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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2770606 - 06/07/04 01:02 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Do you always do that when the truths a little uncomfortable for you?

Either that or run and write a pissy rating  :smirk:


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2770725 - 06/07/04 02:35 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Does "State-sponsored" terrorism mean anything to you?


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2770890 - 06/07/04 06:33 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

when you look at an invading army, if that isn't a complete organism made up of cell structures attacking an opposing establishment - then I don't know what it is. It is terrorism on a grand scale when launched as an unprovoked action.

Back to my falling down point on my first post of only mentioning one terrorist attack by the middle east rather than 2. Corect me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the arch purpetrator of both said to be Osama bin Laden? And has he been brought to justice?
However, have entire nations and swathes of innocents paid in blood?

germin8tion8ionn: 'Look at every "UN Action" across the globe, most of the troops and money are US. We play a much broader role than other nations, then the UN turns on us.'
So the UN was fine for the USA government when it was their toy....but no sharing is to be done. It's only useful when UN = US. However the moment some other members and the council itself present an opinion - in steps mass paranioa that they are turning on you. The UN was not turning on the USA, it was following a procedure.

It's a shame when it was all going the USA's way the power and influence wasn't used a little better to bring influence over other members, like China for example. Or would that have meant giving some of the help you speak of to....the enemy

I appreciate what you are saying about supporting cruel regimes, over even crueller regimes..... However I see little evidence of any real moral banding. Just a lot of righteous speak and thinly veiled material intersts.

germin8tion8ionn: 'Ok, compare current Iraq with pre-war Iraq. How many bloodthirsty dictators are in charge now?'
- only one, GWB

germin8tion8ionn: 'Kim Jong Il is a scumbag leading a "cruel regime" that has WMD's. His main goal though, really, isn't the destruction of a few nations or the USA, it's his and his other cohorts financial solvency. We can pay him, in money or in trade agreements, so that he'll just not make nukes.'
And the USA will believe him?.....or will it then force another war?

If you compare N Korea and Iraq to Hitler's germany, I think you will see that Hitler was in an arms race proper, and so is N Korea....Saddam barely had the means, especially with all the sanctions laid upon his nation.

When you look back at those times, perhaps the USA should have helped out Germany the way you speak of helping N Korea. Before Hitler had had a chance to monopolise on peoples disenfranchisement.
It seems like there's double standards everywhere -
Saddam ran a dire regime: put sanctions on his nation starve his people, cut off supplies etc etc.
Kim Jong runs a dire regime: feed him up, send the money over, look after him - he's not that bad (ask his people!)
Hitler runs a dire regime: let him rise up to ridiculous heady hights of armed to the teeth power, and then actually wage war on the world in the most threatening manner until he has spent 3 years taking over most of Europe, and advancing his empire in every direction, before directly stepping in. (Sure I know the USA supplied a few planes, pilots and some financial aid to the UK before 1942. However wouldn't you say Hitler's World Domination rap was pretty threatening from way back before the war even started? That it was more poised, sharpened, definite and empowered than any of the middle east nations - by a lightyear or 2. Was action taken?)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2770903 - 06/07/04 06:53 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

germin8tion8ion: 'Should we say "OK Africa, no more money from us since you are all ruthless dictators" and allow hundreds of thousands of people tos tarve to death again?'

lol

As if US aid is saving people, oh sorry the dictators are doing fine
- Looked at Africa lately?

germin8tion8ion:'The next time that the UN decides "they" need something, we can just tell them that it doesn't fit our interest, and we can let China and the Congo help them out. It's just that simple. Being the only superpower on the block gives us alot of, well, power.'
- Team players till the end! Shit you are starting to sound like Hitler with this world dominance rap.
Aren't Truth & Justice supposed to be the 2 cornerstones of the American way?


So what happens when NKorea stop playing? And they've spent all the money you've given them on Nukes, fed up a great big army with the aid that was supposed to go to civillians and decide they want to spit the dummy?
Will it be sanctions and then agresive war again? Except against real WMD, because you let him away with it?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: CJay]
    #2771544 - 06/07/04 12:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
when you look at an invading army... It is terrorism on a grand scale when launched as an unprovoked action.



True, very true.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Zahid]
    #2772530 - 06/07/04 06:27 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Does "State-sponsored" terrorism mean anything to you?




It certainly does. If the Taliban, for example, are paying non-uniformed members of a guerilla unit that doesn't support the soverign nation to go and bomb embassies, it's "state sponsored terrorism". If any nation uses their uniformed, lawful military to invade another nation, it's an act of war. Terrorism doesn't equate to "bad things done with guns". It's a very specific word.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: CJay]
    #2772560 - 06/07/04 06:36 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
when you look at an invading army, if that isn't a complete organism made up of cell structures attacking an opposing establishment - then I don't know what it is. It is terrorism on a grand scale when launched as an unprovoked action.




Read a book.
Quote:


Back to my falling down point on my first post of only mentioning one terrorist attack by the middle east rather than 2. Corect me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the arch purpetrator of both said to be Osama bin Laden? And has he been brought to justice?




No, the first was some Shiek Mohammed someone, who was sentanced, along with fiveother extremists. Osama was responsible for the second attack, and he hasn't been "broght to justice". What the fuck are you reading/smoking that would let you think that bin-Laden has been captured as of yet? Are you just that dumb?
Quote:


So the UN was fine for the USA government when it was their toy....but no sharing is to be done. It's only useful when UN = US.




The US isn't cowtowing to an organization that we voluntarily belong to? How dare we! China and the Congo should start an investigation, them being on the human rights committie and all.
Quote:


However the moment some other members and the council itself present an opinion - in steps mass paranioa that they are turning on you. The UN was not turning on the USA, it was following a procedure.




Oh, so the UN's lack of actions in Iraq were "procedural"? Explain the"procedure" followed from un resolution 641.
Quote:


It's a shame when it was all going the USA's way the power and influence wasn't used a little better to bring influence over other members, like China for example. Or would that have meant giving some of the help you speak of to....the enemy




Hm, babelfish can't seem to translate from "idiot" to "english", could you re-write that in a manner that can be read by all? Thanks
Quote:


I appreciate what you are saying about supporting cruel regimes, over even crueller regimes..... However I see little evidence of any real moral banding. Just a lot of righteous speak and thinly veiled material intersts.




What are you talking about specifically? Name some instances where what you accuse of happening is actually happening.

Quote:


- only one, GWB




Bush isn't in charge of Iraq. Great research Mr 1 Attack man.
Quote:


And the USA will believe him?.....or will it then force another war?




I'm going to start charging for history lessons soon, beware. The US and the International Atomic Energy (association, comittie, not sure which) had MONITORS (living people) installed in the nuclear plant that is in question. They kicekd them out. If they re-allow them, we'll have to belive them. Neat how that works, hm?
Quote:


If you compare N Korea and Iraq to Hitler's germany, I think you will see that Hitler was in an arms race proper, and so is N Korea....Saddam barely had the means, especially with all the sanctions laid upon his nation.




They aren't really in an arms race, most political thinkers realize that N Korea just wants to have barganing chips. Their main goal is to stop building weapons and start getting money or sanctions lifted.
Quote:


When you look back at those times, perhaps the USA should have helped out Germany the way you speak of helping N Korea. Before Hitler had had a chance to monopolise on peoples disenfranchisement.




Why would pre-war Germany need any "help"? Hitlers sense of nationalism after the Versailles treaty crippled Germany was rebuilding Germany. More jobs, more money, taking over a few nations. What "help" would he have asked for? If you think that the booming economy and expansion of pre-war Germany and the rag-tag cesspit of poorness and squallor in N Korea compare at all, you'll have to reread some history.
Quote:


It seems like there's double standards everywhere -
Saddam ran a dire regime: put sanctions on his nation starve his people, cut off supplies etc etc.




Saddam was the one starving his people.
Quote:


Kim Jong runs a dire regime: feed him up, send the money over, look after him - he's not that bad (ask his people!)




So instead of us "supporting a dire regime", which you hate it when we do, and instead of us using military force, which is a big NO NO in liberalthink, we shouldj ust allow him to build and sell nuclear weapons. Thats some liberal logic for ya right there! Great idea!
Quote:


Hitler runs a dire regime: let him rise up to ridiculous heady hights of armed to the teeth power, and then actually wage war on the world in the most threatening manner until he has spent 3 years taking over most of Europe, and advancing his empire in every direction, before directly stepping in. (Sure I know the USA supplied a few planes, pilots and some financial aid to the UK before 1942. However wouldn't you say Hitler's World Domination rap was pretty threatening from way back before the war even started? That it was more poised, sharpened, definite and empowered than any of the middle east nations - by a lightyear or 2. Was action taken?)



I didn't even read all of that. Learn to type in sentances and paragraphs and i'll gladly tear it to shreds as well.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: CJay]
    #2772577 - 06/07/04 06:42 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
As if US aid is saving people, oh sorry the dictators are doing fine
- Looked at Africa lately?




Step 1) watch "black hawk down", then read on what the US did in that region
Step 2) stop being a fool
Quote:


- Team players till the end! Shit you are starting to sound like Hitler with this world dominance rap.




CAn you quote me where Hitler spoke of "World" dominance? Mein Kampf talks about his quest for Living Space only throughout Europe. Maybe this is from the "History of the World where Only One Terrorist Attack Happened on US Soil at the Hands of Middle Eastern Terrorists" history book. Also, how exactly does wanting us t oNOT take place in a world government mean that I want us to have world domination? Wouldn't us doing what hte UN wants be giving the UN this hitler-esque world domination? something to ponder..
Quote:


Aren't Truth & Justice supposed to be the 2 cornerstones of the American way?




You are confusing "the American way" with "Superman", the TV show. He was about Truth, Justice AND the American way. Things such as the Bill of Rights and the constitution are the cornerstones of the "American way". Good try though
Quote:


So what happens when NKorea stop playing? And they've spent all the money you've given them on Nukes, fed up a great big army with the aid that was supposed to go to civillians and decide they want to spit the dummy?




*sigh*
1) The US and the rest of the international community isn't worried about korea BUYING nukes, they are concerned with a dualpurpose reactor in North Korea that DID have human monitors in place to ensure that they weren't building nukes. If these monitors were in place, how would they get the nukes? They fucking wouldn't, Einstein.

2) ugh
Quote:


Will it be sanctions and then agresive war again? Except against real WMD, because you let him away with it?



Nope, read why. Fun teaching you a lesson, Class begins tomorrow at 5.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2773586 - 06/08/04 12:57 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Step 1) watch "black hawk down",

That's where you get your history from is it?

Step 2) stop being a fool

:rolleyes:

They fucking wouldn't, Einstein.

:rolleyes:

CAn you quote me where Hitler spoke of "World" dominance? Mein Kampf talks about his quest for Living Space only throughout Europe.

He had his generals draw up plans for invading India when he thought he had a chance against the Russians in mid-41. His plan was world dominance.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2773907 - 06/08/04 05:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You are confusing "the American way" with "Superman", the TV show. He was about Truth, Justice AND the American way. Things such as the Bill of Rights and the constitution are the cornerstones of the "American way". Good try though





Ahh as I suspected. Truth and justice have nothing to do with the American way...


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2773937 - 06/08/04 06:00 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Hitler was extending his empire in every direction - East, West, North, South - throughout Europe into Asia, Africa....open your eyes.
This guy wanted one thing. And he had the means and he was far more aggressive and dangerous than any dictator about today......yet the USA did nothing for 'freedom' during his ascension to power.
However you are keen as mustard to get into second rate dictator's nations, people who pose no valid threat to the USA or to Europe......
But people who have a lot of oil and a lot of poppies......

germin8tiion8ion: 'Why would pre-war Germany need any "help"?'
- To support the people and show solidarity in the international community before a mad dictator had had a chance to convince them the only way out of their hell-hole existence was to hand over their reason to him.


I'll read some books when you open your eyes

So you get your history and values off black hawk down, not superman then. Sounds like you're as dumb as me. Well I guess that's the way US culture feeds it's big lines - via TV and Hollywood.


By the way I know Osama has not been caught - maybe you should read a book on rhetoric.
But thanks for qualifying - no he hasn't been caught. Instead he has been used as an excuse to terrorise a subcontinent, impinge on people's freedoms and generally throw aside reason.
And back to the first WTC attempt, his name was certainly bandied about by the US government and the media.

Having a reactor isn't the only way to get nuclear warhead grade radioactive material......I mean you guys were pretty convinced saddam had his ways despite all those sanctions. I don't think it's too hard to get these things when you are pals with china and know a lot of the shady avenues of power in Asia. There's still a lot of the old soviet stuff floating around for starters.
The US intelligence on Saddam's WMD wasn't a patch...I'm sure you've got Kim sussed out. No way he could be doing things you don't know about.

N.Korea isn't prewar Germany, but it's a hell of a lot closer than Iraq. The army is one of the most powerful in the world...and they have real WMD. And I think Kim likes the power game quite a lot, it's not just about the money.

Just a lot of righteous speak and thinly veiled material interests - You want an example? uuuummmmm - looked at Iraq lately?

germin8tion8ion: 'So instead of us "supporting a dire regime", which you hate it when we do, and instead of us using military force, which is a big NO NO in liberalthink, we shouldj ust allow him (saddam)to build and sell nuclear weapons'
- No how about - don't support him, don't sell arms and precursors to WMD to him. Anyway where are these nukes?
DON'T SUPPORT HIM, DON'T USE UNPROVOKED MILITARY FORCE - it's quite simple

Shame you can't us this massive power you brag about to ensure any food aid etc goes to civillians and the people who need it rather than handing it straight to the trusty dictators of the world. You seem to have enough power to do everything else you please.

you don't have to cowtow to the UN, you could just try respecting it. The UN isn't a hitler-esque world domination body. When you join an organisation you have a certain responsibility to it, that is if your word counts for anything.

The UN was carrying out inspections, Saddam was impotised....The path of reason was being followed. Till the US government ran out of time to see through the only outcome it was considering. It couldn't be left for any truth or justice to fully emerge...the war had to be fought while the pretext was still strong.

Can't wait for the next history lesson germ!


Edited by CJay (06/08/04 06:21 AM)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2773961 - 06/08/04 06:38 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

So by your definition then JFK sending 'freedom fighters' into Cuba was state sponsored terrorism.

and Reagan had a ball in Nicaragua sponsoring terrorism too.

The US government is, and has been, as naughty as any other that it deplores.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2774030 - 06/08/04 08:13 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

It seems to be you who is not defining terrorism correctly, since you love your books so much perhaps you should look up 'terrorism' in a dictionary.

I'm afraid that wearing uniforms or not, has nothing to do with it.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Xlea321]
    #2774173 - 06/08/04 09:25 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Im sorry, I guess that torturing and slaughtering tens of thousands of people is not really an invasion, sorry.

What evidence do you have he was "torturing and slaughtering tens of thousands of people?" There was the US approved putdown of the rebellions post 1991 when the US allowed Saddam to abuse the no-fly zone and use helicopter gunships, but in the last 12 years what rebellion has there been? Certainly the vast bulk of the mass graves that have been found are from the 80's when Saddam was so close to Bush and Reagan it was dubbed "the love affair".




Your kidding me right?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2930739.stm

Its almost assumed collective knowledge that he had torture chambers the entire time still in use.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2774335 - 06/08/04 10:43 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Nope - one of the things Blair and Bush were desperate to find were recent mass graves. The vast bulk of them were from ten plus years ago.

He's killed thousands but he did the OVERWHELMING bulk of his killing when he was so close to Washington it was dubbed "the love affair".


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2774371 - 06/08/04 11:12 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Yes Saddam was a mean old son of a gun - to say the least

'One man said he had spent eight years inside, just for attending Friday prayers. He prayed too much and was seen as a dangerous radical.'

However it seems he showed little support for religious fervour....the opposite infact

He doesn't seem like a big Al-Quada supporter, yet Bush quite consistently lumps them together.

Why was his abhorrable regime selected above other equally abhorrable regimes?....Sure the argument for invasion was WMD, but we all know that has been the thinnest part of the plot so far. I just can't help but remember Colin Powell with that irrefutable proof....And where are the WMD?

It just wasn't a genuine line, and to me that brings everything into doubt since it was the main thrust of the argument for invasion. And really the only thrust since the moral argument could be applied to many nations, yet none of them are being invaded in the name of freedom.

And why was his abhorrable regime respected by the US government throughout the 80's when he was still the same dictator, ruling his people in the same way?

To me the moral argument falls down there. If the moral argument for 'freeing' the Iraqi people was genuine, how could exactly the same people who state that argument have been happy to be in bed with him for so long?

It's bad all round.


Edited by CJay (06/08/04 11:37 AM)


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: CJay]
    #2774499 - 06/08/04 12:17 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well, we drew the line when he invaded Kuwait in '91, then had a cease fire. On the numberous violations the UN chose to do nothing so we finally went back in. And they mass graves are from the 80's?? I never remember seeing reports on how old the bodies were.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Xlea321]
    #2775131 - 06/08/04 04:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OVERWHELMING bulk



Bet that makes the minority feel MUCH better.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS pe [Re: Redo]
    #2776584 - 06/09/04 12:58 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

On the numberous violations the UN chose to do nothing so we finally went back in.

So will Bush be invading Israel next? They've violated a hell of a lot more UN resolutions over longer period of time than Saddam ever has.

And they mass graves are from the 80's?? I never remember seeing reports on how old the bodies were.

Yeah - vast bulk from the 80's, some from the post-gulf war rebellion when Bush left the shi'ites and Kurds swinging in the wind and let Saddam abuse the no-fly zone with helicopter gunships. A weak Saddam was considered more beneficial to the American cause than a strong fundamentalist regime.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Terrorists look for a path TO peace - but the path IS peace [Re: GazzBut]
    #2785638 - 06/11/04 04:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Most terrorist groups have their own policies. Does this mean you would no longer view them as terrorists?




I'm assuming that your ever changing definition of "terrorist" means that McVeigh and Co were State Sponsored Terrorists, right?
Quote:


How tedious.




Don't blame me for your lack of ability to define "terrorism". You said people that killed innocents, or some such 5th grade simplistic answer, were terrorists. I asked if drunk drivers were terrorists, they do that too, ya know.
Quote:


Giving aid is passively trying to help a country or its people. Interfering/invading is actively trying to further our own agenda, sometimes under the guise of trying to help. Told you it was simple didnt I?




Maybe you could "simple" it out for me some more and show why we'd have a constitutional obligation to help these people without trying to make it somehow benefit us?
Quote:


Next you will be asking for proof that the earth is round. The fact that your own country sold precursors for WMD to Iraq in the 80's should be a fairly big clue though. Guess who lent the Iraqis the money to buy it...




Alex has been trying this ruse out for a while, let me make sure I got what you are saying. After the US sold saddam precursors (Which isn't true, you don't have a "precursor" for a living organism such as anthrax), and after we funded him to have WMD's, then how was it a lie to say that saddam had WMD's?
Quote:


Very low quality joke.Do you always do that when the truths a little uncomfortable for you?




No, only when I'm arguing with someone as unsophisticated and as juvenlie as you.
Quote:


Utter gibberish. You dont really know what you are talking about do you? Just spouting off your dumb old daddy's opinions I should imagine, with a touch of Fox news thrown in to make you feel inter-lek-chal.



UN Resolution 641 . Read it and weep. You never addressed your wonderful misinterpretation of a "contraction", I doubt you ever will. did you call my father dumb? I'll make sure that the mods see that, Flame's aren't tolerated here. And as for me being "intellectual". I'm not the one that isn't intelligent enough to narrow down what I mean by "terrorism". And by "isn't", I, of course, mean "is not", like I did in the previous example. Thanks.


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