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Offlinespacedragon
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Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace
    #2759574 - 06/03/04 04:57 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Hello,
I just wanted to quote a wonderful Zen Buddhist monk named Thich Nhat Hanh: ?The course America has chosen since 9/11 has not made the world safer or more peaceful. Only deep listening and gentle communication, he tells American leaders, can remove the wrong perceptions that are the foundation of violence.?

Many of the terrorists in the world are in government positions ? and they?re just so ignorant they don?t even know the harm they?re doing. Some actually DO know the harm they?re doing and can?t see the inter-being we experience as a global community & will certainly suffer greatly in the afterlife for their evil doings.

Thich Nhat Hanh goes on about the current situation in Iraq ?The only way for America to free itself from this situation is to help build the United Nations into a real body of peace so that the United Nations will take over the problem of Iraq and of the Middle East. America is powerful enough to make this happen. America should allow other nations to contribute positively to building the United Nations into a true organization for peace with enough authority to do it?s job. To me, that is the only way out of our current situation.?

The lessons I?ve received from this man are immeasurable & I recommend all his written works.

-Adam


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: spacedragon]
    #2759609 - 06/03/04 05:10 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

So then, what do we do about the terrorists that are killing us? Let them be?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Redo]
    #2759642 - 06/03/04 05:35 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
So then, what do we do about the terrorists that are killing us? Let them be?



Convert them to Buddhist's.







Oh yeah.... and wave a magic wand.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2759752 - 06/03/04 07:25 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

There has only been one (allegedly middle-east) terrorist act in the USA - ever

The USA government has trained and condonned terrorists with a far greater frequency than that. Even good ole JFK sent terrorists into Cuba, starting the chain reaction that led to the Cuban missile crisis. And what is unprovoked invasion except for terror(ism) on the grandest scale.

Perhaps if the USA and other bullying intrusive Western governments just

stop

screwing with other countries and their economies. Perhaps if they went back on their age old policy in the middle east - which has been to provoke wars and supply weapons to the region seeing how much oil can be robbed in the meantime.(Classic divide and rule tactics).
Maybe terrorists would not then be created.

Who makes the terrorists? The governments of the UK, USA and other western powers with their heartless foreign policy.

I don't see terrorists from the middle east attacking any nations who haven't f**ked with their home nation(s)....I wonder why?

whisper words of wisdom - let it be, let it be........

If the USA and other so called 'developed' countries had traded fairly for middle east oil from the beginning, if they had not supplied crazy amounts of weapons, and if they had not supported cruel regimes - there would be no retalliation now.
The simplicity of it is astounding.


Wouldn't you agree that supplying arms to small time dictators is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane)
Wouldn't you say that supporting dictators until they decide you are not pulling their strings, then making them out to suddenly be a bad guy even though they are governing the same way they have done for years (with your support)is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane)
Wouldn't you say that attacking nations for the acts of small renegade groups of people is pretty morally lacking? (besides being insane) I mean why not declare war on the nation Ireland because the IRA are holed up there? doh!

And why pick Saddam and Afganistan? I mean N.Korea brags about it's WMD, is run by a cruel dictator......oh but there's no oil there.....
and they have real WMD.......eeek!
All dictators are equal under the law - except Saddam. Strange that...

The UN was set up to stop wars like this happening, perhaps if the UN was respected and not used and abused by its most powerful member - wars like this wouldn't happen.

Everyone's scratching their heads wondering how to bring peace - what to do.

How about - stop

I mean 'mission accomplished' - a year ago - doh! Look at all the peace that has been brought to the region.

peace is peace - not war


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2759766 - 06/03/04 07:43 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

We learn by our mistakes CJay, and we dont train terrorists to bomb embasseys and blow up things. We like political revolutions to favor us :smile:. And alot of arms around the world are AK's, that isnt too American, I dont see them with m16's ever.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Redo]
    #2759803 - 06/03/04 08:18 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I understand that history is a process of evolution of opposing energies that cannot be avoided. The story is the story and we must live it as it is told. there's no avoiding that.
It's a pretty kool story anyhows. If harsh at times. What an adventure! The birth of mankind, a technological animal, as it happens.

I understand that all bodies have interests and act to protect them.
It's natural really, but a bit of lateral thinking, a paradigm shift; which is the only real solution, has an incredible amount of inertia to overcome.


However when one purports to have standards, yet one lives a doublestandard, well I think one leaves oneself up for criticism.

Sure that's just about all of us on some level or other.
But here we discuss, and so we discus.

It's unavoidable that we must act out this drama of life for the sake of the time-line.

But I haven't heard of many AK's going off on American soil - aimed at the establishment.

And there's a hell of a lot of M16's going off in other people's countries aimed at their establishments.

As for learning from mistakes - hmmmm, if that's been done, it's been done in a way I would never have conceived.

the story continues....


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2759820 - 06/03/04 08:29 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well, its kinda hard to get AK's through the boarders here (except Mexico maybe), and yes, we are at wartime, so our m16's do go off. And we are not aiming at their establishments =b.

Yea, truth is weirder then fiction still :laugh:


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OfflineHillBilly777
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2759893 - 06/03/04 09:34 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

  "There has only been one (allegedly middle-east) terrorist act in the USA - ever"




Cjay, first of all, get out of here with this "allegedly" crap.  There wasn't anyone named Bob Smith or Mary Jones involved in the attacks on the US on Sept. 11, 2001, but there was damn sure a Muhammad or two.  "Allegedly"... :rolleyes:  Secondly, there was a previous Islamist attack on the US, at the same building!  The only difference in the earlier attack and what resulted in the second one was a mere 50 feet; had that bomb-laden truck been fifty feet farther into the building, there would have been no WTC. 

Additionally, while those were the two most notable attacks IN the US, there have been a number of attacks ON the US overseas, notably: The USS Cole, a number of US Embassy bombings, the Iran hostage situation, the killing of Daniel Pearl, the beheading of Nick Berg, etc.  Militant islamists hate us because of who we are, not because we're mean ol' bullies, but because we are different, because we reject their way of life.  These people are fascists, plain and simple: they want a world in their image, or no world. 

Have you ever read the Hamas covenant? http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm  Here's an interesting quote from it: 
Quote:

':peace:  initiatives,  and  so-called  peaceful  solutions  and

international conferences are in contradiction to the  principles  of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the  infidels  as  arbitrators  in  the  lands  of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem  except  by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)





Last I checked we weren't installing Jews or Christians as permanent leaders over these areas, but Muslims.  Christ, look at the new president of Iraq!  If he's not a muslim, I'm not an American.  Anyways, isn't that a great one: peace initiatives contradict the Islamic Resistance Movement.  *shakes head*  There isn't much in there about the mean ol' infidels just letting them be, only conquest for the glory of Allah.  Maybe they're way off, but they DO claim to represent the ideals of most Islamofascist groups.  What irks me the most is that they give us two choices:  1) Convert  2)Die  There is no "leave us alone" in there, either convert or die, and you say stop?!?  Fuck that...you can have your prayer-rug, gimmie a gun.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: spacedragon]
    #2760284 - 06/03/04 12:09 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Yup. Deep listening and gentle communication are certainly working well for Buddhists in Thailand:

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=521599§ion=news

Thich Nhat Hanh may be a nice guy but his "solutions" ignore reality.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2760301 - 06/03/04 12:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It's awful hard to imagine how they could have worse consequences than Bush's "solutions".

What "reality" was Bush addressing by invading Iraq?


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HillBilly777]
    #2760367 - 06/03/04 12:35 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

'1) Convert 2)Die There is no "leave us alone" in there,'

Sounds like GW's philosophy when approaching the selected regimes from the middle-east he opposes.

'look at the new president of Iraq! If he's not a muslim, I'm not an American'
Exactly - Both of you represent your societies from within your societies.
Saddam himself ran a remarkably secular society for the middle east, much to the dismay of many fundamentalists.

'Cjay, first of all, get out of here with this "allegedly" crap'
Sure I must say I share your feelings, however I have some doubts remaining, enhanced by the forcing of war and impotising of the UN. 'Middle east' is a sub-continent, that's a big arena when we are talking about a handful of terrorists. They are still a terrorist group, not a sub-continent, and should really be treated as such.
I just find it odd that the retaliation has been so poorly aimed, and so widely destructive when the intelligence was supposedly so good.

OK there was one other attempt to blow up the WTC - you got me there for sure. Once again by terrorists, not nation states, not subcontinents.

'the HAMAS,

is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the

territories under Israeli control.'
Got that off the link you sent through - note they describe themselves as 'an extremist fundamentalist' organisation. They are not the mainstream. I am sure extremist right wing organisations in the USA are equally as fascist. Also note they are in their eyes under the control of mean ol' infidels who will not let them be, because they have carved their homeland into a new country just half a century ago. The wound is pretty fresh.
I think terorist attacks are to be abhorred, but I can in some sense see why Palestinians in Israel feel so oppresed.

In response to Redo: 'Well, its kinda hard to get AK's through the boarders here (except Mexico maybe), and yes, we are at wartime, so our m16's do go off. And we are not aiming at their establishments =b'.
Sorry my grammar was poor, I should have used past tense really I suppose. Both the Afgan and Iraqi establishments were targetted with M16s and the like. Establishments which had as much right to exist as any other that has not been targetted. And I think we all know who Saddam used to buy the juiciest bit of his armoury off. The USA and UK are the world's largest arms exporters. Kinda weird thing to sell to people you don't trust, from a religion you don't trust.

At any rate, I agree that in this story we live out - of the world - the inevitable is the drama. Drama, as my old drama teacher used to tell me, is conflict. read any good book, watch any good play, teasing the best plot out of opposing energies is the essence of a good story.

Hence our situation - pretty dramatic! And one Hell of a story.

I know a stop will not be reached because it is not in the equation right now. This part of the story is far too dramatic. But to stop would stop all the pain.

There's no stoppin it - we're on the rollercoaster now! But that doesn't stop a wider frame of vision.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Phred]
    #2760416 - 06/03/04 12:51 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yup. Deep listening and gentle communication are certainly working well for Buddhists in Thailand




yeah, that's what i was thinking, except i was thinking tibet---oh wait i mean China --Tibet doesn't exist anymore. :shake:

but all that shit about trying to put this situation into black and white terms, muslims trying to convert us, is just wrong.  youve listened too much to bush and his rhetoric, this situation is just not that simple.  osama himself talked about the u.s. presence in saudi arabia, not that there were not enough muslims and too many christians. and most importantly: where did they attack?  did they attack the vatican? a bunch of churches?  No, they attacked the buildings that symbolize our global economic dominance, the building that symbolizes our military dominance and supposedly were going to attack a building symbolizing our politics (white house or congress). <------ALL secular.


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InvisibleSteinM
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Tao]
    #2760489 - 06/03/04 01:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:

muslims trying to convert us, is just wrong.  youve listened too much to bush




When did Bush say Muslims were trying to convert us?  I might have missed that statement but a link to the quote would be great :smile:


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OfflineTao
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Stein]
    #2760506 - 06/03/04 01:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry, that was a bit unclear. I was referring to Hillbilly's
Quote:

What irks me the most is that they give us two choices: 1) Convert 2)Die There is no "leave us alone" in there, either convert or die




and by referring to bush, i meant the way he puts everything into simplistic black and white "they are a member of the axis of EVIL" "they hate our freedom" etc.


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InvisibleSteinM
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Tao]
    #2760523 - 06/03/04 01:27 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

My bad.


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OfflineHillBilly777
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2761465 - 06/03/04 11:02 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Cjay, I completely agree, it is terrorists doing this, not nation-states, but these terrorists all have one thing in common: fundamentalist Islam. This ties in with my response to Tao: Tell me Tao, if this conflict's roots are not in religion, then why is "Infidel" used to describe Americans in "Muslim" (religious word here) land? And why is Allah the first guy to be mentioned when these infidels die?(another non-secular idea here) Granted we also do use God often in reflecting on our successes, but couple that with thinking of your enemy as infidels, and you're talking about a VERY different mindset.

Again, Cjay, on hamas = extremist fundamentalist organization. I completely agree, Hamas does not = mainstream Islam, but I would certainly argue that they do fall close to the middle line of the fundamentalist/jihadist Islam that we're currently at war with. I challenge you to show me a fundamentalist group that is equally as "fascist" that uses the same means to push their agenda.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: Redo]
    #2761534 - 06/03/04 11:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
So then, what do we do about the terrorists that are killing us? Let them be?




Remove all U.S. military presence from the Arabian peninsula and the Muslim world, halt military aid towards Israel, hand Iraq over to the U.N. and remove coalition from Iraq, discontinue the support for corrupt Muslim regimes.

This is a religious issue - and the ignorance of literalist Christian politicians in the United States in the last 70 years has created this bloody clash between Christians and Muslims for the first time since the crusades.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HillBilly777]
    #2761600 - 06/03/04 11:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"Infidel" was a word even used by the great Sufi Saint Maulana Jalal al-Din [RUMI] - it was a word used (by him and the Prophet Muhammad alike) to describe those outside the religious idea who reject God - by tongue and heart, and describe the infidelity of those who have turned their backs on the Beloved (God/Allah); just as someone who betrays the love of their spouse is also an "infidel", and well, guilty of infidelity. It's a God-is-Love thing. Today the word is somewhat of an isult in the context it's constantly used in.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761606 - 06/03/04 11:35 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Zahid, we went to war against Iraq over 10 years ago because they invaded one of our allies in Kuwait. That war technically never ended. We had a cessation of hostilities, and Sadaam Hussien agreed to disarm his weapons programs. He failed to comply with UN mandates and his own agreements. He gassed hundreds of thousands of his own people. He tried to assassinate a US President. We still didn't take the fucker out even after all that, which I think is amazing. Then 9-11 happened on American soil, and we had to put 3000 of our own people in the ground. I think that changed the way we look at things. Sadaam was an evil man, and he got what is coming to him. The UN wasn't about to do anything about it, and we did.

People look at D-Day 60 years later, and realize that what those brave men did changed the world. 60 years from now, Iraq will be one of the greatest nations in the world in my opinion. It is just a guess. I think their economy ranked around 200 before the war, which is not impressive. Someday they will break into the top 20, and it will be largely because of the United States of America had the guts to do what is right. They already have critical infrastructure and a literate people. They possess mineral wealth in their oil deposits that can spur the economy. All they are missing is freedom.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761651 - 06/03/04 11:44 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Which is why the United States needs to do something about the U.N. to improve and reform it.

I'm afraid 9/11 and Bush's wars have officially launched the second clashing of Christianity and Islam. Every Muslim and Christian I have met have been good and compassionate people as they learned from their faiths - politically though, one is at odds with the other to the point many support the 'military actions' of their 'armed leaders'; Muslims alike who support armed resistance in Iraq against Coalition soldiers and Christians alike who support the invasion of Iraq.

The War Against Terror has done nothing but enrage the Muslim world, which leads many Muslims to conclude it is a War Against Islam on a subconscious level among the minds of western politicians of Judea-Christian background.


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