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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761665 - 06/03/04 11:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

He gassed hundreds of thousands of his own people




thousands, not hundreds of thousands. it was horrible, but not quite that horrible

Quote:

Then 9-11 happened on American soil



were there mainly saudis or iraqis in that plane?

Quote:

They already have critical infrastructure and a literate people.



uhhh...i really do not think they had great infrastructure, and they certainly dont now after we bombed it all. we're working on running water and electricity right now.
and as for literate? they're 40% literate according to CIA factbook.

Quote:

Someday they will break into the top 20, and it will be largely because of the United States of America had the guts to do what is right.



now this i agree with, except for the part about 'because the usa had the guts' its because the usa taxpayers will foot the bill for an extensive new infrastructure and industry like we did with japan.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761690 - 06/03/04 11:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

That Muslim world doesn't have a free voice to speak with. Plenty of people in Iraq are not enraged at all, they are free. Those Kurds are as happy as pigs in shit compared to the days of Sadaam.

A free Iraq will tip the balance of power in the Arabic world. All free thinking intellectuals will migrate to the new haven that refuses to censor and lets them express their own views. The culture will be enhanced by leaps and bounds by this freedom, and it will eclipse every other Arabic nation combined.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineRedo
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Registered: 04/13/04
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761714 - 06/03/04 11:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Zahid:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/junior/note1.htm

Wow, theyve done alot havent they, those UN people are very forgiving of anything, looks like they solve problems much better then anybody else ever has.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2761719 - 06/04/04 12:01 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

You only hear the radical's view in the reports. Why report on the every day good now free people of Afganistand and Iraq, thats no fun now is it.


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761727 - 06/04/04 12:03 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plenty of people in Iraq are not enraged at all, they are free.




Did Bill O'Reilly tell you that? All joking aside, I'm sure of course there are some Iraqis who are happy about this. But let's not kid ourselves here. I'm sure not being bombed is preferred over being bombed anyday by the average Iraqi. I also feel I must point out that in no way has it been proven that Iraq was involved in 9/11. If my memory serves me, the majority, if not all, of the terrorists on that plane were Saudi citizens. We would never go to war against the Saudis though, we have entirely too much money tied up with the Saudi royal family.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761735 - 06/04/04 12:06 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

A free Iraq will tip the balance of power in the Arabic world. All free thinking intellectuals will migrate to the new haven that refuses to censor and lets them express their own views. The culture will be enhanced by leaps and bounds by this freedom, and it will eclipse every other Arabic nation combined.




That may be, but you think we're actually heading in the right direction for a "free" Iraq? I think that definitely remains to be seen. Hell we're already running out of bullets. This war, whether you think it's justified or not, has been badly managed from the beginning. It's GWB playing in the sandbox with his GI Joe's with little to no regard for the human life being wasted.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2761742 - 06/04/04 12:08 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

No one is defending Saddam Hussein here - al-Qaedists even consider him a munafiq (hypocrite) and an infidel. Saddam was secular; all over Iraq he posted giant portraits of himself prostrating on a prayer rug because in the Middle East, behind every political strife - it does involve people who follow the Islamic faith. Religion is the focus of this society. In Muslim/Arab countries there are traffic signs that simply state "God is Great". In such a culture - it is dangerous when ignorant foreigners are present in occupation. The precise reason "Muslims don't have a voice" is because of the corrupt regimes they live under that exist because they are U.S.-backed; thus giving the people no hope of changing their corrupt governments by way of force.


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761758 - 06/04/04 12:11 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

In the midwestern United States, every so often there are billboards along the highways that proclaim "abortion is murder" and that I should "trust in jesus".


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: adrug]
    #2761765 - 06/04/04 12:14 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

adrug said:
In the midwestern United States, every so often there are billboards along the highways that proclaim "abortion is murder" and that I should "trust in jesus".




Paid-for advertisements by special interest groups are different than government issued traffic signs.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761769 - 06/04/04 12:14 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
No one is defending Saddam Hussein here - al-Qaedists even consider him a munafiq (hypocrite) and an infidel. Saddam was secular; all over Iraq he posted giant portraits of himself prostrating on a prayer rug because in the Middle East, behind every political strife - it does involve people who follow the Islamic faith. Religion is the focus of this society. In Muslim/Arab countries there are traffic signs that simply state "God is Great". In such a culture - it is dangerous when ignorant foreigners are present in occupation.




It's this difference of culture that I think the Bush administration fails to grasp, or perhaps just ignores. I don't like to quote pop-media too much but I'm reminded of the line from the trailer of the Chronicles of Riddick, "Convert now or fall forever". Bush's version is the "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists". It's the glaringly ignorant hubris of this administration that the rest of the world wants to be just like the U.S. that I think is the biggest threat to peace. Look at Turkey, they are basically forced to remain a secular state by the incumbants, mainly to appease the world at large I suppose. But given the opportunity the people there would vote in a theocracy.

I think Bush and friends need to take a religious awareness class.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761782 - 06/04/04 12:16 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Quote:

adrug said:
In the midwestern United States, every so often there are billboards along the highways that proclaim "abortion is murder" and that I should "trust in jesus".




Paid-for advertisements by special interest groups are different than government issued traffic signs.




Very much a difference. One is an exercise in freedom of speech, the other is institutionalised religion, a pretty exlusive and intolerant one at that. And I don't necessarily mean Islam.

:shocked:


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2761901 - 06/04/04 12:56 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Institutionalised religion, yes - but like I said, it is cultural - the states that enforce aspects of Islamic Law are more or less puppet regimes and that hardly represent anything of their people. Which is why Saddam made portraits of himself praying when he himself does not even believe in God - to ease the pressure from an entire culture that expands accross a large portion of the planet that puts its trust in Religion as the sole guidance for daily life. Whether it's in scenario with religious fanatics or some family trying to get ends meet, in this culture Shariah Law is what people regard greater than themselves. Approaching the entire culture with the mentality that "it's all fundamentalist foos'ha, lets bring them freedom!" is dangerous. Iraqis are happy Saddam is gone - even the insurgents and the religionists that support them are happy about Saddam's removal. Before the coalition forces came, not a flying chance in hell could Muqtada al-Sadr form his own cladestine army of highly religious Shia Muslims.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2761911 - 06/04/04 01:02 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well my point about the religion of Islam and how it relates to government is that the very fundamental basis of Islam is contained within the meaning of the word(s). Islam translates to "submission" (among other things) and Moslem translates to "submitter" (again, among other things). This submission is to God, directly from the individual. In practical application of the religion though it is usually mediated socially through the government. This is why theocracies are so often found in Islamic countries. It's not right or wrong, it's just different from how the U.S. does it. Unfortunately the exclusive nature of both Islam and Christianity essentially preclude any real tolerance, especially from the extremists on both sides.


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2761964 - 06/04/04 01:25 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Indeed - reform in the Muslim world will include democracy and Shariah Law - and these governments will represent the people. In fact, most fanatics don't realize that with a democratic Islamic state, problems such as Chechnya, Falasteen, and Kashmir may be dealt with more accordingly.


Edited by Zahid (06/04/04 03:27 AM)


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OfflineTao
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2761988 - 06/04/04 01:35 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It's not right or wrong, it's just different from how the U.S. does it.




I disagree.
I think separation between church and state = k3y. Same way that I think government should be ruled by the people democratically and citizens should be given basic civil rights (speech, thought, religion, etc) .


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Tao]
    #2761999 - 06/04/04 01:40 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

It's not right or wrong, it's just different from how the U.S. does it.




I disagree.
I think separation between church and state = k3y. Same way that I think government should be ruled by the people democratically and citizens should be given basic civil rights (speech, thought, religion, etc) .




*shrug* I really don't think it's the right or the duty of the U.S. (or any other country) to dictate how another is run, in regards to it's form of government as long as the people aren't unduly oppressed. If they can work a functioning theocracy I'd be happy for them. I will say however that when religion enters into it the odds of power-mongering and abuse rise. There are tons of tribal communities throughout the world though that are essentially theocracies and they often function just fine. We don't need to go in and tell them that's wrong, not if it works for them.


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2762036 - 06/04/04 01:54 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2762169 - 06/04/04 03:12 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Freedom of religion is a very positive step, but seperation of religion and government makes not a big difference in many other cultures.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: unbeliever]
    #2762197 - 06/04/04 03:33 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I really don't think it's the right or the duty of the U.S. (or any other country) to dictate how another is run




I agree.

Quote:

when religion enters into it the odds of power-mongering and abuse rise.



Thats partly my point. But also, to quote the movie Dogma, "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier." If the laws supposedly come from God, they are much more inflexible to change than if they come from the opinions and views of the current society.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: HillBilly777]
    #2762387 - 06/04/04 06:55 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Ok -
- well everyone knows where the KKK stand.....

- and how about the WAR group, admittedly not religious fanatics, to them racial bloodline is the key, not religion, but their standpoint is equally vicious.
'August 1, 2002: Tom Metzger continues to promote lone-wolf and small-cell activism. He believes there lesson to be learned from Palestinian terrorists..."Moslems are no less an enemy than the Jews." On the other hand, Metzger also wrote in April 2002, "Their [sic] is a lesson to be learned from the Palestinians. Do not ignore it. Freedom Fighting works." '

He seems to have a penchant for the approach of hamas type fundamentalists.....

'He has been widely acknowledged as the principal mentor of the neo-Nazi skinhead movement since its appearance in America during the mid-1980s; in this connection, he attracted nationwide publicity in 1990, when an Oregon jury rendered a $12.5 million judgment against him and his son, John, for inciting the murder of an Ethiopian immigrant by skinheads.'

Sure he doesn't call Allah or God when someone from another race is killed, he just hoolers and whoops and cracks open some beer - as equally convinced at his superiority as any hamas member, or any elitist-extremist-fundamentalist anywhere.


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