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Another Nazi-USA Article
    #1201469 -

Have a P.A.T.R.I.O.T.I.C. day...it's can be sooooo hard to admit it sometimes...



In Nazi Germany at this time of year, people freely shopped in large department stores for gifts for family and friends. The streets were full of traffic. It was "business as usual" for most of the citizens. While in the colonial states conquered by the Nazis, and in the concentrations camps for Jews, gays and communists, life was a living nightmare of dehumanization and human-rights violations.

In the United States today, people freely shop in large department stores for gifts, and the streets are full of traffic. While in our most recent victim states of Afghanistan, Iraq under murderous sanctions, Argentina after engineering its economic collapse, and Colombia under U.S. military aid for repression, life is a living nightmare of dehumanization and human-rights violations.

But what once separated the United States from Nazi Germany was the protection of civil liberties for American citizens. People of Germany had no rights and did not care. Those few who did care were so terrified of their government that they did not dare to speak out. Those who did speak out were declared "enemy agents" and sent to concentration camps.



Today, people of the United States have given up their rights through the "Patriot Act," the "Homeland Security Act" and the Pentagon's new system of "Total Information Awareness." The astonishing thing about this "land of the free" is that most Americans now have no effective rights and do not care.

As long as they are free to shop in department stores and have traffic in the streets (with automobiles burning oil stolen from dying Iraqi children), they do not care. And to a greater degree every day, those few who do care about our liberties and rights are too terrified of our government to speak out.

The so-called "Patriot Act" expanded our government's secret search and wiretapping powers enormously. It empowered racial profiling as a recognized police practice and allowed broad sweeps of people of Middle Eastern or Asian origin. It effectively abolished immigrants' rights, allowing noncitizens to be held in secret locations on secret "evidence," without right to an attorney, for as long as the government wishes.

The government now has the power to enter your home or your computer and secretly record whatever they find without ever having to notify you. They do not even have to obtain a warrant from a publicly accountable judge showing reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed.

Wisconsin Democratic Sen. Russ Feingold spoke the following words from the Senate floor on Oct. 11, 2001, when he was the only senator to vote against Attorney General John Ashcroft's USA Patriot Act: "There is no doubt that if we lived in a police state, it would be easier to catch terrorists. If we lived in a country where police were allowed to search your home at any time for any reason; if we lived in a country where the government is entitled to open your mail, eavesdrop on your phone conversations, or intercept your e-mail communications; if we lived in a country where people could be held in jail indefinitely based on what they write or think, or based on mere suspicion that they are up to no good, the government would probably discover more terrorists or would-be terrorists! But that wouldn't be a country in which we would want to live."

But today, it has gotten worse with the passage of the Homeland Security Act. Notice that these titles, "Patriot" and "Homeland," sound very much like the language of the Nazis. A common slogan of the Nazi regime was "the highest freedom is a noble slavery of the heart." People are free, the slogan meant, when they have enslaved their hearts to the "homeland" in absolute obedience to their government. "Deutschland, Deckhand, uber alles!" they shouted. Blind loyalty, patriotism, and emotion must triumph over liberty, reason and sound judgment.

Under the U.S. Homeland Security Act (our rights again given away freely by a bipartisan Congress), 22 U.S. agencies are combined in order to achieve "total information awareness" on every American citizen. The government will soon be amassing a file on every American that includes every magazine subscription, credit card purchase, Web site visit, medical record, library record, bank deposit or withdrawals, every airline purchase, as well as judicial, divorce records, and so on. This will be recorded in a central data base, not by a publicly accountable authority, but by the Pentagon, which already operates in total secrecy from the American public.

Government intimidation for political reasons is real and it has begun. Our government already is using its secret data bases to harass Americans. Political activists checking in at airports at the airline desk have had their names come up from a secret government list as "flight risks." They and their luggage have been supersearched to the point where they are made to miss their flights, and then released to fly. Obviously if they were really "flight risks," they would not be allowed to fly.

Attorneys have found that their attorney-client privilege has all but disappeared. The government has even placed hidden cameras in prisons to record attorney discussions with their clients. The government has begun harassing people maintaining Web sites they consider politically objectionable.

The Justice Department announced a plan to use its newfound power to designate U.S. citizens as "enemy combatants" to place such people in concentration camps. Declaring them "enemy combatants" would strip them of their constitutional rights, their access to the courts and allow the government to indefinitely hold them without trial.

This is identical in purpose to some of the Nazi concentration camps.

Do we citizens care at all about the future of our children or the plight of the millions of citizens in this country of Arab descent, or those who nonviolently oppose government policy? We have repeated for so long the slogan "it can't happen here." But the darkness and terror of totalitarianism is coming rapidly.

Do we have the courage and integrity to speak out now, before it is too late? Or will we continue to freely shop in our large department stores for gifts for family and friends - as they did in Nazi Germany.

GLEN T. MARTIN is professor of philosophy and religious studies at Radford University.

Reprinted from The Roanoke Times:
O.T.I.C. day...


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1201835 -

Today, people of the United States have given up their rights through the "Patriot Act," the "Homeland Security Act" and the Pentagon's new system of "Total Information Awareness." The astonishing thing about this "land of the free" is that most Americans now have no effective rights and do not care.

What rights have americans lost, exactly? Last time I checked you can work if you want, go to school if you want, sit at home and do nothing if you want, and go anywhere in the country you want.

The government now has the power to enter your home or your computer and secretly record whatever they find without ever having to notify you. They do not even have to obtain a warrant from a publicly accountable judge showing reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed.

As long as you are not a member of a terrorist organization and are not actively running a website to recruit and organize people in order to commit an act of terrorism, then you probably don't have anything to worry about. I'm also pretty sure that they would still have to get a search warrant unless they have probable cause(ie they believe you have someone hostage or are in the middle of committing a crime) and would still have to show that there was probable cause.

(with automobiles burning oil stolen from dying Iraqi children),

There seems to be alot of people that think that our sanctions are "killing innocent people and forcing them to live in subhuman conditions". Maybe this is true but I have some questions for those who think that. How is it that there is still money for Saddam to have over a dozen palaces? How is it that there is money for the government to issue every Iraqi citizen a gun? How is it that there is still money to fund a military? There seems to be no shortage of money for all these things but yet no money to feed the people. Now, would that be due to our sanctions or gross mismanagement of the Iraqi economy by their brilliant leader?  :confused:


 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1201936 -

Quote:
As long as you are not a member of a terrorist organization and are not actively running a website to recruit and organize people in order to commit an act of terrorism, then you probably don't have anything to worry about.


What is a terrorist? If history is any indication, the definition will turn out to be sufficiently elastic that at some point anyone who criticizes the current regime might be considered to be fomenting terrorist sympathies and be classified among the group of 'enemy combatants.' Already we have seen that drug users (which would include most members of The Shroomery) have been put on notice that their actions support terrorism. The battle lines are being drawn, we must not let our inclinations towards the concept that our government 'means well' blind us to the fact that we are headed down a slippery slope towards a police state and the total abrogation of the principals upon which our country was founded.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Evolving]
    #1202012 -

What is a terrorist?

ok, let me rephrase it. as long as you are not obviously engaging in some sort of illegal activity(ie trying to purchase weapons grade plutonium, trying to hack into and corrupt government servers, soliciting money to fund criminal activities, etc.) then you should have nothing to worry about. just because you post on the shroomery doesn't mean you should be in fear of the government hacking into your computer, reading your emails to your friends and relatives, and busting down your door and hauling you off to camp x-ray. unless you're a towelhead, of course.  :wink: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1202056 -

Please examine the following image,
Notice some of the descriptions...
- defenders of US Constitution against federal government and the UN
- Groups of individuals engaged in para-military training (AKA: some friends out shooting their rifles)
- No drivers license
- Refuse to identify themselves
- Request authority for stop
- Make numerous references to US Constitution
- Attempt to "police the police"
- Lone Individuals

and the other side of the flyer...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (01/09/03 03:02 AM)

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1202768 -

Quote:
There seems to be no shortage of money for all these things but yet no money to feed the people. Now, would that be due to our sanctions or gross mismanagement of the Iraqi economy by their brilliant leader?





Would be nice n easy to believe that wouldnt it? Unfortunately facts dont back this up. Consider this quote from Anupama Rao Singh, Unicef's senior representative in Iraq:
Quote:
In 1989, the literacy rate was 95%; and 93% of the population had free access to modern health facilities. Iraq had reached a stage where the basic indicators we use to measure the overall well-being of human beings, including children, were some of the best in the world. Now it is among the bottom 20%. In 10 years, child mortality has gone from one of the lowest in the world, to the highest.




These are the direct affects of sanctions. I suppose Unicef are lying commies or something.

Well consider this from Denis Halliday(Former Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations) quoted from an interview with Z magazine:

Quote:
Of the $20 billion that has been provided through the oil-for-food programme, about a third, or $7 billion, has been spent on UN 'expenses', reparations to Kuwait and assorted compensation claims. That leaves $13 billion available to the Iraqi government. If you divide that figure by the population of Iraq, which is 22 million, it leave some $190 per head of population per year over 3 years - that is pitifully inadequate.




Now I know Sadaam hasnt dropped his own standard of living but, be honest, in a similar situation do you really believe the Bush family would do any different? The point is that before the start of sanctions and the last gulf war Iraq were doing just fine under Sadaams leadership.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1202887 -

Quote:
unless you're a towelhead



:shocked:

Ok everyone, he said the "T" word.

Let's all begin our mantra:

Racist racist racist racist racist racist racist 

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Evolving]
    #1202895 -

Pretty frightening E.

Watch out for those "Super Patriots". They are an evil bunch to be sure.

You seem to like quotes so here's a good one for your collection if you haven't heard it before:

"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1202898 -

They also have the right to throw 'Enemy combatons" in concentration camps now!



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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: ]
    #1203107 -

Quote:
Ok everyone, he said the "T" word.

Let's all begin our mantra:

Racist racist racist racist racist racist racist 

Whats you're problem, do you not agree, geeze, I  hate all these PC people, he has a right to say that, and you lefties are making me sick. :tongue: :wink:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Skikid16]
    #1203122 -

ROTFLMAO........barf :tongue:

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Skikid16]
    #1203213 -

It would seem you missed the joke.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Skikid16]
    #1203267 -

name calling doesnt really achieve much does it?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1203287 -

Excellent article Carbonhoots...

I think that this is a very crucial point in American history, and whether you lean to the left or right is irrelevant. The point is that there is some very scary happenings going on right now and if the population is too blinded by patriotism to see it or too apathetic to fight it...then the population doesn't deserve it's freedom that it fought so hard to keep.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

Edited by Rono (01/09/03 05:54 AM)

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1203699 -

The Patriot Act:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c107:2:./temp/~c107TUNNGo::

Edited by stonedfish (01/09/03 10:06 AM)

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Anonymous]
    #1203848 -

Linky no worky...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Rono]
    #1203898 -

My bad, try again.

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Evolving]
    #1203972 -

Um..............well Im scared! Any of you canadians feel like sponsoring me for citizenship? I gotta get outta here


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Evolving]
    #1203973 -

Um..............well Im scared! Any of you canadians feel like sponsoring me for citizenship? I gotta get outta here


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================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Anonymous]
    #1204017 -

If you really think about it though, they could get you for anything they want and lock you up without a trial. No search warrant necessary, and this doesn't have to just be used for terrorism. They can claim drug dealers and computer hackers are terrorists too and lock them up under this act.

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1204039 -

here's more fun stuff


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1204071 -

you still did not refute the fact that in spite of the "devestation" that these sanctions have caused, there is still funding for maintaining an air force and ground forces, maintaining over a dozen palaces, and issuing guns and ammunition to every citizen. and let's not forget that there is a choice here. they could easily end the sanctions and could have done so years ago.

In 1989, the literacy rate was 95%; and 93% of the population had free access to modern health facilities. Iraq had reached a stage where the basic indicators we use to measure the overall well-being of human beings, including children, were some of the best in the world. Now it is among the bottom 20%.

i really don't see how the sanctions have directly affected literacy rates. why do you need money to teach someone to read? further more, you act as if just because there are sanctions against them that there is no money flowing in whatsoever. people do have jobs, they are making money, and there are businesses in operation. so, its not as if everyone over there is just sitting around in the desert, penniless.

That leaves $13 billion available to the Iraqi government. If you divide that figure by the population of Iraq, which is 22 million, it leave some $190 per head of population per year over 3 years - that is pitifully inadequate.

actually, the math is a little off here. that would actually leave $590 per person.  :wink: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1204082 -

A woman is confronted by a big, strong, stranger. She doesn't know what he's planning, and she's cautious. Getting away from him is not possible. They're in a room and he's standing in front of the only way out, or she's in a wheelchair - whatever...Leaving the area is not an option.

So now he starts to do things she doesn't like. He asks her for money. She can try to talk him out of it, just like we argue for lower taxes, and maybe it will work...If it doesn't, and she gets outvoted, she'll probably choose to give it to him instead of getting into a fight to the death over ten dollars. You would probably choose to pay your taxes rather than have the police arrive to throw you in jail.

Maybe this big man demands some other things, other minor assaults on this women's dignity. When should she claw at his eyes or shove her ballpoint pen in his throat? When he tries to force her to kiss him? Tries to force her to let him touch her? Tries to force her to have sex with him?

Those are questions that each woman has to answer for herself. There is one situation, though, where I think women should fight to the death. That's when the man pulls out a pair of handcuffs and says, 'Come on, I promise I won't hurt you, this is just so you won't flail around and hurt either of us by accident. Come on, I just want to talk, get in the van and let me handcuff you to this eyebolt here, and I promise I won't touch you. I'm not asking you to put on a gag or anything, and since you can still scream for help, you know you'll be safe. Come on, I got a full bar in here, and color TV, and air-conditioning, great stereo, come on, just put on the cuffs.'

Now maybe the man is telling the truth, and maybe after talking to her for a while he'll let her go and she will have had a good time drinking champagne and listening to music. But if she gets in the van and puts her wrists in the handcuffs, she has just given up her future ability to fight, and now it is too late.

In other, more obvious words...how do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the government has the handcuffs out?

"Trust me", sayeth the government.



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Evolving]
    #1204088 -

all those things that were in the brochure are pretty much what i described in my post. the key words in the brochure were "criminal activity".


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1204128 -

Quote:
all those things that were in the brochure are pretty much what i described in my post. the key words in the brochure were "criminal activity".


Smoking pot is a criminal activity (and according to the government, supports terrorism), taking over $10k in cash out of the country is a criminal activity, running ads against an issue that a political candidate is for is illegal 60 days before an election. Do you have any idea how many new laws are passed every year? I've heard cops say that they could take any single individual and find them commiting at least one crime every day. There are so many laws that it is impossible for any one person to know for sure what is a criminal activity and what isn't.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1204199 -

-"In 10 years, child mortality has gone from one of the lowest in the world, to the highest."

actually, iraq's mortality rate before the gulf war was not one of the highest in the world. according to unicef, the mortality rate before US sanctions was 56 deaths for every 1000 births. that is pretty high and is nowhere near being one of the lowest. in 2002 the rate was about 57 per 1000. here's a link to my source:

iraqichildmortalityratein2002


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1204324 -

In 1989, the literacy rate was 95%; and 93% of the population had free access to modern health facilities.

in 1987 iraq's literacy rates for men was 53% and for women it was 31%. in 2002 it was 70% for men and 45% for women. here's my a link to my source:
iraqliteracyrates

so basically i've shown proof that sanctions have had no direct influence on iraq's infant mortality rate, literacy rates, and also that iraq is back to 75% of their pre gulf war oil export levels. all this data seems to indicate, to me at least, that iraqs social problems have more to do with saddam's mismanagement then the tyranny of the evil US war machine. for anyone to say that the problems that iraq is facing today is solely the responsibility of the US is absurd. if saddam really cared for his people he would step down and let the UN do their job and these sanctions would end.  :tongue: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


Edited by htownkid28 (01/09/03 01:12 PM)

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Evolving]
    #1204380 -

you are right. all those things you mentioned are criminal activities, for the most part.(im not sure about running an ad against an issue that a politician supports, though im not in politics so it doesnt affect me). speeding is also an illegal activity, though almost everyone in the country does it everyday. does everyone get arrested for it or even a ticket for it? no. you are also right about new laws being passed every year. in fact, there are probably more laws out there than can be enforced. look, im not saying that im mr. clean and have never broken a law in my life. far from it. ive done my share of illegal activity. but does that mean that i live in fear of being hauled off to some concentration camp? no. i think there is alot of paranoia out there since 9/11 because people see the government trying to pass laws to help them crack down on acts of terrorism and they freak out. they think that because they frequent a certain website or enjoy some herb amongst friends that "big brother" is watching them. but, as i said before, i havent really noticed it affecting my lifestyle. im doing the same things now that ive been doing ever since i can remember.


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1205725 -

The thing is Kid I didnt claim anything . I provided information from reputable sources. If you want to refute them please provide me with information from equally reputable sources. As far as im concerned you dont fall into this category.

Quote:
  really don't see how the sanctions have directly affected literacy rates. 



That is a small part of what is being said in that paragraph and anyway are you trying to tell me that learning materials are free and teachers work for nothing?
I notice you chose not to comment on the fact that the people of Iraq had a level of well being that was one of the best in the world prior to sanctions.

Quote:
people do have jobs, they are making money, and there are businesses in operation. so, its not as if everyone over there is just sitting around in the desert, penniless.




They would be making alot more money if they were allowed to trade freely with the rest of the world. Basically, the sanctions imposed by the west are a form of Economic Terrorism designed to weaken the country and the morale of the Iraqi people to make it all the easier to step in and steal the oil.
Quote:
actually, the math is a little off here. that would actually leave $590 per person.   



Actually the Math is wrong..it should read $196. You forgot to divide $590 by 3.  :smirk:

 


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1205726 -

Can you point me to the child mortality rates for 1989. I can see the ones for 2002 but not 1989

Cheers.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: htownkid28]
    #1205736 -

That is not a very clear table.

Anyway statistics damn statistics.....

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/1998/msg00356.html

Basically, who do you trust? what are the agendas of those providing the information?

Well Unicef are primarily concerned with helping people whereas the UN are primarily concernned with themsevelves. The sanctions are imposed by the UN so its no surprise to me that their figures paint a different picture to those of Unicef.

Sanctions have caused the deaths of more than 500,000 children in Iraq. Madeline Albright describes this as unfortunate but she did not deny it. I will try and find a link to this little gem.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1206321 -

I provided information from reputable sources. If you want to refute them please provide me with information from equally reputable sources. As far as im concerned you dont fall into this category.

the only source you provided was a quote from a unicef representative which you didnt back up with a link. i provided data from more than one source and backed them up with links. now you want argue whose source is more credible.

I notice you chose not to comment on the fact that the people of Iraq had a level of well being that was one of the best in the world prior to sanctions.

actually i did comment on that subject. i would like to know what you are basing this claim on. please provide me with a link to your source for this. you are the one making this claim so back it up. literacy rates and infant mortality rates are the same now as they were before the sanctions, if that is what you are using to determine this state of well-being.


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1206387 -

here's a link to the infant mortality rates in 1989 published by unicef:

childmortalityratesin1989

if you read the article it says that the rates doubled in the iraqi controlled areas and that there was steps that could have been taken by the iraqi government to reduce the rates but didnt.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1206440 -

That is not a very clear table.

i dont know whats unclear about it. it first shows the literacy rates in 2000 then it shows the rates in 1987. all you have to do is go down the list and find the country you are looking for. i did read the article you posted. i would agree with it in the fact that before the sanctions iraq had some of the highest literacy rates in the arab world. however, if you look at the current statistics you will find that they still have some of the highest rates in the arab world.

Basically, who do you trust? what are the agendas of those providing the information?

so only statistics from unicef are credible? i think you just dont want to face the fact that you might be wrong. i made my arguement and provided the facts that i was able to find and if you choose to ignore this, then that is certainly your right. i would still like to see proof that the sanctions are directly responsible for the deaths of 500,000 children. let's just for arguements sake say that it is true. then iraq would still be to blame because if they would just have lived up to their end of the treaty the sanctions could have been lifted and the deaths could have been prevented.  :smirk:


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"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1206570 -

Gazzbut writes:

Basically, who do you trust? what are the agendas of those providing the information?

Would you trust the authors of the actual UNICEF studies? Would their agenda be acceptable to you?

Well Unicef are primarily concerned with helping people whereas the UN are primarily concernned with themsevelves. The sanctions are imposed by the UN so its no surprise to me that their figures paint a different picture to those of Unicef.

It may come as a surprise to you, but UNICEF is a UN organization.

Sanctions have caused the deaths of more than 500,000 children in Iraq.

Actually, they have not. This is now the fourth time I have posted the following in this forum, but some of the newer members may not have seen it:

As UNICEF itself is scrupulously careful to point out in UNICEF: Questions and Answers for the Iraq child mortality surveys - BAGHDAD, 16 August 1999 (UNICEF) Survey Methodology/credibility --

"These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

UNICEF also said in the same report:

"A dramatic increase in bottle-feeding of infants has occurred in Iraq. Given the contribution of bottle-feeding to higher levels of malnutrition and child mortality, UNICEF is urging the Government to remove breastmilk substitutes from the rations and replace them with additional food for pregnant and lactating women. UNICEF has also called on the Government to promote exclusive breastfeeding of infants as a national policy."

Could you please explain for us the connection between Iraqi women following the worldwide trend of moving towards a more modern (albeit arguably less nutritious) method of child-rearing (bottle-feeding vs. breast-feeding) and the imposition of the United Nations sanctions? Could it be possible that the sanctions have nothing to do with it at all -- that ALL of the increase in infant mortality is instead due to the "dramatic increase in bottle-feeding"? For the record, I personally don't believe it IS entirely due to bottle-feeding, but as UNICEF themselves say, it is difficult to specifically attribute the death of a child to any single cause. Certainly UNICEF feels bottle-feeding is a serious enough factor in the increase in Iraq's infant mortality to emphasize in no uncertain terms their opposition to it.

Here's some more from the report:

"In the autonomous northern region, under-5 mortality rose from 80 deaths per 1000 live births in the period 1984-1989 to 90 deaths per 1000 live births during the years 1989-1994. The under-5 rate fell to 72 deaths per 1000 live births between 1994 and 1999. Infant mortality rates followed a similar pattern."

Now isn't that interesting! In the northern region of Iraq, where Hussein's control is weakest, the latest availale mortality rates are actually 10% lower than they were ten years earlier, before sanctions were imposed. What is the only possible conclusion we can draw from this? Why, it MUST be that the sanctions are actually SAVING CHILDREN'S LIVES!!!!! *sarcasm*

Seiously, though, what is the most likely explanation for this documented drop? Someone with less belief than I in Hussein's oft-demonstrated concern for his fellow man might say that in the autonomous north the humanitarian supplies are actually making it to those who need it, rather than being hijacked by Hussein's thugs to be resold at a profit through the black market.

Sound bites and carefully selected snippets are worse than useless when it comes to statistical analyses. The METHODOLOGY of the surveys must be considered, and ALL factors looked at, not just the ones which appear to support your personal agenda.

Besides, all of this is moot, because it is all Saddam's fault anyway. Have the sanctions made life more difficult for the Iraqi poor? Yep. Would the sanctions have been imposed if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait? Nope.

pinky


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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: Phred]
    #1206924 -

You have both raised interesting points and given me some more things to think about, and thanks for pointing out any mistakes I may have made along the way. However, I still maintain that the people of Iraq have been poorly treated by us in the way sanctions have been imposed. Obviously, Hussein has to shoulder a large part of the burden. Im just not comfortable with the way we turned a blind eye and even helped him commit some of the attrocities against his people untill such time as he was no longer of use to us. We are going in for the oil, that much is clear to me, we are not acting in the interests of the Iraqi people and they are suffering because of our desire. Sadly we are about to inflict even more suffering upon them. We are now only weeks away from beginning the inevitable assault on Iraq and as yet we have been provided with no credible evidence relating to WMD to justify this. Innocent children will die by the hands of those acting in our name.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Another Nazi-USA Article [Re: GazzBut]
    #1207992 -

Pinky, I saw a documentary a few months back which was saying that more money was making it throught to Northern Iraq because it is the area of the country which supports Hussein least. Even the Iraqi doctors they interviewed there complained they were not able to obtain many harmless medicines that were under sanction.


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Always Smi2le

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