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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789552 - 06/13/04 10:11 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

That's what I thought.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789556 - 06/13/04 10:14 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

:crymeariver:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789585 - 06/13/04 10:59 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fertilizer can be used as a bomb, does that mean if you sell fertilizer you've sold a bomb?

Didn't think so. Selling electronics is not selling WMD's.




Read the article and then come back to me. It clearly states the electronics were marked for Saad-16, the Iraqi weapons program.

Now say someone walks into a shop and says to the guy behind the counter "Hey gimme some fertiliser, i wanna make some bombs" and he gives him the fertiliser, in your opinion has the shopkeep done anything wrong? Does he bear any responsibility for the people killed by bombs made with his fertiliser?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2789592 - 06/13/04 11:10 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Does he bear any responsibility for the people killed by bombs made with his fertiliser?



Nope. Nor does the company that made it, or the shippers.

The blame falls on those who make and use the bomb.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789718 - 06/13/04 12:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So what was all that hysteria about the "threat" of Saddam giving terrorists the materials to make a nuclear bomb? If he'd done it you wouldn't have considered him responsible?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789738 - 06/13/04 01:02 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So what was all that hysteria about the "threat" of Saddam giving terrorists the materials to make a nuclear bomb? If he'd done it you wouldn't have considered him responsible?



*Sigh*

I can't believe you need this to be explained to you. The electronics can be used in a missle. The missle does not have to be fitted with WMD's.

The fertilizer can be used as fertilizer. It does not need to be used as a bomb.

Now... if there is a use for weapons grade nuclear material other than a bomb, I'm not aware of it. I suppose terrorists could use nuclear material in an attempt to make some kind of cell phone power packs, or a home-made x-ray machine..... bit that doesn't seem too likely now does it?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2789741 - 06/13/04 01:04 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I see..so what other use has the anthrax and botulism, VX nerve gas the US companies were supplying Saddam with?

The fertilizer can be used as fertilizer. It does not need to be used as a bomb.

Even tho the guy has just told you "Give me fertilizer to make a bomb". Idiocy.


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789760 - 06/13/04 01:12 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well hell Alpo, I'm sure you've told people you were actually going to read books you've bought.

Merely stating you're going to use something doesn't mean you really will. If you go to a liquor store and buy a bottle while stating your going to get drunk, and the clerk sells it to you whereupon you drink it, drive, and kill someone, that doesn't make the clerk responsible for your behavior.

(maybe you can still get your money back on those books)


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/13/04 01:13 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2791077 - 06/13/04 11:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

Youd love that to be true wouldnt you Pinky?!

It is true. The US has never sold Iraq any WMDs.

The electronics sold by US firms to Iraq pre-Gulf War I were not WMDs, they were components to be used in the development of guided missiles. Even after the 1991 conditional ceasefire was signed, Iraq was not required to destroy all their missiles -- just those with a range longer than 150 miles (or 150 kilometers -- I can't be bothered to check right now).

The same article you linked points out France's selling Iraq an entire nuclear program, and Germany selling them a complete chemical weapons program, but hey, that's cool because neither France nor Germany is the US, so no harm done.

pinky


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2791148 - 06/14/04 12:11 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Parts of WMD or complete WMDs its hardly a big difference is it..especially when you know full well that the equipment you are selling is to be used in a missile program. Perhaps you would care to give me you view on this kind of hypocrisy?




I'll give you my view on your kind of hypocrisy.

If parts of WMD or complete WMD is hardly a big difference, then the claims that Iraq had WMD should no longer be questioned.

Your kind of hypocrisy says it's no difference when you get to blaim the US for supplying it, but it is a huge difference when you get to blaim the US for it not being there.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2791175 - 06/14/04 12:21 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

The WMD arn't in Iraq.

Then where are they? There is no credible proof of the destruction of the stocks Iraq was known to have. Significant quantities remain unaccounted for to this day. Are they in Jordan now? Syria? Iran?

No scientists or workers who have worked on them in years can be found.

Quite a few scientists known to have been working on Iraq's special weaponry programs have been murdered. Probably just a coincidence.

If we accept Iraq had a US supplied WMD program in the 80's...

Which they didn't.

... then the WMD they produced are clearly long gone.

Gone where?

Clearly they aren't all gone. I note you and every other poster here who wishes Hussein was still in power completely ignores the binary sarin shell found as part of an IED last month. Let me ask you, Alex (though why I bother I don't know, since you will never answer this question anyway), do you believe that the guy who built that IED somehow managed to find the only undestroyed binary sarin shell left in all Iraq? How the hell did he know it was a sarin shell, since there were no distinguishing marks on it whatsoever? Which ammo dump did he retrieve it from?

Except that it was done with the full knowledge of UN weapons inspectors...

Incorrect. The entire history of the UN inspectors' experience in Iraq was one long struggle to get access and "full knowledge".

... who said Iraq had been 98% disarmed...

Incorrect again. One inspector said that. Other figures I have read say anywhere from 90 to 95%. Even assuming for the sake of argument that only 2% of the stocks Iraq was known to possess remains unaccounted for -- leaving aside entirely any undeclared stocks -- that leaves literally thousands of pounds of goo that could be anywhere by now. And as the history of the inspections clearly shows, the amount of the stuff he was known to have was an ever-increasing number. "Hey, Hussein, what's this stuff over here? That wasn't on the list!" "Oops -- so sorry, yes, I forgot about that little pile. Oh, well, add it to the list if you must." This happened on more than one occasion, as you well know.

But again, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that eventually Hussein did declare everything of his own free will, and that absolutely no other undeclared stocks were left. I repeat, that missing two per cent is a substantial amount. Where is it?

You still don't get this do you pinky. It isn't about burying tractor-trailers. That was bullshit put out to fool the gullible.

Gullible? You are saying I am gullible for pointing out that it's no big trick to hide a couple of shipping containers full of VX and/or sarin in a country the size of Iraq? The same country where several entire jet fighters were unearthed which had been buried under sand? Uh-huh.

It's about hiding the heavy industrial plant, scientists and countless workers that must have been involved.

So sorry, but you don't need a "heavy industrial plant" and "countless" workers to churn out a few thousand liters of nerve gas. Two chemists and a few lab assistants working with just standard laboratory glassware in a university lab could turn out a few liters a day with no sweat. But as for industrial plant, it doesn't strike you as odd how many "pesticide" plants have been found in Iraq? Especially pesticide plants found inside military compounds? Iraq surely must have had one gigantic cockroach problem pre-war, I guess.

Do you still believe there are WMD in Iraq and that we just havn't found them yet?

Here's how it works, Alex. I don't answer your questions until you answer at least one of mine. Do you believe Hussein destroyed all his stocks and his production facilities? Yes or no?

Even David Kay - Bush's handpicked man - sent in to find the WMD says people who still hold your view are "really delusional".

I know you like to frantically search for snippets of conversation using Google and then hold them up as the be-all and end-all of a given person's views. Fortunately, someone else recently posted excerpts from Kay's report showing just how much Kay discovered of Hussein's chemical weapons program that still remained.

As Kay himself states, the fact that he was unable to find any stocks during his time in Iraq doesn't mean the stocks weren't shipped elsewhere before he got there.

Bottom line is, you are willing to take Hussein's word that he destroyed all that stuff, in secret, without telling anyone or keeping any records, without using the destruction as a tool to get the sanctions lifted. If he had been able to show they were destroyed, he'd still be running Iraq today rather than picking lice out of his beard in a prison cell.

Let me ask you another question (knowing full well you won't answer it) -- if Hussein actually destroyed the stuff, why in the world did he not take credit for doing so? What possible reason would he have for destroying it and then doing everything in his power to make it appear that he hadn't? What possible benefit was there to him for following such a bizarre course?

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2791472 - 06/14/04 03:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well hell Alpo..blah..blah

Nice dodge.

I asked you what other use the botulism and VX nerve gas the US supplied Saddam with had. Any ideas?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Xlea321]
    #2791536 - 06/14/04 03:53 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

No VX nerve gas was ever supplied to Iraq by the US. Cultures of botulism were obtained by Iraq from US firms. So what? Cultures of botulism can be purchased by just about anyone from thousands of different sources.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2791699 - 06/14/04 07:54 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'll give you my view on your kind of hypocrisy.




Gee thanks.

Quote:

If parts of WMD or complete WMD is hardly a big difference, then the claims that Iraq had WMD should no longer be questioned.




Err Im sure there is some twisted logic in there but I sure cant find. I never claimed Iraq did or didnt have WMD. Before the war I said it had not been proven either way and the evidence did not justify a war It now seems likely that they didnt have WMD and had indeed disarmed as they claimed all along. I

Quote:

Your kind of hypocrisy says it's no difference when you get to blaim the US for supplying it, but it is a huge difference when you get to blaim the US for it not being there.




Oh you think I base ny thoughts of some automatic hatred for the US do you? Yeah it seems to be a commonly held view around here by those who are incapable of criticising the US's actions. As far as im concerned that arguement is basically a shortcut to thinking.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2791705 - 06/14/04 08:01 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It is true. The US has never sold Iraq any WMDs.




It may be true that the US never sold completed WMD to Iraq but it is 100% true that the US sold components for WMD. The Saad-16 program was a nuclear program and the US sold key components to Iraq for that program.

Quote:

France's selling Iraq an entire nuclear program, and Germany selling them a complete chemical weapons program, but hey, that's cool because neither France nor Germany is the US, so no harm done.




I have always said the French and the Germans are hypocrites and that the only reason they didnt support the war was to further their own agendas. I have also criticised heavily the UK's involvement in Iraq. So to accuse me of simply being a US basher shows that you dont really pay any attention to the positions of others on this board.

It seems to me that alot of people around here, yourself included, blindly back the US government's foreign policy whatever they do and whoever it effects.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2791707 - 06/14/04 08:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nope. Nor does the company that made it, or the shippers.




You dont actually believe that though Luvdem if you are honest do you?

Lets say this actually happened and someone close to you was killed. When it came out that some guy down the road sold fertiliser to this person knowing full well what the person intended to do are you telling me you would think the shopkeeper held no responsibility? I dont think so.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2791718 - 06/14/04 08:17 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There is no credible proof of the destruction of the stocks Iraq was known to have. Significant quantities remain unaccounted for to this day. Are they in Jordan now? Syria? Iran?





Just because the US does not accept the proof offered by the Iraqi's it does not mean that they were lying.

Lets be honest, the US doesnt seem to have a very good grasp of the concept of credible proof anyway.

Quote:

Quite a few scientists known to have been working on Iraq's special weaponry programs have been murdered. Probably just a coincidence.




How many? I would imagine there were hundreds of scientists in Iraq. Are you implying all those with any knowledge have been killed? If so Id love to see a source for such a wild assertion.

Quote:

If we accept Iraq had a US supplied WMD program in the 80's...

Which they didn't.




Im most interested to see if you will admit you are wrong on this point.

Quote:

I note you and every other poster here who wishes Hussein was still in power




I think you will find most people agree that it will probabaly benefit the Iraqi's that Hussein is no longer in power. However, people object to wars being waged based on lies to further US dominance of the middle east. I dont know why Im explaining this to you again as by now you should know this full well.

Quote:

What possible reason would he have for destroying it and then doing everything in his power to make it appear that he hadn't? What possible benefit was there to him for following such a bizarre course?






Repeatedly claiming to the world that Iraq had disarmed and allowing inspectors in to confirm this is hardly "doing everything in his power to make it appear that he hadn't" is it?


As far as Im concerned the question of whether Hussein did or did not fully disarm as he said is indeterminate at this time. I think we can determine that Iraq did not pose a significant threat to world peace and that the US created this idea to allow them to go to war.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2791732 - 06/14/04 08:45 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

When I say the second world war might never have happened, I mean that when Goebbels and his ilk rose up in the late 20's. (A decade spent in decadence in the UK and US). Stating things like:

'We are just good enough that international capital allows us to fill its money sacks with interest payments.' (Goebbels 'we demand' 1927)

And began speaking in directly racist terms.

Well if the UK and US had stepped in while everyday Germans were desperately looking for an end to misery, and committed themselves to genuinely helping the nation's masses and industries.

(Like they realised they had to after WW2)

Why then would the people have ever listened to the Nazi propaganda? Where would their need and hatred have stemmed from - if their needs had been met and their hatred quelled before it had time to rise?

Hitler would never have made it into the position he did.

I mean obviously it was never going to happen, but it could have so easily. And the whole of Europe and America would have been pleasantly shocked at the fact that help and forgiveness between nations could be real.

Something that must be borne in mind when we consider the deperate and indebted state of many nations in the world today. Nations which equally harbour greater and greater hatred of the 'World Trade' mechanism, designed to keep the status quo.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on some points that I was talking about Saddam, not Kim Jong. When I was talking about the fact that 'he' doesn't have any nukes. I know Kim does, Saddam however seems to have none.

As for removing a man who is a killer of innocents being 'true' and 'just' - Well this might be the case, but it's a shame it doesn't apply to GWB and T.Blair who trumpetted this war as the first that would be without civilian casualties, yet have managed to kill tens of thousands.

Terrorism is actually a very wide ranging word in its definition:
Oxford dictionary definition: 'the use of violence for political aims or to force a government to act, esp because of the fear it causes among the people'

It seems pretty obvious that 'Shock and awe' is a metaphor for 'terror', and killing tens of thousands of innocents is terrorising a people. Maybe we should doctor the dictionary definition so it says what you want.

Yes if only the US military would make sure that aid distribution reached the right people....defending the needs of the undernourished masses when you have a load of supplies for them is quite a good idea. And I mean defending.

And regarding your shroom production analogy of N.korea's Nuclear weapons potential: I take your point. However, even if you have all the best kit, if a 'policeman' sits in the room it's in eyeing it suspiciously...would you not still then look to other sources in your need for the product/components?

Oh, and I quite agree with you, Superman was awesome I loved it!


Edited by CJay (06/14/04 09:54 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2792046 - 06/14/04 12:39 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

No VX nerve gas was ever supplied to Iraq by the US

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas , West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2792711 - 06/14/04 04:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Nope. Nor does the company that made it, or the shippers.




You dont actually believe that though Luvdem if you are honest do you?

Lets say this actually happened and someone close to you was killed. When it came out that some guy down the road sold fertiliser to this person knowing full well what the person intended to do are you telling me you would think the shopkeeper held no responsibility? I dont think so.



I am honest. I do believe just what I said. Did I not, I wouldn't have said it.

No-one can know full well what anyone will do. People say things all the time.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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