassed hundreds of thousands of his own people. He tried to assassinate a US President. We still didn't take the fucker out even after all that, which I think is amazing. Then 9-11 happened on American soil, and we had to put 3000 of our own people in the ground. I think that changed the way we look at things. Sadaam was an evil man, and he got what is coming to him. The UN wasn't about to do anything about it, and we did.

People look at D-Day 60 years later, and realize that what those brave men did changed the world. 60 years from now, Iraq will be one of the greatest nations in the world in my opinion. It is just a guess. I think their economy ranked around 200 before the war, which is not impressive. Someday they will break into the top 20, and it will be largely because of the United States of America had the guts to do what is right. They already have critical infrastructure and a literate people. They possess mineral wealth in their oil deposits that can spur the economy. All they are missing is freedom.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761651 - 06/03/04 11:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Which is why the United States needs to do something about the U.N. to improve and reform it.

I'm afraid 9/11 and Bush's wars have officially launched the second clashing of Christianity and Islam. Every Muslim and Christian I have met have been good and compassionate people as they learned from their faiths - politically though, one is at odds with the other to the point many support the 'military actions' of their 'armed leaders'; Muslims alike who support armed resistance in Iraq against Coalition soldiers and Christians alike who support the invasion of Iraq.

The War Against Terror has done nothing but enrage the Muslim world, which leads many Muslims to conclude it is a War Against Islam on a subconscious level among the minds of western politicians of Judea-Christian background.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761665 - 06/03/04 11:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

He gassed hundreds of thousands of his own people




thousands, not hundreds of thousands. it was horrible, but not quite that horrible

Quote:

Then 9-11 happened on American soil



were there mainly saudis or iraqis in that plane?

Quote:

They already have critical infrastructure and a literate people.



uhhh...i really do not think they had great infrastructure, and they certainly dont now after we bombed it all. we're working on running water and electricity right now.
and as for literate? they're 40% literate according to CIA factbook.

Quote:

Someday they will break into the top 20, and it will be largely because of the United States of America had the guts to do what is right.



now this i agree with, except for the part about 'because the usa had the guts' its because the usa taxpayers will foot the bill for an extensive new infrastructure and industry like we did with japan.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761690 - 06/03/04 11:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

That Muslim world doesn't have a free voice to speak with. Plenty of people in Iraq are not enraged at all, they are free. Those Kurds are as happy as pigs in shit compared to the days of Sadaam.

A free Iraq will tip the balance of power in the Arabic world. All free thinking intellectuals will migrate to the new haven that refuses to censor and lets them express their own views. The culture will be enhanced by leaps and bounds by this freedom, and it will eclipse every other Arabic nation combined.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761714 - 06/03/04 11:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Zahid:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/junior/note1.htm

Wow, theyve done alot havent they, those UN people are very forgiving of anything, looks like they solve problems much better then anybody else ever has.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2761719 - 06/04/04 12:01 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

You only hear the radical's view in the reports. Why report on the every day good now free people of Afganistand and Iraq, thats no fun now is it.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761727 - 06/04/04 12:03 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plenty of people in Iraq are not enraged at all, they are free.




Did Bill O'Reilly tell you that? All joking aside, I'm sure of course there are some Iraqis who are happy about this. But let's not kid ourselves here. I'm sure not being bombed is preferred over being bombed anyday by the average Iraqi. I also feel I must point out that in no way has it been proven that Iraq was involved in 9/11. If my memory serves me, the majority, if not all, of the terrorists on that plane were Saudi citizens. We would never go to war against the Saudis though, we have entirely too much money tied up with the Saudi royal family.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761735 - 06/04/04 12:06 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

A free Iraq will tip the balance of power in the Arabic world. All free thinking intellectuals will migrate to the new haven that refuses to censor and lets them express their own views. The culture will be enhanced by leaps and bounds by this freedom, and it will eclipse every other Arabic nation combined.




That may be, but you think we're actually heading in the right direction for a "free" Iraq? I think that definitely remains to be seen. Hell we're already running out of bullets. This war, whether you think it's justified or not, has been badly managed from the beginning. It's GWB playing in the sandbox with his GI Joe's with little to no regard for the human life being wasted.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761742 - 06/04/04 12:08 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

No one is defending Saddam Hussein here - al-Qaedists even consider him a munafiq (hypocrite) and an infidel. Saddam was secular; all over Iraq he posted giant portraits of himself prostrating on a prayer rug because in the Middle East, behind every political strife - it does involve people who follow the Islamic faith. Religion is the focus of this society. In Muslim/Arab countries there are traffic signs that simply state "God is Great". In such a culture - it is dangerous when ignorant foreigners are present in occupation. The precise reason "Muslims don't have a voice" is because of the corrupt regimes they live under that exist because they are U.S.-backed; thus giving the people no hope of changing their corrupt governments by way of force.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761758 - 06/04/04 12:11 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

In the midwestern United States, every so often there are billboards along the highways that proclaim "abortion is murder" and that I should "trust in jesus".


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: adrug]
    #2761765 - 06/04/04 12:14 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

adrug said:
In the midwestern United States, every so often there are billboards along the highways that proclaim "abortion is murder" and that I should "trust in jesus".




Paid-for advertisements by special interest groups are different than government issued traffic signs.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761769 - 06/04/04 12:14 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
No one is defending Saddam Hussein here - al-Qaedists even consider him a munafiq (hypocrite) and an infidel. Saddam was secular; all over Iraq he posted giant portraits of himself prostrating on a prayer rug because in the Middle East, behind every political strife - it does involve people who follow the Islamic faith. Religion is the focus of this society. In Muslim/Arab countries there are traffic signs that simply state "God is Great". In such a culture - it is dangerous when ignorant foreigners are present in occupation.




It's this difference of culture that I think the Bush administration fails to grasp, or perhaps just ignores. I don't like to quote pop-media too much but I'm reminded of the line from the trailer of the Chronicles of Riddick, "Convert now or fall forever". Bush's version is the "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists". It's the glaringly ignorant hubris of this administration that the rest of the world wants to be just like the U.S. that I think is the biggest threat to peace. Look at Turkey, they are basically forced to remain a secular state by the incumbants, mainly to appease the world at large I suppose. But given the opportunity the people there would vote in a theocracy.

I think Bush and friends need to take a religious awareness class.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761782 - 06/04/04 12:16 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Quote:

adrug said:
In the midwestern United States, every so often there are billboards along the highways that proclaim "abortion is murder" and that I should "trust in jesus".




Paid-for advertisements by special interest groups are different than government issued traffic signs.




Very much a difference. One is an exercise in freedom of speech, the other is institutionalised religion, a pretty exlusive and intolerant one at that. And I don't necessarily mean Islam.

:shocked:


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2761901 - 06/04/04 12:56 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Institutionalised religion, yes - but like I said, it is cultural - the states that enforce aspects of Islamic Law are more or less puppet regimes and that hardly represent anything of their people. Which is why Saddam made portraits of himself praying when he himself does not even believe in God - to ease the pressure from an entire culture that expands accross a large portion of the planet that puts its trust in Religion as the sole guidance for daily life. Whether it's in scenario with religious fanatics or some family trying to get ends meet, in this culture Shariah Law is what people regard greater than themselves. Approaching the entire culture with the mentality that "it's all fundamentalist foos'ha, lets bring them freedom!" is dangerous. Iraqis are happy Saddam is gone - even the insurgents and the religionists that support them are happy about Saddam's removal. Before the coalition forces came, not a flying chance in hell could Muqtada al-Sadr form his own cladestine army of highly religious Shia Muslims.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761911 - 06/04/04 01:02 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well my point about the religion of Islam and how it relates to government is that the very fundamental basis of Islam is contained within the meaning of the word(s). Islam translates to "submission" (among other things) and Moslem translates to "submitter" (again, among other things). This submission is to God, directly from the individual. In practical application of the religion though it is usually mediated socially through the government. This is why theocracies are so often found in Islamic countries. It's not right or wrong, it's just different from how the U.S. does it. Unfortunately the exclusive nature of both Islam and Christianity essentially preclude any real tolerance, especially from the extremists on both sides.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2761964 - 06/04/04 01:25 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Indeed - reform in the Muslim world will include democracy and Shariah Law - and these governments will represent the people. In fact, most fanatics don't realize that with a democratic Islamic state, problems such as Chechnya, Falasteen, and Kashmir may be dealt with more accordingly.


Edited by Zahid (06/04/04 03:27 AM)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2761988 - 06/04/04 01:35 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It's not right or wrong, it's just different from how the U.S. does it.




I disagree.
I think separation between church and state = k3y. Same way that I think government should be ruled by the people democratically and citizens should be given basic civil rights (speech, thought, religion, etc) .


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Tao]
    #2761999 - 06/04/04 01:40 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

It's not right or wrong, it's just different from how the U.S. does it.




I disagree.
I think separation between church and state = k3y. Same way that I think government should be ruled by the people democratically and citizens should be given basic civil rights (speech, thought, religion, etc) .




*shrug* I really don't think it's the right or the duty of the U.S. (or any other country) to dictate how another is run, in regards to it's form of government as long as the people aren't unduly oppressed. If they can work a functioning theocracy I'd be happy for them. I will say however that when religion enters into it the odds of power-mongering and abuse rise. There are tons of tribal communities throughout the world though that are essentially theocracies and they often function just fine. We don't need to go in and tell them that's wrong, not if it works for them.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2762036 - 06/04/04 01:54 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2762169 - 06/04/04 03:12 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Freedom of religion is a very positive step, but seperation of religion and government makes not a big difference in many other cultures.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2762197 - 06/04/04 03:33 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I really don't think it's the right or the duty of the U.S. (or any other country) to dictate how another is run




I agree.

Quote:

when religion enters into it the odds of power-mongering and abuse rise.



Thats partly my point. But also, to quote the movie Dogma, "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier." If the laws supposedly come from God, they are much more inflexible to change than if they come from the opinions and views of the current society.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HillBilly777]
    #2762387 - 06/04/04 06:55 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Ok -
- well everyone knows where the KKK stand.....

- and how about the WAR group, admittedly not religious fanatics, to them racial bloodline is the key, not religion, but their standpoint is equally vicious.
'August 1, 2002: Tom Metzger continues to promote lone-wolf and small-cell activism. He believes there lesson to be learned from Palestinian terrorists..."Moslems are no less an enemy than the Jews." On the other hand, Metzger also wrote in April 2002, "Their [sic] is a lesson to be learned from the Palestinians. Do not ignore it. Freedom Fighting works." '

He seems to have a penchant for the approach of hamas type fundamentalists.....

'He has been widely acknowledged as the principal mentor of the neo-Nazi skinhead movement since its appearance in America during the mid-1980s; in this connection, he attracted nationwide publicity in 1990, when an Oregon jury rendered a $12.5 million judgment against him and his son, John, for inciting the murder of an Ethiopian immigrant by skinheads.'

Sure he doesn't call Allah or God when someone from another race is killed, he just hoolers and whoops and cracks open some beer - as equally convinced at his superiority as any hamas member, or any elitist-extremist-fundamentalist anywhere.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2762452 - 06/04/04 08:38 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Thats a police matter, and they arent blowing up our buildings.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2762879 - 06/04/04 12:35 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
A free Iraq will tip the balance of power in the Arabic world. All free thinking intellectuals will migrate to the new haven that refuses to censor and lets them express their own views. The culture will be enhanced by leaps and bounds by this freedom, and it will eclipse every other Arabic nation combined.



The Iraqis have to actually want that kind of country in order to achieve it. I see little evidence to indicate that they do.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Redo]
    #2763264 - 06/04/04 02:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

My point was that extreme fundamentalist type people exist all over. Not just in the middle east. And that much like in the USA, extreme fundamentalist groups around the world are in the extreme minority.

All these extremes make them rather dangerous and insane wherever they are and whatever their cause.
Which is the obvious problem.
However one must retain some logic amidst the emotional turmoil and encroaching paranoia - remembering to see them as this small, vicious group. And remembering that this is what must be dealt with, a small group not a world full of people just trying to earn a crust.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2764184 - 06/04/04 06:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
There has only been one (allegedly middle-east) terrorist act in the USA - ever




Hm, I seem to remember a U-Haul filled with TNT under the World Trade Center a few years ago, and six islamic extremists getting life sentances for it. I also seem to remember 9/11. Which "one" of those two are you referring to?
Quote:


The USA government has trained and condonned terrorists with a far greater frequency than that. Even good ole JFK sent terrorists into Cuba, starting the chain reaction that led to the Cuban missile crisis. And what is unprovoked invasion except for terror(ism) on the grandest scale.




No, an unprovoked invasion isn't terrorism. It is an act of war. Don't abuse that blanket word of "terrorism" that gets thrown around all the time today.
Quote:


Perhaps if the USA and other bullying intrusive Western governments just stop screwing with other countries and their economies




No more foreign aide? No more supporting red cross troops in areas where the local warlords are killing them? Fine with me.
Quote:


Perhaps if they went back on their age old policy in the middle east - which has been to provoke wars and supply weapons to the region seeing how much oil can be robbed in the meantime.(Classic divide and rule tactics).




"age old"? it can't possibly be more than 60 years old. Do I need to educate you on the history of that region?
Quote:


Maybe terrorists would not then be created.




Gee, it's nice to know that at the end of the day, it's still all the US's fault.
Quote:


Who makes the terrorists? The governments of the UK, USA and other western powers with their heartless foreign policy.




Interesting concept. Why then, pray tell, aren't their terrorists from the South American states that we have such a "heartless" foreign policy with? Could it be because they don't follow a extremist religion with leaders who encourage their behavior? Of course not, it's the US's fault!
Quote:


I don't see terrorists from the middle east attacking any nations who
haven't f**ked with their home nation(s)....I wonder why?




Because you are too ignorant to read newspapers? What did Bali do to the middle east?
Quote:


whisper words of wisdom - let it be, let it be........




Your ignorance? I won't "let it be".
Quote:


If the USA and other so called 'developed' countries had traded fairly for middle east oil from the beginning, if they had not supplied crazy amounts of weapons, and if they had not supported cruel regimes - there would be no retalliation now.




How could we have traded fairly and not supported the cruel regiems? The regime in Saudi Arabia falls into my definition of "cruel", how aren't we being fair in our trade with them, and how should we modify that so we aern't supporting them? Should we lead a war into the area? Somehow I don't think you'll be supporting that. Should we have the CIA use their power to train insurgents in the area? Nope, you don't want that either. how about we just wave the magic wand o' liberals and make it all better, and hte USA could just disappear?
Quote:


The simplicity of it is astounding.




If by "it" you mean "my brain", then yes, it's astounding.
Quote:


Wouldn't you agree that supplying arms to small time dictators is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane)




Geez, I thought you meant Israel until you got to this point. What Arab nations are we supplying with weapons? What are you on?
Quote:


Wouldn't you say that supporting dictators until they decide you are not pulling their strings, then making them out to suddenly be a bad guy even though they are governing the same way they have done for years (with your support)is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane)




What option would you have? Stop our "un fair trade" with the arab nations that we are oppressing, supporting, and arming, and stop arming Israel? You have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps OTD would be a great place to hang out ?
Quote:


Wouldn't you say that attacking nations for the acts of small renegade groups of people is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane)



Not if the leaders of the nation support them. Wouldn't you say that watching an area like Afghanistan exist with their huge human rights "issues" is morally lacking? Watching women getting executed for not wearing their burkahs and saying "well golly, thats fine with us, we'll just stop our unfair trade practises and things will work out fine" is pretty insane?
Quote:


I mean why not declare war on the nation Ireland because the IRA are holed up there? doh!




Because the leadership of Ireland isn't supporting and condoning their actions. "doh".
Quote:


And why pick Saddam and Afganistan? I mean N.Korea brags about it's WMD, is run by a cruel dictator......oh but there's no oil there.....
and they have real WMD.......eeek!




Ok fine, we'll make you happy. We'll go to war with North Korea.
Quote:


All dictators are equal under the law - except Saddam. Strange that...




No other dictators in the region have signed cease fire agreements saying that they wouldn't do certain things. And you'll recall that the evil US/Zionists didn't invade Kuwait and start the whole fucking affair.
Quote:


The UN was set up to stop wars like this happening, perhaps if the UN was respected and not used and abused by its most powerful member - wars like this wouldn't happen.




We owe nothing to the UN. If htey don't like what we are doing, we'll resign our positions in the UN and let them do what they want.
Quote:


Everyone's scratching their heads wondering how to bring peace - what to do.




Everyone but you, with your lack of knowledge of the middle east, it's history and the causes of terrorism. Oh, and your lack of a terrorist attack thath appened less than 15 years ago. You sure are shining brightly, little star!
Quote:


I mean 'mission accomplished' - a year ago - doh! Look at all the peace that has been brought to the region.




Ok, compare current Iraq with pre-war Iraq. How many bloodthirsty dictators are in charge now? Don't most of the Iraqi's support the war? Geez, I can't beleive I spent this much time with someone who thinks that their was only "one" mid-east terror attack on the USA.
peace is peace - not war




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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2764194 - 06/04/04 06:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
I'm afraid 9/11 and Bush's wars have officially launched the second clashing of Christianity and Islam.




Lets hope so, we remember how those wars turn out :smile:
Quote:


The War Against Terror has done nothing but enrage the Muslim world, which leads many Muslims to conclude it is a War Against Islam on a subconscious level among the minds of western politicians of Judea-Christian background.



Do you have any actual evidence that the arab world hates us more now thanthey did? ANd if their previous level of hatred was such that it made them cheer in the streets after they saw pictures of 9/11, wasn't that pretty friggin bad to start out with?


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2764252 - 06/04/04 07:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah you are right I missed the other terrorist attempt off my first post. Apologies.

I am not saying it is all the USA's fault, I am saying that part of the responsibility lies with the USA government. Responsibility which seems to have been thrown aside. Yes leave the UN, do as you please, but then why join in the first place? I suppose it's like the land signed over to the native americans...not a fixed agreement.

The government seems to be quite happily supporting a Hell of a lot of cruel regimes with all that aid you speak of.

And please for god's sake don't go to war with N Korea - I say what I say not because I want that. I say it as a comparison, to show the bias of decisions made over alleged WMD.

Terrorists are terrorists from the victim establishment's point of view whether they use machine guns, bombs, knives, planes, or whatever. It is their cell structure and attack on the establishment that defines them.

peace is peace - not war


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2765451 - 06/05/04 05:23 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hm, I seem to remember a U-Haul filled with TNT under the World Trade Center a few years ago, and six islamic extremists getting life sentances for it. I also seem to remember 9/11. Which "one" of those two are you referring to?





And many, many more people from the middle east have died at the hands of the west. Terrorism just the same.

Quote:

No, an unprovoked invasion isn't terrorism. It is an act of war. Don't abuse that blanket word of "terrorism" that gets thrown around all the time today.





Neat semantic gymnastics but all adds up to the same thing - innocent people get dead. Do you think they experience terror in their final moments? Do you think those who survive learn to live with a sense of terror? Just because we dont call our actions terrorism doesnt make them anymore acceptable.

Quote:

No more foreign aide? No more supporting red cross troops in areas where the local warlords are killing them? Fine with me.





Giving aid is not the same as interfering with sovereign states and turning a blind eye to human rights attrocities in countries who are, for the moment, considered western friendly.
Its not really a subtle distinction either, im surprised it needs to be pointed out to you.

Quote:

"age old"? it can't possibly be more than 60 years old. Do I need to educate you on the history of that region?




Dont bother you obviously dont know what you are talking about. Western policy to interfere in the middle east goes back at least 150 years.

Quote:

Because you are too ignorant to read newspapers? What did Bali do to the middle east?




They attacked an area populated mainly by westerners as you well know.

Quote:

Geez, I thought you meant Israel until you got to this point. What Arab nations are we supplying with weapons? What are you on?





Wake up dopey. The arms industry in the west has no qualms about who it will supply arms to.

Quote:

Not if the leaders of the nation support them. Wouldn't you say that watching an area like Afghanistan exist with their huge human rights "issues" is morally lacking? Watching women getting executed for not wearing their burkahs and saying "well golly, thats fine with us, we'll just stop our unfair trade practises and things will work out fine" is pretty insane?





Do you know something it makes me almost physically sick to hear this arguement trotted out time and time again. The US did not invade Afghanistan to help the women or because of human rights issues. They may have highlighted these areas to help justify the war to simple folk like yourself who are unable/unwilling to see the bigger picture but GWB was not motivated by the plight of the people of Afghanistan or Iraq for that matter.

Quote:

No other dictators in the region have signed cease fire agreements saying that they wouldn't do certain things. And you'll recall that the evil US/Zionists didn't invade Kuwait and start the whole fucking affair.




No but April Gillespie, US Ambassador, gave the Iraqi's the green light when she told them the US were not interested in Arab-Arab conflicts. Classic manipulation.
As for the ceasfire agreement can you tell me exactly how Saddam actually violated it?

Quote:

We owe nothing to the UN. If htey don't like what we are doing, we'll resign our positions in the UN and let them do what they want.





Yeah right. Dream on.

Quote:

Ok, compare current Iraq with pre-war Iraq. How many bloodthirsty dictators are in charge now? Don't most of the Iraqi's support the war?




Just because many Iraqi's supported Saddams removal does not mean they support the way it has been done or the way it is currently being handled. The situation will not become clear for a couple of years yet. Fortunately, I think the US will find it increasingly hard to exert the kind of influence they would have liked due to their complete incompetence in handling the situation.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2765612 - 06/05/04 08:28 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

War is terrorism writ large and in bold type, embossed and given a hardbacked volume.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2765744 - 06/05/04 10:46 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I like Peter Ustinov's line "Terrorism is the war of the poor. War is the terrorism of the rich".


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: CJay]
    #2766340 - 06/05/04 04:00 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
I am not saying it is all the USA's fault, I am saying that part of the responsibility lies with the USA government. Responsibility which seems to have been thrown aside. Yes leave the UN, do as you please, but then why join in the first place? I suppose it's like the land signed over to the native americans...not a fixed agreement.




We have no legal obligation to be in the United Nations. It is a group that you join voluntarily and they have to accept your application. With China being on the Human Rights Committe, their standards must not be to high. Look at every "UN Action" across the globe, most of the troops and money are US. We play a much broader role than other nations, then the UN turns on us.
Quote:


The government seems to be quite happily supporting a Hell of a lot of cruel regimes with all that aid you speak of.




I realize that. However, it might be better to support Cruel Regime X that is pretty bad, rather than letting Cruel Coup Y take over and try to gas 90% of the people in the nation. Do you think we should suddenly stop supporting these nations? If we do, wouldn't that region take a bigger hit than with us supporting them? Would you authorize or condone force used upon these nations to take out their "cruel regimes"?
Quote:


And please for god's sake don't go to war with N Korea - I say what I say not because I want that. I say it as a comparison, to show the bias of decisions made over alleged WMD.




We know that N Korea has WMD's. We also know that the best way to deal with N Korea, as shown through years of interaction, is to realize that their main goal isn't to destroy people, but to make money. If we make it more profitable for their leaders to not be making nukes than to be making them, they'll stop. This is a great example of what I was talking about before hand. Kim Jong Il is a scumbag leading a "cruel regime" that has WMD's. His main goal though, really, isn't the destruction of a few nations or the USA, it's his and his other cohorts financial solvency. We can pay him, in money or in trade agreements, so that he'll just not make nukes. If we did something to depose him, a true US hater could come into power and try to sell those nukes to Al Queda or the PLO. It's better sometimes to let the worst of the situtations ride and deal with them. No?
Quote:


Terrorists are terrorists from the victim establishment's point of view whether they use machine guns, bombs, knives, planes, or whatever. It is their cell structure and attack on the establishment that defines them.




I guess you were posting this in reply to my commentary about a nation invading another being an act of terrorism. You just proved my side of it. Uniformed soldiers of a soverign nation attacking another soverign nation aren't terrorists, by even your own definition.

Peace isn't the capitulation of "good" to "evil". Peace sometimes takes the form of war, as odd as that may sound. Do you think that the forces led by Eisenhower were bent on peace, or war?

If you don't know who Eisenhower is/was, he was the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Dub Dub Two. That was a war we fought. Years ago. Against the Nazis and such.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2768246 - 06/06/04 05:14 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I agree the UN has become fairly ineffective but that is not helped by the US declaring it worthless when it doesnt agree with US policy and then suddenly deciding it is relevant when it needs international recognition to try and gain support and assistance in Iraq.
Also, however much money the US puts in, why should it expect the UN to agree with everything it suggests? You dont buy UN mandates you know.

Quote:

I realize that. However, it might be better to support Cruel Regime X that is pretty bad, rather than letting Cruel Coup Y take over and try to gas 90% of the people in the nation.




Please show where this situation actually exists otherwise you are just making stuff up to try and defend your point of view.

Quote:

His main goal though, really, isn't the destruction of a few nations or the USA, it's his and his other cohorts financial solvency.




Can you provide me a source for this assertion or is it another flight of fantasy? How was Saddam's main goal ever the destruction of a few nations or the USA? The policy of paying Saddam off worked quite well in the 80's didnt it? He was never a threat to the US.

Quote:

Peace isn't the capitulation of "good" to "evil". Peace sometimes takes the form of war, as odd as that may sound. Do you think that the forces led by Eisenhower were bent on peace, or war?





not the WWII comparison again please! You cannot compare the Nazi's with Saddam. Bush tried this just the other day and Chirac (thats the french president to you) soon put him right on that score.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2768316 - 06/06/04 07:23 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

We have no legal obligation to be in the United Nations

If that's true then Iraq had no legal obligation to oblige by UN resolutions.

We play a much broader role than other nations, then the UN turns on us.

No, they just don't want Bush launching illegal wars of aggression on the basis of lies. To me, that sounds fair enough.

However, it might be better to support Cruel Regime X that is pretty bad, rather than letting Cruel Coup Y take over and try to gas 90% of the people in the nation.

What is this horseshit? How the fuck do you gas "90%" of the people in the nation?

Do you think we should suddenly stop supporting these nations?

If by "supporting" you mean propping up a maniacal brutal dictator then YES. STOP IT NOW.

If we do, wouldn't that region take a bigger hit than with us supporting them?

No, simply plough all the money you were giving to the brutal dictator and western corporations and put it into improving the health of the people living there.

Look at Afghanistan - the nightmarish warlords of the Northern Alliance made a fortune from Bush's support. What did the people of Afghanistasn get?

We also know that the best way to deal with N Korea, as shown through years of interaction, is to realize that their main goal isn't to destroy people, but to make money

Earth calling germ, earth calling germ. Are you receiving?

Uniformed soldiers of a soverign nation attacking another soverign nation aren't terrorists

Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Do you think that the forces led by Eisenhower were bent on peace, or war?

Problem with this horseshit is Hitler had invaded most of Europe. Who had Saddam invaded in the last 14 years?


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Xlea321]
    #2768396 - 06/06/04 09:32 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:

Problem with this horseshit is Hitler had invaded most of Europe. Who had Saddam invaded in the last 14 years?




Tens of thousands of his own people, tortured and killed.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2768793 - 06/06/04 01:40 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Thats not what Alex asked though is it? Try again.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2769213 - 06/06/04 04:39 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
And many, many more people from the middle east have died at the hands of the west. Terrorism just the same.




No, it really isn't. If it's done by policy, it simply doesn't fit the definition of the word terrorism. Again, please refrain from using loaded words just to sound educated. And how have they died at the "hands of the west"? Could you show some examples of state-supported actions against Middle Eastern people that lead to death of non-combatants? Would you say that "Many, many more people from the middle east have died at the hands of their own dictators" would be true, or not true? Are those actions worthy of you dropping the "t bomb"?
Quote:


Neat semantic gymnastics but all adds up to the same thing - innocent people get dead.




So drunk drivers are terrorists now too? Neat-o.
Quote:


Giving aid is not the same as interfering with sovereign states and turning a blind eye to human rights attrocities in countries who are, for the moment, considered western friendly.




I recall SilverSoul7 posting a list of "why countries hate us" or some such nonsense aw hile ago. Should we say "OK Africa, no more money from us since you are all ruthless dictators" and allow hundreds of thousands of people tos tarve to death again?
Quote:


Its not really a subtle distinction either, im surprised it needs to be pointed out to you.




Well, I'm quite stupid and simple. do point them out, oh do!
Quote:


Dont bother you obviously dont know what you are talking about. Western policy to interfere in the middle east goes back at least 150 years.




How did we interefere in the Ottoman Turkish empire in a way that adversly affected them? Other than the Brits after they kicked their ass in the big Dub Db.
Quote:


They attacked an area populated mainly by westerners as you well know.




I know that, you know that, but the way he said it excluded these attacks. If I went into a jewish neighborhood in NYC and blew up a truck bomb, am I attacking Israel?
Quote:


Wake up dopey. The arms industry in the west has no qualms about who it will supply arms to.




Could you provide such a simpleton as me with something like "proof"?
Quote:


Do you know something it makes me almost physically sick to hear this arguement trotted out time and time again.




(watch the flames, germin8tionn8ion...you've alread been warned by the other mods! -- trendal)
Quote:


The US did not invade Afghanistan to help the women or because of human rights issues. They may have highlighted these areas to help justify the war to simple folk like yourself who are unable/unwilling to see the bigger picture but GWB was not motivated by the plight of the people of Afghanistan or Iraq for that matter.




Interesting that you'd use the phrase "bigger picture", and then only look at the actions of one person. Did we invade Afghanistan to help their people out? Of course not. Is it a pleasant side effect? Yes.
Quote:


No but April Gillespie, US Ambassador, gave the Iraqi's the green light when she told them the US were not interested in Arab-Arab conflicts. Classic manipulation.




can she play a trombone? Cause Dizzy sure could... man...
Quote:


As for the ceasfire agreement can you tell me exactly how Saddam actually violated it?




Since you apparently can't read, I doubt I can. He said "If you stop beating me like a bad dog, I'll let you do X Y and Z" and then he said "Ok, No more X Y and Z". Pretty hard to understand, I know.


Edited by trendal (06/06/04 06:16 PM)


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: GazzBut]
    #2769226 - 06/06/04 04:45 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I agree the UN has become fairly ineffective but that is not helped by the US declaring it worthless when it doesnt agree with US policy and then suddenly deciding it is relevant when it needs international recognition to try and gain support and assistance in Iraq.
Also, however much money the US puts in, why should it expect the UN to agree with everything it suggests? You dont buy UN mandates you know.




If the UN doesn't agree, thats fine. Look at the percentages of forces in Gulf War I that were US forces. Over 80% of them I'm sure I Remember hearing. The next time that the UN decides "they" need something, we can just tell them that it doesn't fit our interest, and we can let China and the Congo help them out. It's just that simple. Being the only superpower on the block gives us alot of, well, power.
Quote:


Please show where this situation actually exists otherwise you are just making stuff up to try and defend your point of view.




"South America" has about 40 examples down there. How about "Iran" or "Iraq" or "pick-up-a-fucking-book-istan"
Quote:


Can you provide me a source for this assertion or is it another flight of fantasy? How was Saddam's main goal ever the destruction of a few nations or the USA? The policy of paying Saddam off worked quite well in the 80's didnt it? He was never a threat to the US.




An interesting note about the english language can be found in the MLB manual under the heading "contractions". You'll see that I used the word "isn't" which is kind of a tricky one. It looks a lot like the word is, with a few typo's after it and a tricky little floaty thing hangning about. However, hark! that is a CONTRACTION for "Is not". Try reading it again with that little bit of knowledge and I think you'll be getting your gold star for the day!
Quote:


not the WWII comparison again please! You cannot compare the Nazi's with Saddam. Bush tried this just the other day and Chirac (thats the french president to you) soon put him right on that score.



Hah, geez, people compare Bush to Hitler every day. The French didn't see much fo the Nazi's, hiding in their bedrooms as they marched through town, did they?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2769325 - 06/06/04 05:10 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

No, it really isn't. If it's done by policy, it simply doesn't fit the definition of the word terrorism.




Most terrorist groups have their own policies. Does this mean you would no longer view them as terrorists?

Quote:

So drunk drivers are terrorists now too? Neat-o.




How tedious.

Quote:

I recall SilverSoul7 posting a list of "why countries hate us" or some such nonsense aw hile ago. Should we say "OK Africa, no more money from us since you are all ruthless dictators" and allow hundreds of thousands of people tos tarve to death again?




Sorry I dont really see what your point is here. I said that giving aid and interfering/invading sovereign states are two different things.

Quote:

Well, I'm quite stupid and simple. do point them out, oh do!




Giving aid is passively trying to help a country or its people. Interfering/invading is actively trying to further our own agenda, sometimes under the guise of trying to help. Told you it was simple didnt I?

Quote:

Could you provide such a simpleton as me with something like "proof"?




Next you will be asking for proof that the earth is round. The fact that your own country sold precursors for WMD to Iraq in the 80's should be a fairly big clue though. Guess who lent the Iraqis the money to buy it...

Quote:

can she play a trombone? Cause Dizzy sure could... man...




Very low quality joke.Do you always do that when the truths a little uncomfortable for you?

Quote:

Since you apparently can't read, I doubt I can. He said "If you stop beating me like a bad dog, I'll let you do X Y and Z" and then he said "Ok, No more X Y and Z". Pretty hard to understand, I know.





Utter gibberish. You dont really know what you are talking about do you? Just spouting off your dumb old daddy's opinions I should imagine, with a touch of Fox news thrown in to make you feel inter-lek-chal.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2769355 - 06/06/04 05:20 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"South America" has about 40 examples down there. How about "Iran" or "Iraq" or "pick-up-a-fucking-book-istan"




Just one example will do where you believe the US is supporting a dictatorship simply because the alternative is so bad that 90% of the population would be gassed. As a precaution, I wont hold my breath while I wait for a sensible answer.

Quote:

An interesting note about the english language can be found in the MLB manual under the heading "contractions". You'll see that I used the word "isn't" which is kind of a tricky one. It looks a lot like the word is, with a few typo's after it and a tricky little floaty thing hangning about. However, hark! that is a CONTRACTION for "Is not". Try reading it again with that little bit of knowledge and I think you'll be getting your gold star for the day!





You were explaining why the US doesnt invade some countries and does invade others. You said we can cut a financial deal with N.Koreas because their leader "isn't" interested in destroying nations etc. It seems fairly obvious that you are implying we had to invade Iraq as the opposite was true. Man you dont even understand what your wild rantings mean, how is anyone else supposed to?


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: GazzBut]
    #2770024 - 06/06/04 09:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Thats not what Alex asked though is it? Try again.




Im sorry, I guess that torturing and slaughtering tens of thousands of people is not really an invasion, sorry.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2770599 - 06/07/04 01:59 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Im sorry, I guess that torturing and slaughtering tens of thousands of people is not really an invasion, sorry.

What evidence do you have he was "torturing and slaughtering tens of thousands of people?" There was the US approved putdown of the rebellions post 1991 when the US allowed Saddam to abuse the no-fly zone and use helicopter gunships, but in the last 12 years what rebellion has there been? Certainly the vast bulk of the mass graves that have been found are from the 80's when Saddam was so close to Bush and Reagan it was dubbed "the love affair".


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2770606 - 06/07/04 02:02 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Do you always do that when the truths a little uncomfortable for you?

Either that or run and write a pissy rating  :smirk:


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2770725 - 06/07/04 03:35 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Does "State-sponsored" terrorism mean anything to you?


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2770890 - 06/07/04 07:33 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

when you look at an invading army, if that isn't a complete organism made up of cell structures attacking an opposing establishment - then I don't know what it is. It is terrorism on a grand scale when launched as an unprovoked action.

Back to my falling down point on my first post of only mentioning one terrorist attack by the middle east rather than 2. Corect me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the arch purpetrator of both said to be Osama bin Laden? And has he been brought to justice?
However, have entire nations and swathes of innocents paid in blood?

germin8tion8ionn: 'Look at every "UN Action" across the globe, most of the troops and money are US. We play a much broader role than other nations, then the UN turns on us.'
So the UN was fine for the USA government when it was their toy....but no sharing is to be done. It's only useful when UN = US. However the moment some other members and the council itself present an opinion - in steps mass paranioa that they are turning on you. The UN was not turning on the USA, it was following a procedure.

It's a shame when it was all going the USA's way the power and influence wasn't used a little better to bring influence over other members, like China for example. Or would that have meant giving some of the help you speak of to....the enemy

I appreciate what you are saying about supporting cruel regimes, over even crueller regimes..... However I see little evidence of any real moral banding. Just a lot of righteous speak and thinly veiled material intersts.

germin8tion8ionn: 'Ok, compare current Iraq with pre-war Iraq. How many bloodthirsty dictators are in charge now?'
- only one, GWB

germin8tion8ionn: 'Kim Jong Il is a scumbag leading a "cruel regime" that has WMD's. His main goal though, really, isn't the destruction of a few nations or the USA, it's his and his other cohorts financial solvency. We can pay him, in money or in trade agreements, so that he'll just not make nukes.'
And the USA will believe him?.....or will it then force another war?

If you compare N Korea and Iraq to Hitler's germany, I think you will see that Hitler was in an arms race proper, and so is N Korea....Saddam barely had the means, especially with all the sanctions laid upon his nation.

When you look back at those times, perhaps the USA should have helped out Germany the way you speak of helping N Korea. Before Hitler had had a chance to monopolise on peoples disenfranchisement.
It seems like there's double standards everywhere -
Saddam ran a dire regime: put sanctions on his nation starve his people, cut off supplies etc etc.
Kim Jong runs a dire regime: feed him up, send the money over, look after him - he's not that bad (ask his people!)
Hitler runs a dire regime: let him rise up to ridiculous heady hights of armed to the teeth power, and then actually wage war on the world in the most threatening manner until he has spent 3 years taking over most of Europe, and advancing his empire in every direction, before directly stepping in. (Sure I know the USA supplied a few planes, pilots and some financial aid to the UK before 1942. However wouldn't you say Hitler's World Domination rap was pretty threatening from way back before the war even started? That it was more poised, sharpened, definite and empowered than any of the middle east nations - by a lightyear or 2. Was action taken?)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2770903 - 06/07/04 07:53 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

germin8tion8ion: 'Should we say "OK Africa, no more money from us since you are all ruthless dictators" and allow hundreds of thousands of people tos tarve to death again?'

lol

As if US aid is saving people, oh sorry the dictators are doing fine
- Looked at Africa lately?

germin8tion8ion:'The next time that the UN decides "they" need something, we can just tell them that it doesn't fit our interest, and we can let China and the Congo help them out. It's just that simple. Being the only superpower on the block gives us alot of, well, power.'
- Team players till the end! Shit you are starting to sound like Hitler with this world dominance rap.
Aren't Truth & Justice supposed to be the 2 cornerstones of the American way?


So what happens when NKorea stop playing? And they've spent all the money you've given them on Nukes, fed up a great big army with the aid that was supposed to go to civillians and decide they want to spit the dummy?
Will it be sanctions and then agresive war again? Except against real WMD, because you let him away with it?


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: CJay]
    #2771544 - 06/07/04 01:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
when you look at an invading army... It is terrorism on a grand scale when launched as an unprovoked action.



True, very true.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2772530 - 06/07/04 07:27 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Does "State-sponsored" terrorism mean anything to you?




It certainly does. If the Taliban, for example, are paying non-uniformed members of a guerilla unit that doesn't support the soverign nation to go and bomb embassies, it's "state sponsored terrorism". If any nation uses their uniformed, lawful military to invade another nation, it's an act of war. Terrorism doesn't equate to "bad things done with guns". It's a very specific word.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: CJay]
    #2772560 - 06/07/04 07:36 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
when you look at an invading army, if that isn't a complete organism made up of cell structures attacking an opposing establishment - then I don't know what it is. It is terrorism on a grand scale when launched as an unprovoked action.




Read a book.
Quote:


Back to my falling down point on my first post of only mentioning one terrorist attack by the middle east rather than 2. Corect me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the arch purpetrator of both said to be Osama bin Laden? And has he been brought to justice?




No, the first was some Shiek Mohammed someone, who was sentanced, along with fiveother extremists. Osama was responsible for the second attack, and he hasn't been "broght to justice". What the fuck are you reading/smoking that would let you think that bin-Laden has been captured as of yet? Are you just that dumb?
Quote:


So the UN was fine for the USA government when it was their toy....but no sharing is to be done. It's only useful when UN = US.




The US isn't cowtowing to an organization that we voluntarily belong to? How dare we! China and the Congo should start an investigation, them being on the human rights committie and all.
Quote:


However the moment some other members and the council itself present an opinion - in steps mass paranioa that they are turning on you. The UN was not turning on the USA, it was following a procedure.




Oh, so the UN's lack of actions in Iraq were "procedural"? Explain the"procedure" followed from un resolution 641.
Quote:


It's a shame when it was all going the USA's way the power and influence wasn't used a little better to bring influence over other members, like China for example. Or would that have meant giving some of the help you speak of to....the enemy




Hm, babelfish can't seem to translate from "idiot" to "english", could you re-write that in a manner that can be read by all? Thanks
Quote:


I appreciate what you are saying about supporting cruel regimes, over even crueller regimes..... However I see little evidence of any real moral banding. Just a lot of righteous speak and thinly veiled material intersts.




What are you talking about specifically? Name some instances where what you accuse of happening is actually happening.

Quote:


- only one, GWB




Bush isn't in charge of Iraq. Great research Mr 1 Attack man.
Quote:


And the USA will believe him?.....or will it then force another war?




I'm going to start charging for history lessons soon, beware. The US and the International Atomic Energy (association, comittie, not sure which) had MONITORS (living people) installed in the nuclear plant that is in question. They kicekd them out. If they re-allow them, we'll have to belive them. Neat how that works, hm?
Quote:


If you compare N Korea and Iraq to Hitler's germany, I think you will see that Hitler was in an arms race proper, and so is N Korea....Saddam barely had the means, especially with all the sanctions laid upon his nation.




They aren't really in an arms race, most political thinkers realize that N Korea just wants to have barganing chips. Their main goal is to stop building weapons and start getting money or sanctions lifted.
Quote:


When you look back at those times, perhaps the USA should have helped out Germany the way you speak of helping N Korea. Before Hitler had had a chance to monopolise on peoples disenfranchisement.




Why would pre-war Germany need any "help"? Hitlers sense of nationalism after the Versailles treaty crippled Germany was rebuilding Germany. More jobs, more money, taking over a few nations. What "help" would he have asked for? If you think that the booming economy and expansion of pre-war Germany and the rag-tag cesspit of poorness and squallor in N Korea compare at all, you'll have to reread some history.
Quote:


It seems like there's double standards everywhere -
Saddam ran a dire regime: put sanctions on his nation starve his people, cut off supplies etc etc.




Saddam was the one starving his people.
Quote:


Kim Jong runs a dire regime: feed him up, send the money over, look after him - he's not that bad (ask his people!)




So instead of us "supporting a dire regime", which you hate it when we do, and instead of us using military force, which is a big NO NO in liberalthink, we shouldj ust allow him to build and sell nuclear weapons. Thats some liberal logic for ya right there! Great idea!
Quote:


Hitler runs a dire regime: let him rise up to ridiculous heady hights of armed to the teeth power, and then actually wage war on the world in the most threatening manner until he has spent 3 years taking over most of Europe, and advancing his empire in every direction, before directly stepping in. (Sure I know the USA supplied a few planes, pilots and some financial aid to the UK before 1942. However wouldn't you say Hitler's World Domination rap was pretty threatening from way back before the war even started? That it was more poised, sharpened, definite and empowered than any of the middle east nations - by a lightyear or 2. Was action taken?)



I didn't even read all of that. Learn to type in sentances and paragraphs and i'll gladly tear it to shreds as well.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2772577 - 06/07/04 07:42 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
As if US aid is saving people, oh sorry the dictators are doing fine
- Looked at Africa lately?




Step 1) watch "black hawk down", then read on what the US did in that region
Step 2) stop being a fool
Quote:


- Team players till the end! Shit you are starting to sound like Hitler with this world dominance rap.




CAn you quote me where Hitler spoke of "World" dominance? Mein Kampf talks about his quest for Living Space only throughout Europe. Maybe this is from the "History of the World where Only One Terrorist Attack Happened on US Soil at the Hands of Middle Eastern Terrorists" history book. Also, how exactly does wanting us t oNOT take place in a world government mean that I want us to have world domination? Wouldn't us doing what hte UN wants be giving the UN this hitler-esque world domination? something to ponder..
Quote:


Aren't Truth & Justice supposed to be the 2 cornerstones of the American way?




You are confusing "the American way" with "Superman", the TV show. He was about Truth, Justice AND the American way. Things such as the Bill of Rights and the constitution are the cornerstones of the "American way". Good try though
Quote:


So what happens when NKorea stop playing? And they've spent all the money you've given them on Nukes, fed up a great big army with the aid that was supposed to go to civillians and decide they want to spit the dummy?




*sigh*
1) The US and the rest of the international community isn't worried about korea BUYING nukes, they are concerned with a dualpurpose reactor in North Korea that DID have human monitors in place to ensure that they weren't building nukes. If these monitors were in place, how would they get the nukes? They fucking wouldn't, Einstein.

2) ugh
Quote:


Will it be sanctions and then agresive war again? Except against real WMD, because you let him away with it?



Nope, read why. Fun teaching you a lesson, Class begins tomorrow at 5.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2773586 - 06/08/04 01:57 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Step 1) watch "black hawk down",

That's where you get your history from is it?

Step 2) stop being a fool

:rolleyes:

They fucking wouldn't, Einstein.

:rolleyes:

CAn you quote me where Hitler spoke of "World" dominance? Mein Kampf talks about his quest for Living Space only throughout Europe.

He had his generals draw up plans for invading India when he thought he had a chance against the Russians in mid-41. His plan was world dominance.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2773907 - 06/08/04 06:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You are confusing "the American way" with "Superman", the TV show. He was about Truth, Justice AND the American way. Things such as the Bill of Rights and the constitution are the cornerstones of the "American way". Good try though





Ahh as I suspected. Truth and justice have nothing to do with the American way...


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2773937 - 06/08/04 07:00 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Hitler was extending his empire in every direction - East, West, North, South - throughout Europe into Asia, Africa....open your eyes.
This guy wanted one thing. And he had the means and he was far more aggressive and dangerous than any dictator about today......yet the USA did nothing for 'freedom' during his ascension to power.
However you are keen as mustard to get into second rate dictator's nations, people who pose no valid threat to the USA or to Europe......
But people who have a lot of oil and a lot of poppies......

germin8tiion8ion: 'Why would pre-war Germany need any "help"?'
- To support the people and show solidarity in the international community before a mad dictator had had a chance to convince them the only way out of their hell-hole existence was to hand over their reason to him.


I'll read some books when you open your eyes

So you get your history and values off black hawk down, not superman then. Sounds like you're as dumb as me. Well I guess that's the way US culture feeds it's big lines - via TV and Hollywood.


By the way I know Osama has not been caught - maybe you should read a book on rhetoric.
But thanks for qualifying - no he hasn't been caught. Instead he has been used as an excuse to terrorise a subcontinent, impinge on people's freedoms and generally throw aside reason.
And back to the first WTC attempt, his name was certainly bandied about by the US government and the media.

Having a reactor isn't the only way to get nuclear warhead grade radioactive material......I mean you guys were pretty convinced saddam had his ways despite all those sanctions. I don't think it's too hard to get these things when you are pals with china and know a lot of the shady avenues of power in Asia. There's still a lot of the old soviet stuff floating around for starters.
The US intelligence on Saddam's WMD wasn't a patch...I'm sure you've got Kim sussed out. No way he could be doing things you don't know about.

N.Korea isn't prewar Germany, but it's a hell of a lot closer than Iraq. The army is one of the most powerful in the world...and they have real WMD. And I think Kim likes the power game quite a lot, it's not just about the money.

Just a lot of righteous speak and thinly veiled material interests - You want an example? uuuummmmm - looked at Iraq lately?

germin8tion8ion: 'So instead of us "supporting a dire regime", which you hate it when we do, and instead of us using military force, which is a big NO NO in liberalthink, we shouldj ust allow him (saddam)to build and sell nuclear weapons'
- No how about - don't support him, don't sell arms and precursors to WMD to him. Anyway where are these nukes?
DON'T SUPPORT HIM, DON'T USE UNPROVOKED MILITARY FORCE - it's quite simple

Shame you can't us this massive power you brag about to ensure any food aid etc goes to civillians and the people who need it rather than handing it straight to the trusty dictators of the world. You seem to have enough power to do everything else you please.

you don't have to cowtow to the UN, you could just try respecting it. The UN isn't a hitler-esque world domination body. When you join an organisation you have a certain responsibility to it, that is if your word counts for anything.

The UN was carrying out inspections, Saddam was impotised....The path of reason was being followed. Till the US government ran out of time to see through the only outcome it was considering. It couldn't be left for any truth or justice to fully emerge...the war had to be fought while the pretext was still strong.

Can't wait for the next history lesson germ!


Edited by CJay (06/08/04 07:21 AM)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2773961 - 06/08/04 07:38 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So by your definition then JFK sending 'freedom fighters' into Cuba was state sponsored terrorism.

and Reagan had a ball in Nicaragua sponsoring terrorism too.

The US government is, and has been, as naughty as any other that it deplores.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2774030 - 06/08/04 09:13 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

It seems to be you who is not defining terrorism correctly, since you love your books so much perhaps you should look up 'terrorism' in a dictionary.

I'm afraid that wearing uniforms or not, has nothing to do with it.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Xlea321]
    #2774173 - 06/08/04 10:25 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Im sorry, I guess that torturing and slaughtering tens of thousands of people is not really an invasion, sorry.

What evidence do you have he was "torturing and slaughtering tens of thousands of people?" There was the US approved putdown of the rebellions post 1991 when the US allowed Saddam to abuse the no-fly zone and use helicopter gunships, but in the last 12 years what rebellion has there been? Certainly the vast bulk of the mass graves that have been found are from the 80's when Saddam was so close to Bush and Reagan it was dubbed "the love affair".




Your kidding me right?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2930739.stm

Its almost assumed collective knowledge that he had torture chambers the entire time still in use.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2774335 - 06/08/04 11:43 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Nope - one of the things Blair and Bush were desperate to find were recent mass graves. The vast bulk of them were from ten plus years ago.

He's killed thousands but he did the OVERWHELMING bulk of his killing when he was so close to Washington it was dubbed "the love affair".


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2774371 - 06/08/04 12:12 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Yes Saddam was a mean old son of a gun - to say the least

'One man said he had spent eight years inside, just for attending Friday prayers. He prayed too much and was seen as a dangerous radical.'

However it seems he showed little support for religious fervour....the opposite infact

He doesn't seem like a big Al-Quada supporter, yet Bush quite consistently lumps them together.

Why was his abhorrable regime selected above other equally abhorrable regimes?....Sure the argument for invasion was WMD, but we all know that has been the thinnest part of the plot so far. I just can't help but remember Colin Powell with that irrefutable proof....And where are the WMD?

It just wasn't a genuine line, and to me that brings everything into doubt since it was the main thrust of the argument for invasion. And really the only thrust since the moral argument could be applied to many nations, yet none of them are being invaded in the name of freedom.

And why was his abhorrable regime respected by the US government throughout the 80's when he was still the same dictator, ruling his people in the same way?

To me the moral argument falls down there. If the moral argument for 'freeing' the Iraqi people was genuine, how could exactly the same people who state that argument have been happy to be in bed with him for so long?

It's bad all round.


Edited by CJay (06/08/04 12:37 PM)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: CJay]
    #2774499 - 06/08/04 01:17 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well, we drew the line when he invaded Kuwait in '91, then had a cease fire. On the numberous violations the UN chose to do nothing so we finally went back in. And they mass graves are from the 80's?? I never remember seeing reports on how old the bodies were.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Xlea321]
    #2775131 - 06/08/04 05:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OVERWHELMING bulk



Bet that makes the minority feel MUCH better.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2776584 - 06/09/04 01:58 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

On the numberous violations the UN chose to do nothing so we finally went back in.

So will Bush be invading Israel next? They've violated a hell of a lot more UN resolutions over longer period of time than Saddam ever has.

And they mass graves are from the 80's?? I never remember seeing reports on how old the bodies were.

Yeah - vast bulk from the 80's, some from the post-gulf war rebellion when Bush left the shi'ites and Kurds swinging in the wind and let Saddam abuse the no-fly zone with helicopter gunships. A weak Saddam was considered more beneficial to the American cause than a strong fundamentalist regime.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2785638 - 06/11/04 05:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Most terrorist groups have their own policies. Does this mean you would no longer view them as terrorists?




I'm assuming that your ever changing definition of "terrorist" means that McVeigh and Co were State Sponsored Terrorists, right?
Quote:


How tedious.




Don't blame me for your lack of ability to define "terrorism". You said people that killed innocents, or some such 5th grade simplistic answer, were terrorists. I asked if drunk drivers were terrorists, they do that too, ya know.
Quote:


Giving aid is passively trying to help a country or its people. Interfering/invading is actively trying to further our own agenda, sometimes under the guise of trying to help. Told you it was simple didnt I?




Maybe you could "simple" it out for me some more and show why we'd have a constitutional obligation to help these people without trying to make it somehow benefit us?
Quote:


Next you will be asking for proof that the earth is round. The fact that your own country sold precursors for WMD to Iraq in the 80's should be a fairly big clue though. Guess who lent the Iraqis the money to buy it...




Alex has been trying this ruse out for a while, let me make sure I got what you are saying. After the US sold saddam precursors (Which isn't true, you don't have a "precursor" for a living organism such as anthrax), and after we funded him to have WMD's, then how was it a lie to say that saddam had WMD's?
Quote:


Very low quality joke.Do you always do that when the truths a little uncomfortable for you?




No, only when I'm arguing with someone as unsophisticated and as juvenlie as you.
Quote:


Utter gibberish. You dont really know what you are talking about do you? Just spouting off your dumb old daddy's opinions I should imagine, with a touch of Fox news thrown in to make you feel inter-lek-chal.



UN Resolution 641 . Read it and weep. You never addressed your wonderful misinterpretation of a "contraction", I doubt you ever will. did you call my father dumb? I'll make sure that the mods see that, Flame's aren't tolerated here. And as for me being "intellectual". I'm not the one that isn't intelligent enough to narrow down what I mean by "terrorism". And by "isn't", I, of course, mean "is not", like I did in the previous example. Thanks.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2785666 - 06/11/04 06:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
Hitler was extending his empire in every direction - East, West, North, South - throughout Europe into Asia, Africa....open your eyes.
This guy wanted one thing. And he had the means and he was far more aggressive and dangerous than any dictator about today......yet the USA did nothing for 'freedom' during his ascension to power.
However you are keen as mustard to get into second rate dictator's nations, people who pose no valid threat to the USA or to Europe......
But people who have a lot of oil and a lot of poppies......




So, um, if a person is taking power in any nation around the world, and we don't like him, you are saying that it would be a good idea to just launch a pre emptive strike against them before they do anything wrong? WHy is it I have a hard time believing this is your true opinion?
Quote:


- To support the people and show solidarity in the international community before a mad dictator had had a chance to convince them the only way out of their hell-hole existence was to hand over their reason to him.




I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe time to put down the history book that talks of "ONE" mid-east led terrorist attack in the USA and pick up one just a weensy bit more accurate?
Quote:


So you get your history and values off black hawk down, not superman then. Sounds like you're as dumb as me. Well I guess that's the way US culture feeds it's big lines - via TV and Hollywood.




I was dumbing it down to your level. And whats wrong with superman?
Quote:


By the way I know Osama has not been caught - maybe you should read a book on rhetoric.




Maybe you should read a book on mental retardation. You were saying how Osama was responsible for the FIRST attack, which isn't true at all. He wasnt' responsible, nor has he been apprehended. HOwever, the person/s responsible for the first attack are currently being anally intruded 10x a day in a prison for the rest of their lives. So no matter how you cut it ,you are wrong.
Quote:


But thanks for qualifying - no he hasn't been caught. Instead he has been used as an excuse to terrorise a subcontinent, impinge on people's freedoms and generally throw aside reason.




Yea, those Afghan women that get to drive a car and not wear burkahs without being executed in the soccer stadiums rant and rave non-stop about their freedoms being impinged upon
Quote:


And back to the first WTC attempt, his name was certainly bandied about by the US government and the media.




Blowing up a truck in a building is as much an "attempt" at terrorism as a gang-bang is an "attempt" at losing your virginity. I don't think they did really talk about Osama for the first one, maybe you could show me a link or some sort of evidence? Although, if your source for this is the same source where their was only one attack, you might want to consider the fact that I won't accept it.
Quote:


Having a reactor isn't the only way to get nuclear warhead grade radioactive material......I mean you guys were pretty convinced saddam had his ways despite all those sanctions. I don't think it's too hard to get these things when you are pals with china and know a lot of the shady avenues of power in Asia. There's still a lot of the old soviet stuff floating around for starters.




The entire issue with N Korea recently began when they removed inspectors from their reactor. Sure they could "buy" It on the open market, but that would be like having 1 ton of compost, spores, a sterile lab, incubators and terrariums and hanging out in the ghetto looking to buy shrooms. Kinda unlikely, know what I mean?
Quote:


N.Korea isn't prewar Germany, but it's a hell of a lot closer than Iraq. The army is one of the most powerful in the world...and they have real WMD. And I think Kim likes the power game quite a lot, it's not just about the money.




How many nations has Kim invaded?
Quote:


- No how about - don't support him, don't sell arms and precursors to WMD to him. Anyway where are these nukes?




You honestly aren't saying that you don't think N Korea has nukes, are you? Maybe in the same world where Osama organized teh first (and nonexistant) attack on the WTC, and the second (really the first) one, that might be true. Read a book.
Quote:


DON'T SUPPORT HIM, DON'T USE UNPROVOKED MILITARY FORCE - it's quite simple




Funny how a few paragraphs above you were talking about how the USA should have stopped Hitlers rise to power. So, using your "No support", and "No unprovoked military force", how would we have stopepd Hitlers rise to power?
Quote:


Shame you can't us this massive power you brag about to ensure any food aid etc goes to civillians and the people who need it rather than handing it straight to the trusty dictators of the world. You seem to have enough power to do everything else you please.




I'd really have to refer you to black hawk down as just one teensy example of where we did just that. Would you think that using US military forces in a foreign, soverign nation to ensure that food went to the people would qualify as "use of force"? IF so, didn't you JUST SAY that you wouldn't support that?
Quote:


you don't have to cowtow to the UN, you could just try respecting it. The UN isn't a hitler-esque world domination body. When you join an organisation you have a certain responsibility to it, that is if your word counts for anything.




Hah. If "our" word counts for anything. I'd say that our "promise" to disarm Saddam and the UN's "commitment" to do show really demonstrates which of us means what they say.
Quote:


The UN was carrying out inspections, Saddam was impotised....The path of reason was being followed. Till the US government ran out of time to see through the only outcome it was considering. It couldn't be left for any truth or justice to fully emerge...the war had to be fought while the pretext was still strong.




Removing a man who kills innocent people isn't "true" or "just"? Do tell.
Quote:


Can't wait for the next history lesson germ!



No problem for me.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2786931 - 06/12/04 03:01 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Alex has been trying this ruse out for a while, let me make sure I got what you are saying. After the US sold saddam precursors (Which isn't true, you don't have a "precursor" for a living organism such as anthrax), and after we funded him to have WMD's, then how was it a lie to say that saddam had WMD's?

:gonzo:

No, we know he had the WMD we gave him them back in the 80's. But, are you sitting comfortably? IT'S WHETHER HE HAD THEM IN 2003.

No, only when I'm arguing with someone as unsophisticated and as juvenlie as you.

  :gonzo:

UN Resolution 641 . Read it and weep

I've read it. I didn't weep. Now it's time for you to read it.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2786938 - 06/12/04 03:07 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So, um, if a person is taking power in any nation around the world

If they conquer Europe, go ahead and invade. Don't try and compare that with invading Iraq.

Maybe you should read a book on mental retardation

Why, are you looking to offload some?

Yea, those Afghan women that get to drive a car and not wear burkahs without being executed in the soccer stadiums rant and rave non-stop about their freedoms being impinged upon

Do you know ANYTHING about the current situation for women in Afghanistan?

I'd say that our "promise" to disarm Saddam and the UN's "commitment" to do show really demonstrates which of us means what they say.

:gonzo:

Disarm him of what? Hate to break this to you, it doesn't like you've heard. THEY HAVN'T FOUND ANY WMD.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2786950 - 06/12/04 03:14 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, the US gave Iraq no WMDs, either in 1980 or at any other time. As you yourself have argued repeatedly in this forum, precursors and dual-use manufacturing equipment are not weapons of mass destruction. According to you, a barrel of sarin isn't a weapon of mass destruction either. Nor is a barrel of sarin sitting next to a row of empty artillery shells with a filling mechanism in between. To you, even an artillery shell filled with sarin is not a weapon of mass destruction -- you have posted here several times how the only real weapons of mass destruction are nuclear devices, and I've never seen you provide a source showing the US providing nuclear bombs to Iraq, so stop yammering on about how the US "sold" or "gave" or "provided" Iraq WMDs.

You can't have it both ways, Alex.

pinky


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2786960 - 06/12/04 03:18 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

My view is as the military experts and defence ministers have said - the only WMD are nuclear weapons. Unfortunately most of the right-wingers on the board arn't sophisticated enough to grasp that so to engage with them I have to accept their fantasies about what constitutes a WMD.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2786997 - 06/12/04 03:37 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

It's not just the right wingers, Alex -- it's the UN as well.

For decades "unconventional" weaponry was routinely referred to as "NBC" weaponry -- nuclear, biological, chemical. At some point in the last two decades, that term became supplanted by "weapons of mass destruction". The two terms are equivalent, however.

More to the point, the conditions of the conditional ceasefire signed by Iraq required verifiable proof of the destruction of Iraq's chemical, biological, and nuclear weaponry programs as well as existing stocks of same. Re-read the relevant resolutions and you will see that the specific terms "nuclear", "chemical", and "biological" are used throughout. The wording was never as imprecise as "weapons of mass destruction" -- it specified what needed to be destroyed and accounted for. Playing word games doesn't alter the facts.

Your position has always been that Iraq destroyed their NBCs and their NBC-making equipment and dismantled their NBC programs -- it's just that they did so in secret at some as-yet-undiscovered location(s) at some as-yet-unspecified time(s) with no record of it ever having occurred. You feel people who don't accept the (ex) Iraqi regime at their word about this are somehow imbeciles for doubting them: Those who are concerned there is no proof (or even evidence) of this secret destruction are somehow brainwashed; those who point out how easy it is to bury a few tractor-trailers full of gear just about anywhere are scare-mongering; those who figure the Iraqi yahoo who managed to get his hands on a binary sarin artillery shell to use as an IED might not have stumbled across the only one left in all Iraq are delusional.

You are free of course to hold these opinions. I leave it to the readers to decide who is being more brainwashed/naive/delusional here.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2787091 - 06/12/04 06:15 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, the US gave Iraq no WMDs, either in 1980 or at any other time.




Youd love that to be true wouldnt you Pinky?!

"Success was not difficult, The man in charge of licensing at the Commerce Department was Dennis Kloske, who, to speed up approvals for Iraq, cut the Pentagon out of the review process. Kloske simply did not want to deal with the Pentagon's pesky objections. In full knowledge that Iraq was developing missiles at a giant complex known as Saad-16, Commerce under Kloske approved millions of dollars worth of sensitive US electronics clearly marked for Saad-16. These products directly aided the Iraqi missile design and production effort. "

Source


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2787102 - 06/12/04 06:42 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Actually, the US gave Iraq no WMDs, either in 1980 or at any other time.




Youd love that to be true wouldnt you Pinky?!

"Success was not difficult, The man in charge of licensing at the Commerce Department was Dennis Kloske, who, to speed up approvals for Iraq, cut the Pentagon out of the review process. Kloske simply did not want to deal with the Pentagon's pesky objections. In full knowledge that Iraq was developing missiles at a giant complex known as Saad-16, Commerce under Kloske approved millions of dollars worth of sensitive US electronics clearly marked for Saad-16. These products directly aided the Iraqi missile design and production effort. "

Source



So if we are to go with the quote you provided.... it would seem that you are adding "sensitive electronics" to the list of WMD's.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2787138 - 06/12/04 07:37 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

These were electronics which were clearly destined for WMD programs.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2787140 - 06/12/04 07:46 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
These were electronics which were clearly destined for WMD programs.



pinky clearly and consisely stated.....
Actually, the US gave Iraq no WMDs, either in 1980 or at any other time.

Electronics, no matter what their use, are not WMD's.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2787192 - 06/12/04 08:34 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Oh so its only morally corrupt if you sell the completed article but its ok to knowingly sell the components of wmd.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2787290 - 06/12/04 10:47 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Your position

It's a little more than "my position". The WMD arn't in Iraq. No scientists or workers who have worked on them in years can be found. These are the facts we have to deal with. If we accept Iraq had a US supplied WMD program in the 80's then the WMD they produced are clearly long gone.

it's just that they did so in secret at some as-yet-undiscovered location(s) at some as-yet-unspecified time(s) with no record of it ever having occurred.

Except that it was done with the full knowledge of UN weapons inspectors, who said Iraq had been 98% disarmed - a higher disarmament figure than any other country.

those who point out how easy it is to bury a few tractor-trailers full of gear just about anywhere are scare-mongering;

You still don't get this do you pinky. It isn't about burying tractor-trailers. That was bullshit put out to fool the gullible. It's about hiding the heavy industrial plant, scientists and countless workers that must have been involved.

You are free of course to hold these opinions

Do you still believe there are WMD in Iraq and that we just havn't found them yet? Even David Kay - Bush's handpicked man - sent in to find the WMD says people who still hold your view are "really delusional".


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2787674 - 06/12/04 02:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Please show me where I said it's OK. I'm merely pointing out that your reply to pinky's statement was way off.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/12/04 02:03 PM)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789138 - 06/13/04 02:39 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So if we are to go with the quote you provided.... it would seem that you are adding "sensitive electronics" to the list of WMD's.

Going by Hagbards other thread on this scrap metal is also a WMD.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789385 - 06/13/04 06:05 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So if we are to go with the quote you provided.... it would seem that you are adding "sensitive electronics" to the list of WMD's.

Going by Hagbards other thread on this scrap metal is also a WMD.



Except oh disingenuous non-comprehending one, Hagbard did not make such a claim The article states the material was being screened for radioactive residue. Whereas in THIS thread pinky stated we never sold WMD's to Iraq and Gazz posted a quote showing electronics were sold to Iraq in an attempt to prove pinky wrong.

So Hagbard did not attempt to add anything whereas Gazz certainly seems to have made the attempt.

No fruit in the UK? Must not be or you'd know the difference between an apple and an orange.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/13/04 06:06 AM)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789426 - 06/13/04 07:17 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Parts of WMD or complete WMDs its hardly a big difference is it..especially when you know full well that the equipment you are selling is to be used in a missile program. Perhaps you would care to give me you view on this kind of hypocrisy?


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789429 - 06/13/04 07:23 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The article states the material was being screened for radioactive residue.

:gonzo:

What is your point oh lying one?

Incidentally it actually says "the only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," Middle East Newsline reported.

"It's being exported," Perricos said after the briefing. "It's being traded out. And there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal."


Does your comprehension not enable you to understand that the scrap metal is being considered suspicious?

Whereas in THIS thread pinky stated we never sold WMD's to Iraq

Have you ever tried thinking for yourself? Try it someday.

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Snr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

http://www.rense.com/general29/wesold.htm

No fruit in the UK?

There's clearly at least one large fruit in the US..


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Edited by Alex123 (06/13/04 07:44 AM)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2789450 - 06/13/04 07:55 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Fertilizer can be used as a bomb, does that mean if you sell fertilizer you've sold a bomb?

Didn't think so. Selling electronics is not selling WMD's.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789451 - 06/13/04 08:01 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What is your point oh lying one?



we've been over this before. Show a lie I've told.

You don't have the balls, brains, or ability for I don't lie.



Quote:

Does your comprehension not enable you to understand that the scrap metal is being considered suspicious? 



I have enough comprehension to know that suspicion and reality are two different thing. Too bad you don't.


Quote:

Have you ever tried thinking for yourself? Try it someday. 



:rotfl:
This from the guy who would drive a spiked steering wheeled car on the Britains 3/4's of the globe? While reading blatantly misleading web sites and swallowing their shit hook, line and sinker?


Quote:

There's clearly at least one large fruit in the US.



Gosh PinochhiAl, another homophobic slur?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789548 - 06/13/04 10:08 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

:gonzo:


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789552 - 06/13/04 10:11 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

That's what I thought.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789556 - 06/13/04 10:14 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

:crymeariver:


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789585 - 06/13/04 10:59 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fertilizer can be used as a bomb, does that mean if you sell fertilizer you've sold a bomb?

Didn't think so. Selling electronics is not selling WMD's.




Read the article and then come back to me. It clearly states the electronics were marked for Saad-16, the Iraqi weapons program.

Now say someone walks into a shop and says to the guy behind the counter "Hey gimme some fertiliser, i wanna make some bombs" and he gives him the fertiliser, in your opinion has the shopkeep done anything wrong? Does he bear any responsibility for the people killed by bombs made with his fertiliser?


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2789592 - 06/13/04 11:10 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Does he bear any responsibility for the people killed by bombs made with his fertiliser?



Nope. Nor does the company that made it, or the shippers.

The blame falls on those who make and use the bomb.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789718 - 06/13/04 12:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So what was all that hysteria about the "threat" of Saddam giving terrorists the materials to make a nuclear bomb? If he'd done it you wouldn't have considered him responsible?


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789738 - 06/13/04 01:02 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So what was all that hysteria about the "threat" of Saddam giving terrorists the materials to make a nuclear bomb? If he'd done it you wouldn't have considered him responsible?



*Sigh*

I can't believe you need this to be explained to you. The electronics can be used in a missle. The missle does not have to be fitted with WMD's.

The fertilizer can be used as fertilizer. It does not need to be used as a bomb.

Now... if there is a use for weapons grade nuclear material other than a bomb, I'm not aware of it. I suppose terrorists could use nuclear material in an attempt to make some kind of cell phone power packs, or a home-made x-ray machine..... bit that doesn't seem too likely now does it?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789741 - 06/13/04 01:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I see..so what other use has the anthrax and botulism, VX nerve gas the US companies were supplying Saddam with?

The fertilizer can be used as fertilizer. It does not need to be used as a bomb.

Even tho the guy has just told you "Give me fertilizer to make a bomb". Idiocy.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789760 - 06/13/04 01:12 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well hell Alpo, I'm sure you've told people you were actually going to read books you've bought.

Merely stating you're going to use something doesn't mean you really will. If you go to a liquor store and buy a bottle while stating your going to get drunk, and the clerk sells it to you whereupon you drink it, drive, and kill someone, that doesn't make the clerk responsible for your behavior.

(maybe you can still get your money back on those books)


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/13/04 01:13 PM)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2791077 - 06/13/04 11:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

Youd love that to be true wouldnt you Pinky?!

It is true. The US has never sold Iraq any WMDs.

The electronics sold by US firms to Iraq pre-Gulf War I were not WMDs, they were components to be used in the development of guided missiles. Even after the 1991 conditional ceasefire was signed, Iraq was not required to destroy all their missiles -- just those with a range longer than 150 miles (or 150 kilometers -- I can't be bothered to check right now).

The same article you linked points out France's selling Iraq an entire nuclear program, and Germany selling them a complete chemical weapons program, but hey, that's cool because neither France nor Germany is the US, so no harm done.

pinky


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2791148 - 06/14/04 12:11 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Parts of WMD or complete WMDs its hardly a big difference is it..especially when you know full well that the equipment you are selling is to be used in a missile program. Perhaps you would care to give me you view on this kind of hypocrisy?




I'll give you my view on your kind of hypocrisy.

If parts of WMD or complete WMD is hardly a big difference, then the claims that Iraq had WMD should no longer be questioned.

Your kind of hypocrisy says it's no difference when you get to blaim the US for supplying it, but it is a huge difference when you get to blaim the US for it not being there.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2791175 - 06/14/04 12:21 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

The WMD arn't in Iraq.

Then where are they? There is no credible proof of the destruction of the stocks Iraq was known to have. Significant quantities remain unaccounted for to this day. Are they in Jordan now? Syria? Iran?

No scientists or workers who have worked on them in years can be found.

Quite a few scientists known to have been working on Iraq's special weaponry programs have been murdered. Probably just a coincidence.

If we accept Iraq had a US supplied WMD program in the 80's...

Which they didn't.

... then the WMD they produced are clearly long gone.

Gone where?

Clearly they aren't all gone. I note you and every other poster here who wishes Hussein was still in power completely ignores the binary sarin shell found as part of an IED last month. Let me ask you, Alex (though why I bother I don't know, since you will never answer this question anyway), do you believe that the guy who built that IED somehow managed to find the only undestroyed binary sarin shell left in all Iraq? How the hell did he know it was a sarin shell, since there were no distinguishing marks on it whatsoever? Which ammo dump did he retrieve it from?

Except that it was done with the full knowledge of UN weapons inspectors...

Incorrect. The entire history of the UN inspectors' experience in Iraq was one long struggle to get access and "full knowledge".

... who said Iraq had been 98% disarmed...

Incorrect again. One inspector said that. Other figures I have read say anywhere from 90 to 95%. Even assuming for the sake of argument that only 2% of the stocks Iraq was known to possess remains unaccounted for -- leaving aside entirely any undeclared stocks -- that leaves literally thousands of pounds of goo that could be anywhere by now. And as the history of the inspections clearly shows, the amount of the stuff he was known to have was an ever-increasing number. "Hey, Hussein, what's this stuff over here? That wasn't on the list!" "Oops -- so sorry, yes, I forgot about that little pile. Oh, well, add it to the list if you must." This happened on more than one occasion, as you well know.

But again, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that eventually Hussein did declare everything of his own free will, and that absolutely no other undeclared stocks were left. I repeat, that missing two per cent is a substantial amount. Where is it?

You still don't get this do you pinky. It isn't about burying tractor-trailers. That was bullshit put out to fool the gullible.

Gullible? You are saying I am gullible for pointing out that it's no big trick to hide a couple of shipping containers full of VX and/or sarin in a country the size of Iraq? The same country where several entire jet fighters were unearthed which had been buried under sand? Uh-huh.

It's about hiding the heavy industrial plant, scientists and countless workers that must have been involved.

So sorry, but you don't need a "heavy industrial plant" and "countless" workers to churn out a few thousand liters of nerve gas. Two chemists and a few lab assistants working with just standard laboratory glassware in a university lab could turn out a few liters a day with no sweat. But as for industrial plant, it doesn't strike you as odd how many "pesticide" plants have been found in Iraq? Especially pesticide plants found inside military compounds? Iraq surely must have had one gigantic cockroach problem pre-war, I guess.

Do you still believe there are WMD in Iraq and that we just havn't found them yet?

Here's how it works, Alex. I don't answer your questions until you answer at least one of mine. Do you believe Hussein destroyed all his stocks and his production facilities? Yes or no?

Even David Kay - Bush's handpicked man - sent in to find the WMD says people who still hold your view are "really delusional".

I know you like to frantically search for snippets of conversation using Google and then hold them up as the be-all and end-all of a given person's views. Fortunately, someone else recently posted excerpts from Kay's report showing just how much Kay discovered of Hussein's chemical weapons program that still remained.

As Kay himself states, the fact that he was unable to find any stocks during his time in Iraq doesn't mean the stocks weren't shipped elsewhere before he got there.

Bottom line is, you are willing to take Hussein's word that he destroyed all that stuff, in secret, without telling anyone or keeping any records, without using the destruction as a tool to get the sanctions lifted. If he had been able to show they were destroyed, he'd still be running Iraq today rather than picking lice out of his beard in a prison cell.

Let me ask you another question (knowing full well you won't answer it) -- if Hussein actually destroyed the stuff, why in the world did he not take credit for doing so? What possible reason would he have for destroying it and then doing everything in his power to make it appear that he hadn't? What possible benefit was there to him for following such a bizarre course?

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2791472 - 06/14/04 03:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well hell Alpo..blah..blah

Nice dodge.

I asked you what other use the botulism and VX nerve gas the US supplied Saddam with had. Any ideas?


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2791536 - 06/14/04 03:53 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

No VX nerve gas was ever supplied to Iraq by the US. Cultures of botulism were obtained by Iraq from US firms. So what? Cultures of botulism can be purchased by just about anyone from thousands of different sources.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2791699 - 06/14/04 07:54 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'll give you my view on your kind of hypocrisy.




Gee thanks.

Quote:

If parts of WMD or complete WMD is hardly a big difference, then the claims that Iraq had WMD should no longer be questioned.




Err Im sure there is some twisted logic in there but I sure cant find. I never claimed Iraq did or didnt have WMD. Before the war I said it had not been proven either way and the evidence did not justify a war It now seems likely that they didnt have WMD and had indeed disarmed as they claimed all along. I

Quote:

Your kind of hypocrisy says it's no difference when you get to blaim the US for supplying it, but it is a huge difference when you get to blaim the US for it not being there.




Oh you think I base ny thoughts of some automatic hatred for the US do you? Yeah it seems to be a commonly held view around here by those who are incapable of criticising the US's actions. As far as im concerned that arguement is basically a shortcut to thinking.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2791705 - 06/14/04 08:01 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It is true. The US has never sold Iraq any WMDs.




It may be true that the US never sold completed WMD to Iraq but it is 100% true that the US sold components for WMD. The Saad-16 program was a nuclear program and the US sold key components to Iraq for that program.

Quote:

France's selling Iraq an entire nuclear program, and Germany selling them a complete chemical weapons program, but hey, that's cool because neither France nor Germany is the US, so no harm done.




I have always said the French and the Germans are hypocrites and that the only reason they didnt support the war was to further their own agendas. I have also criticised heavily the UK's involvement in Iraq. So to accuse me of simply being a US basher shows that you dont really pay any attention to the positions of others on this board.

It seems to me that alot of people around here, yourself included, blindly back the US government's foreign policy whatever they do and whoever it effects.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2791707 - 06/14/04 08:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nope. Nor does the company that made it, or the shippers.




You dont actually believe that though Luvdem if you are honest do you?

Lets say this actually happened and someone close to you was killed. When it came out that some guy down the road sold fertiliser to this person knowing full well what the person intended to do are you telling me you would think the shopkeeper held no responsibility? I dont think so.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2791718 - 06/14/04 08:17 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There is no credible proof of the destruction of the stocks Iraq was known to have. Significant quantities remain unaccounted for to this day. Are they in Jordan now? Syria? Iran?





Just because the US does not accept the proof offered by the Iraqi's it does not mean that they were lying.

Lets be honest, the US doesnt seem to have a very good grasp of the concept of credible proof anyway.

Quote:

Quite a few scientists known to have been working on Iraq's special weaponry programs have been murdered. Probably just a coincidence.




How many? I would imagine there were hundreds of scientists in Iraq. Are you implying all those with any knowledge have been killed? If so Id love to see a source for such a wild assertion.

Quote:

If we accept Iraq had a US supplied WMD program in the 80's...

Which they didn't.




Im most interested to see if you will admit you are wrong on this point.

Quote:

I note you and every other poster here who wishes Hussein was still in power




I think you will find most people agree that it will probabaly benefit the Iraqi's that Hussein is no longer in power. However, people object to wars being waged based on lies to further US dominance of the middle east. I dont know why Im explaining this to you again as by now you should know this full well.

Quote:

What possible reason would he have for destroying it and then doing everything in his power to make it appear that he hadn't? What possible benefit was there to him for following such a bizarre course?






Repeatedly claiming to the world that Iraq had disarmed and allowing inspectors in to confirm this is hardly "doing everything in his power to make it appear that he hadn't" is it?


As far as Im concerned the question of whether Hussein did or did not fully disarm as he said is indeterminate at this time. I think we can determine that Iraq did not pose a significant threat to world peace and that the US created this idea to allow them to go to war.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2791732 - 06/14/04 08:45 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

When I say the second world war might never have happened, I mean that when Goebbels and his ilk rose up in the late 20's. (A decade spent in decadence in the UK and US). Stating things like:

'We are just good enough that international capital allows us to fill its money sacks with interest payments.' (Goebbels 'we demand' 1927)

And began speaking in directly racist terms.

Well if the UK and US had stepped in while everyday Germans were desperately looking for an end to misery, and committed themselves to genuinely helping the nation's masses and industries.

(Like they realised they had to after WW2)

Why then would the people have ever listened to the Nazi propaganda? Where would their need and hatred have stemmed from - if their needs had been met and their hatred quelled before it had time to rise?

Hitler would never have made it into the position he did.

I mean obviously it was never going to happen, but it could have so easily. And the whole of Europe and America would have been pleasantly shocked at the fact that help and forgiveness between nations could be real.

Something that must be borne in mind when we consider the deperate and indebted state of many nations in the world today. Nations which equally harbour greater and greater hatred of the 'World Trade' mechanism, designed to keep the status quo.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on some points that I was talking about Saddam, not Kim Jong. When I was talking about the fact that 'he' doesn't have any nukes. I know Kim does, Saddam however seems to have none.

As for removing a man who is a killer of innocents being 'true' and 'just' - Well this might be the case, but it's a shame it doesn't apply to GWB and T.Blair who trumpetted this war as the first that would be without civilian casualties, yet have managed to kill tens of thousands.

Terrorism is actually a very wide ranging word in its definition:
Oxford dictionary definition: 'the use of violence for political aims or to force a government to act, esp because of the fear it causes among the people'

It seems pretty obvious that 'Shock and awe' is a metaphor for 'terror', and killing tens of thousands of innocents is terrorising a people. Maybe we should doctor the dictionary definition so it says what you want.

Yes if only the US military would make sure that aid distribution reached the right people....defending the needs of the undernourished masses when you have a load of supplies for them is quite a good idea. And I mean defending.

And regarding your shroom production analogy of N.korea's Nuclear weapons potential: I take your point. However, even if you have all the best kit, if a 'policeman' sits in the room it's in eyeing it suspiciously...would you not still then look to other sources in your need for the product/components?

Oh, and I quite agree with you, Superman was awesome I loved it!


Edited by CJay (06/14/04 09:54 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2792046 - 06/14/04 12:39 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

No VX nerve gas was ever supplied to Iraq by the US

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas , West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2792711 - 06/14/04 04:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Nope. Nor does the company that made it, or the shippers.




You dont actually believe that though Luvdem if you are honest do you?

Lets say this actually happened and someone close to you was killed. When it came out that some guy down the road sold fertiliser to this person knowing full well what the person intended to do are you telling me you would think the shopkeeper held no responsibility? I dont think so.



I am honest. I do believe just what I said. Did I not, I wouldn't have said it.

No-one can know full well what anyone will do. People say things all the time.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2792997 - 06/14/04 06:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

That is a bullshit article. The US never supplied VX nerve gas to Iraq. If they ever had, you can believe there would be more than a single badly-fact checked article in The Sunday Herald two years ago about it. Type in "supplied VX" into any web search engine and see what you get.

pinky


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2793000 - 06/14/04 06:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Credibility is no object when one wants so badly for his beliefs to be true.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2793585 - 06/15/04 01:25 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Gee thanks.

Your welcome.  Anytime. :wink:

Err Im sure there is some twisted logic in there but I sure cant find. I never claimed Iraq did or didnt have WMD. Before the war I said it had not been proven either way and the evidence did not justify a war It now seems likely that they didnt have WMD and had indeed disarmed as they claimed all along.

If it hadn't been proven either way, then the war was legally justified.  If the ability to produce these agents was retained, then they hadn't disarmed as they claimed all along.  Throwing away the bombs but keeping the factory isn't disarmament. 

Main Entry: dis?arm
Pronunciation: di-'s?rm, -'z?rm, 'di-"s?rm
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English desarmen, literally, to divest of arms, from Middle French desarmer, from Old French, from des- dis- + armer to arm
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 a : to deprive of means, reason, or disposition to be hostile b : to win over
2 a : to divest of arms b : to deprive of a means of attack or defense c : to make harmless
intransitive senses
1 : to lay aside arms
2 : to give up or reduce armed forces


They had to prove they'd disarmed.  They couldn't as they obviously hadn't disarmed. 

If parts or components of WMD compared to complete WMD is no big difference, then although it was claimed Iraq possed WMD when infact it was only the components needed to manufacture them, then that too is no big difference. Therefore, Iraq was guilty of what the Bush admin. accused them of (or no big difference anyway).  Can you see the logic yet?

Oh you think I base ny thoughts of some automatic hatred for the US do you? Yeah it seems to be a commonly held view around here by those who are incapable of criticising the US's actions. As far as im concerned that arguement is basically a shortcut to thinking.

I don't think you have some automatic hatred for the US, I just commented on what I saw.  When you blaimed the US for supplying Saddam with WMD when it was actually components, but then say Iraq had disarmed because only (except for our lone Sarin artillery round)  WMD components have been found, that's hypocrisy.  I don't disagree that components are basically the same thing (though I may disagree with the scope most claim), but I apply that belief to both sides of the fence. 

We were just one of many countries trying get him in our back pocket. He would have aquired them from someone else had we not given them to him, but that still doesn't excuse it.  We shouldn't have.  At the time, it was thought he could be controlled or contained.  When those were sold to Iraq, Iran was the biggest threat to us in that region.  We adopted the policy "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."  That's policy is now obviously discredited, and we'll hopefully not make the same mistake again.  But if it is indeed our fault, then who better to go and fix the problem? 

I'm also quite capable of criticising the US and Bush.  Even though I believe what he did was justified, and it seemed like the best decision, I now wonder which Iraq - pre or post war - was/is the bigger threat.  Other than his tax cut's, there is virutally nothing Bush has done I agree with.  But I see no reason to believe he is dishonest, vengeful, or stupid.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


Edited by HagbardCeline (06/15/04 01:33 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2793730 - 06/15/04 02:28 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

If parts or components of WMD compared to complete WMD is no big difference, then although it was claimed Iraq possed WMD when infact it was only the components needed to manufacture them, then that too is no big difference. Therefore, Iraq was guilty of what the Bush admin. accused them of (or no big difference anyway). Can you see the logic yet?

The difference being when the US was selling them anthrax, VX nerve gas and Botulism Iraq had an active program. That's a little different from a few tubes laying under someones rosebush 15 years later.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2793985 - 06/15/04 06:09 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

You are wrong and you know you are.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2793996 - 06/15/04 06:19 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Selling the parts is not selling the thing.

So merely having the parts doesn't mean one has the thing.

Therefore one cannot be apportioned blame.
Since one does not have the thing, one only has the parts.
And as you said the parts are not the thing.

(you can replace the words parts with components and thing with WMD if you like)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2794042 - 06/15/04 07:23 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Try typing in "us supplied anthrax to iraq" into google. Note it mentions weapon grade anthrax being supplied.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2794057 - 06/15/04 07:36 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If it hadn't been proven either way, then the war was legally justified.




Utter rubbish. The war was wholly unjustified, you dont go to war on a hunch.

As for giving me dictionary definitions your time would be better spent using dictionary.com to double check your spelling.

Quote:

They had to prove they'd disarmed. They couldn't as they obviously hadn't disarmed.




The US chose not to accept the proof Iraq offered that does not mean the US were right and the Iraqi's were lying.

Quote:

but then say Iraq had disarmed because only (except for our lone Sarin artillery round) WMD components have been found




What components, that we know were intended for a WMD program, have been found? source please.

Quote:

At the time, it was thought he could be controlled or contained.




Rice and Powell said he had been effectivley contained in 2002. Then suddenly everything changed.

Quote:

If parts or components of WMD compared to complete WMD is no big difference, then although it was claimed Iraq possed WMD when infact it was only the components needed to manufacture them, then that too is no big difference. Therefore, Iraq was guilty of what the Bush admin. accused them of (or no big difference anyway). Can you see the logic yet?





Again I ask you to show me where we found components in Iraq, since the time they have claimed they have disarmed, that were to be used in a WMD program.

The components sold by the US, in particular the electronics for the Saad 16 missile program were definitely going to be used in a WMD program, the US were aware of that when they sold them. Weapons grade anthrax sold in the 80's was also obviously going to be used in a weapons program.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2794516 - 06/15/04 11:37 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Try typing in "us supplied anthrax to iraq" into google. Note it mentions weapon grade anthrax being supplied.

Does not compute...The US never supplied WMD to Iraq...the US never supplied WMD to Iraq...

:grin:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2801557 - 06/17/04 08:18 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I am honest. I do believe just what I said. Did I not, I wouldn't have said it.

No-one can know full well what anyone will do. People say things all the time.




I call bullshit. Anyone with half a brain would realise that selling weapons to somebody knowing full well what the buyer intends to do with them makes the seller partly responsible as they have the power to prevent the event happening, or at least prevent their involvement in the event.

You are just not willing to admit that this applies to the US too. Weak and dishonest.


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Edited by GazzBut (06/17/04 10:01 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2802051 - 06/17/04 12:40 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Weak and dishonest

Trust luv to always deliver  :smirk:


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2802693 - 06/17/04 04:37 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

And yet you still provide no proof. What a surprise from such a liar.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2802695 - 06/17/04 04:38 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Call bullshit all you like.

It is 100% the responsibility of he or she who commits the actual act.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2804174 - 06/18/04 01:49 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

It is 100% the responsibility of he or she who commits the actual act.

Then you would have had no problem with Saddamm providing anything to help al-qaeda?

Dishonest.


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2804567 - 06/18/04 05:12 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

When you who is unable to refrain fron lying finally learns the meaning of the truth, maybe a claim of dishonesty will mean something. Until then You lack the....

Brains.

Balls.

Or ability to show where I have lied.

Know why the last is true? Because I don't.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/18/04 05:31 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2804667 - 06/18/04 07:31 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

As Alex said you would have no problem with Iraq supplying weapons to Al qaeda?

You dont mind if syria or iran do the same? Yeah right...you are just wholly incapable of admitting you are wrong.


Edited by GazzBut (06/18/04 07:56 AM)


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2806037 - 06/18/04 04:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Believe what you want. The blame goes to those who use the weapons.

I could have a nuke in my garage. It is harmless until it is used.

Unless it falls on my foot and breaks my toes.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2806941 - 06/18/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I think you guys are really holding luv's words to strictly. You keep trying to apply them to a world of black and white when reality tends to be more a blur of gray.

But i understand where you are coming from when you say he is being hypocritical and stubborn. I don't know about you, but the situation seems to be quite clear to me.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2808045 - 06/19/04 03:30 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The blame goes to those who use the weapons.

Dodging and lying till the end.

Here it is again:

Would Saddam be to blame for supplying Al-qaeda with weapons?

(I'm expecting dishonesty. Surprise me)


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2808310 - 06/19/04 06:32 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Asked and answered. And you wouldn't know dishonesty if it struck you in the face.

You're a liar, short and simple.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2808395 - 06/19/04 09:05 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So you've been saying... :rolleyes:

Funny how you didn't reply to the other thread where I asked you to please post your legendary "list" of my "lies".

I'm not holding my breath.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2808413 - 06/19/04 09:31 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Certainly the vast bulk of his [Saddam's] abuses took place when he was bosom buddies with Reagan and Bush Sr. The right-wingers who talk about him "killing hundreds of thousands" always neglect to mention that he did most of that in the 80's with the full approval of the US government of the time. 




Another baseless statement perhaps?

Care to back this up?

I'm sure you've made far more but to list them all would take more time than mapping the human genome.. :blush:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2808467 - 06/19/04 10:50 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Believe what you want. The blame goes to those who use the weapons.

I could have a nuke in my garage. It is harmless until it is used.




wriggle wriggle...just admit it luv, if it turned out that Iraq had been supplying arms to Al-qaeda you would believe that was justification for the war. Or are you telling me you never suggested Iraq had been involved in supporting terrorism?
Does this now mean you see nothing wrong with Saddam giving money to the families of suicide bombers?


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2810402 - 06/20/04 04:29 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Care to back this up?

Read up on when the mass graves found in Iraq dated from.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2810764 - 06/20/04 10:51 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
And began speaking in directly racist terms.




Racist? Well, thats a great reason for starting a war! We'll let the Kurds know about that. How much do I want to bet you won't even know who the Kurds are?
Quote:


Well if the UK and US had stepped in while everyday Germans were desperately looking for an end to misery, and committed themselves to genuinely helping the nation's masses and industries.




I'm thinking that the post WWI agreements that the Germans signed were the reasons that Germany was in such bad state. Why would we have helped them out? wouldn't that be intruding onto their matters?
Quote:


Why then would the people have ever listened to the Nazi propaganda? Where would their need and hatred have stemmed from - if their needs had been met and their hatred quelled before it had time to rise?




Newsflash: Not everything that the Nazis did was racist.
Quote:


I mean obviously it was never going to happen, but it could have so easily.




I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Quote:


As for removing a man who is a killer of innocents being 'true' and 'just' - Well this might be the case, but it's a shame it doesn't apply to GWB and T.Blair who trumpetted this war as the first that would be without civilian casualties, yet have managed to kill tens of thousands.




People die in war, thats just kind of how it is. More innocents died in WWII than died in Pearl Harbor, but that isn't a very effective way of determining the justness of a war, now does it?
Quote:


It seems pretty obvious that 'Shock and awe' is a metaphor for 'terror', and killing tens of thousands of innocents is terrorising a people. Maybe we should doctor the dictionary definition so it says what you want.




we didn't intentionally kill tens of thousands (That number goes up weekly in newspeak I notice). Scaring someone isn't terrorism.
Quote:


Yes if only the US military would make sure that aid distribution reached the right people....defending the needs of the undernourished masses when you have a load of supplies for them is quite a good idea. And I mean defending.




So the way to avoid using our troops on foreign soil is to use our troops on foreign soil? Thats simply brilliant. Maybe some starving near-third world nations would allow us to come in and help. Maybe we could just tell N Korea that we are sending in the First MEU to help get food out to their people and that we'll "defend" any food convoys that are over there. Thats simply brilliant.
Quote:


And regarding your shroom production analogy of N.korea's Nuclear weapons potential: I take your point. However, even if you have all the best kit, if a 'policeman' sits in the room it's in eyeing it suspiciously...would you not still then look to other sources in your need for the product/components?




For the x'th time, NORTH KOREAS GOAL ISNT A MASSIVE NUCLEAR ARSENAL. It's much better for them to rattle their sabers every so often and have us give them more money to not make the nukes. They don't care if they have any, their regular artillery could kill a few million S Koreans in an hour. It's just their way of asking for help.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2810792 - 06/20/04 11:07 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Not everything that the Nazis did was racist.

So what? Not everything Saddam was cruel either. No-one can be nothing but cruel.

People die in war, thats just kind of how it is

Don't give it the dignity of calling it a war. It was mass slaughter by one massively more advanced country on a third world state.

we didn't intentionally kill tens of thousands

Dropping bombs on someone isn't intentionally killing them?

Scaring someone isn't terrorism.

And yet the UN call launching illegal wars of aggresion "the ultimate war crime".

They don't care if they have any, their regular artillery could kill a few million S Koreans in an hour. It's just their way of asking for help.

Come again?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2811052 - 06/20/04 01:26 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So what? Not everything Saddam was cruel either. No-one can be nothing but cruel.




So basically you mean to say "OK, you are right, but heaven forbid I not bring up Saddam at least once in a thread", right?
Quote:


Don't give it the dignity of calling it a war. It was mass slaughter by one massively more advanced country on a third world state.




I wish that my digicam was a high enough megapixel that you could see that I do, in fact, own the worlds smallest violin.  Not only do I own it, but i'm playing it right now! Just for you!  Wasn't Saddam's army the best in the region? If I look back, are you going to be one of those telling "us" how hard we'll have it in Afghanistan, that the Russkies tried for 10 years and never won.
Quote:


Dropping bombs on someone isn't intentionally killing them?




LDS Sure has you pegged :smile:
Quote:


And yet the UN call launching illegal wars of aggresion "the ultimate war crime".




What, in the UN's eyes, would make for a "legal war of aggression"?
Quote:


Come again?



Old age, can't do it that fast.

I'm just going to reply to your points with the same assininery that you use. Don't ever expect an answer from me on anything, since you never manage to do that courtesy for anyone else.  Maybe I could post you a link from an obviously slanted ultra-right-wing group and have it as my "proof". You are more proof that we shouldn't get involved in others wars. Hitler would have found a nice lil spot for granny and grampy, right under a V? rocket.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2811072 - 06/20/04 01:33 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So basically you mean to say "OK, you are right, but heaven forbid I not bring up Saddam at least once in a thread", right?

Wrong.

Wasn't Saddam's army the best in the region?

No, it wasn't.

It was about as big a threat as the Hare Krishnas. And they've already got our airports...

LDS Sure has you pegged

Sure he does TOYK  :smile:

What, in the UN's eyes, would make for a "legal war of aggression"? 

A UN vote?

Don't ever expect an answer from me on anything

I never have. Why would I change now?

Maybe I could post you a link from an obviously slanted ultra-right-wing group and have it as my "proof".

Anything would be better than tiresome flames.

You are more proof that we shouldn't get involved in others wars. Hitler would have found a nice lil spot for granny and grampy, right under a V? rocket.

I presume this is your attempt to act like a man?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2813286 - 06/21/04 08:26 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps it wasn't clear enough...

Quote:

Certainly the vast bulk of his [Saddam's] abuses took place when he was bosom buddies with Reagan and Bush Sr. The right-wingers who talk about him "killing hundreds of thousands" always neglect to mention that he did most of that in the 80's with the full approval of the US government of the time.




Now backup this statement with some credible evidence or admit its false.

Quote:

And yet the UN call launching illegal wars of aggresion "the ultimate war crime".




The UN says a lot of things


Quote:

Don't give it the dignity of calling it a war. It was mass slaughter by one massively more advanced country on a third world state.




war -
A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
The period of such conflict.
The techniques and procedures of war; military science.

Regardless of the sense injustice you feel, it was still a war...


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