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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale, Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11852261 -

and the proof is all around you. you just don't feel like admitting to it,

:lol: And of course your interpretation of all this "proof" is the true reflection of reality. How arrogant imo. And ignorant.

Maybe best you don't want to debate further. (but I bet you will)


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Icelander]
    #11852327 -

:lol: And of course your interpretation of all this "proof" is the true reflection of reality. How arrogant imo. And ignorant.

i honestly don't know what you even mean by this. remember what happens when you make assumptions, you look like an ass.

i think it's pretty arrogant for you to be so sure of your beliefs. but enough with the judging, it really is unnecessary and gets in the way. i thought a forum of such rational thinkers would be beyond that, i guess not.

at this point in time, with our limited measuring abilities, you won't find proof in the sense of something being written down on paper. what would proof look like to you anyway? like i said it isn't measurable, but you can see the effects of this great 'it'.

order is the most obvious of these effects and i'd love to hear you argue against it. there is order everywhere, perfect order. order that we couldn't reproduce if we wanted to, so we're lesser than that which ordered it. the universe, nature, god is what ordered it. they're synonymous terms to me and i'm sure you'll agree they're responsible for the order. the order of atomic or molecular solids is perfect. the way dna produces organisms, given favorable conditions, is perfect. the very fact that dna is, is pretty astonishing. if you don't know much about it plz go read a cell molecular bio book.

i can go on and on with examples of extravagant order, but it's beyond this. it's about knowing. and it doesn't come from reading an internet forum, a book, or listening to a guru. it comes from inside of you. but if you don't have the capacity, or don't think you do, then of course you'll argue the other side of the argument until you die. what the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

i used to be like you, but once upon a time my prover got pwned. now it's quite obvious to me. and i feel bad for you.


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11852460 -

Quote:
Why is it that people preserve their notion of a perfect god, so strongly?


Because god is omnipotent by definition, anything otherwise is not worthy of being called god.
dummy your posts are GOLDEN. :sun:


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11852782 -

dummy said:
:lol: And of course your interpretation of all this "proof" is the true reflection of reality. How arrogant imo. And ignorant.

i honestly don't know what you even mean by this. remember what happens when you make assumptions, you look like an ass.

i think it's pretty arrogant for you to be so sure of your beliefs. but enough with the judging, it really is unnecessary and gets in the way. i thought a forum of such rational thinkers would be beyond that, i guess not.

at this point in time, with our limited measuring abilities, you won't find proof in the sense of something being written down on paper. what would proof look like to you anyway? like i said it isn't measurable, but you can see the effects of this great 'it'.

order is the most obvious of these effects and i'd love to hear you argue against it. there is order everywhere, perfect order. order that we couldn't reproduce if we wanted to, so we're lesser than that which ordered it. the universe, nature, god is what ordered it. they're synonymous terms to me and i'm sure you'll agree they're responsible for the order. the order of atomic or molecular solids is perfect. the way dna produces organisms, given favorable conditions, is perfect. the very fact that dna is, is pretty astonishing. if you don't know much about it plz go read a cell molecular bio book.

i can go on and on with examples of extravagant order, but it's beyond this. it's about knowing. and it doesn't come from reading an internet forum, a book, or listening to a guru. it comes from inside of you. but if you don't have the capacity, or don't think you do, then of course you'll argue the other side of the argument until you die. what the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

i used to be like you, but once upon a time my prover got pwned. now it's quite obvious to me. and i feel bad for you.


This post certainly has a lot of personalisms in it. But whatever.

Your ideas are  really nice but not true. Actually nature is not perfect order at all. Our categories of things may give the illusion of perfect order but it is not so. Take one look at a stillborn baby and you will see. Errors in DNA. Nature is constantly making errors. This is in part how evolution works. So whatever is going on is not proof of any conscious god or conscious anything. It's a process and beyond that we don't really have evidence. And that is why you can't present any. But of course you know what is going on because you used to be like me but now you know better.:tongue:

I'm so glad you feel bad for me. I feel so much better about myself now. Thanks.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: soldatheero]
    #11852913 -

thats why i mentioned favorable conditions, obviously things don't always go to plan. but it's rarely the plan's fault. never the less it is amazing. like i said; what the thinker thinks, the prover proves. you lack experience, there is no way to change your mind conceptually. getting frustrated with each other would be silly of us.


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

Edited by dummy (01/18/10 01:06 PM)

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11853031 -

Even in the most favorable conditions there is error. You just might not notice. There is no such thing as perfection unless you are talking about the perfect mess or something like that.

obviously things don't always go to plan. but it's rarely the plan's fault.

I really have to wonder what this statement means? Who's plan? and What would be considered "fault"? There is no fault or conscious plan to a process. It's just something that happens because it can. Now actually I remain agnostic on the whole god issue but without concrete evidence for it, it doesn't enter into rational debate imo.

Yeah, I have no illusions about you being able to see things from my POV so yeah getting frustrated doesn't help. :wink:

Still we're here to debate the issues. So I have no problem with a little heat.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11853092 -

Quote:
remember what happens when you make assumptions, you look like an ass.

i thought a forum of such rational thinkers would be beyond that



*ASSUMPTION ALERT!*

*ASSUMPTION ALERT!*


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11853479 -

"you lack experience, there is no way to change your mind conceptually"

He's decades older than you. :picard:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Poid]
    #11854620 -

dna is a plan


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11854633 -

So? :shrug:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: idmtrance]
    #11857955 -

idmtrance said:
"I can understand that you do not see my definition of responsibility as being appropriate but I do not really see how yours distinguishes itself significantly..?"

from the princeton university press, which defines responsibility as

"responsibility - a form of trustworthiness; the trait of being answerable to someone for something or being responsible for one's conduct; "he holds a position of great responsibility""

The difference is that your definition cannot be correct because God holds no responsibility.  How would one even appropriate such a status to God? If he's all powerful, there is no thing which 'holds' God back, nor is there another God which demands of him a certain standard over which what he/she/it does. We could put our own standards toward God, but it is meaningless if God is omnipotent.

I cannot accept your definition because it belies your argument.  God also, does not have to work, or do anything if he is omnipotent.  If God holds all power, then he holds the ability to do nothing and still do as he wishes (Is this not a form a power in-itself?)



Firstly - some dictionary is not the ultimate source of the meaning of a word. Barely. It is more of a helpful tool.

Secondly - these definitions are not contrary to what I was talking about.

A form of trustworthiness - if God is omnipotent then he has responsibility for making the world how he wants it. We could say that we can trust that god will fulfill this plan.

Being answerable to - this definition is more of a pragmatic one (hence helpful hint). This example comes from industry/business use. In such cultures, certain people must answer to others, and it is generally the person who is responsible for something that must answer to situations pertaning to it


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11866163 -

"it has nothing to do with religion,frankly i can't stand religion with its quaint traditions and fallacious teachings. and the proof is all around you. you just don't feel like admitting to it, i suppose. we can argue all day and night, i won't sway your opinion and don't really care to.

it isn't about proof, our physics can't prove it yet. just because your sciences are impotent doesn't make it less real. was the earth flat before we realized it was a sphere? it's about knowing. and in this was it is subjective, but in a way everything is subjective. so the subjective/objective argument isn't really worth debate either."

:picard:

Just because you believe it so, doesn't mean it is so my friend. Proof is not essential to only communicating ideas to others, but to validate your own ontological/metaphysical conception of the world. You clearly haven't presented anything of validity, nor a concept of any sort besides a monistic conception of God.  How does monism prevail over other conceptions of God?

The philosophers say that the concept of God is endlessly debatable.

You sound angry.  Try and take it easy.  No reason to become upset over such debate, otherwise no real debate would happen over such issues (is it not that the best thought is made in  reverence, respect, and awe towards what you would say is "God"?, or the nature of being?)

Namaste

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11866205 -

"A form of trustworthiness - if God is omnipotent then he has responsibility for making the world how he wants it. We could say that we can trust that god will fulfill this plan. "

This is the point of my argument, God cannot be responsible for making the world how he wanted it.  He has no reason to hold responsibility over himself if he has all-power, he would simply summon the power to do exactly what he intended, instantly.

And when you say "we could say", we could also, "could not say".  We cannot pick either, because we can only entertain both ideas. So this does not validate the fact that 'we could' hold him to a certain standard.  Even if we did hold him to a standard, how would we ever know what he intended to do with creation?

I apologize if your take this personally, I only intend to attack your philosophy, not you personally.  I did not state an 'ultimate source' of a meaning of a word, nor did I imply that your definition was different.  I was arguing about the metaphysical contradictions that are inherent in your initial post.

-Namaste

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: idmtrance]
    #11870242 -

it seems like you just keep taking a pragmatic use of the word responsibility that comes up a lot in workplace/ social / legal situations

rather than the more essential definition stemming from 'response-ability'


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: idmtrance]
    #11925040 -

you can endlessly argue anything, i don't care what some philosopher says. anyone who has a rational philosophy is a philosopher you do not need a degree for that. i believe there is one truth, and the only point to debating god(s) is to get to that truth. you're right, i can't convey my proof to anyone. it's in my experiences. no one can change my opinion because what i've experienced exceeds any human conceptualization. and i can't change theirs nor do i care to. i know what i know and i'm pretty certain at some point all of humanity will too. it's a pointless debate, there is no way to prove it. you can however feel it's effects. then you can choose whether or not to believe that it is responsible for these effects. it's akin to mass, or current. you can't touch it, you can't see it, it's hard to define, but you know it's there because it has certain effects. listing these effects is pretty much as close to proof as i can get but you won't buy it. you have your own creeds.


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11925052 -

So you are special and perceptive to God, but others aren't?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Poid]
    #11925172 -

i'm not special but i guess i am perceptive to it. god is not a good word to be using for this 'thing'. but i'm not more perceptive than the next person who is perceptive. ever notice how there are some people that think like me, and some that don't? and it seems to me this has nothing to do with background, education or lack there of, or anything else that one might think could influence such ideas. i don't know what it is, but i know that there is something more than what your senses are feeding you. a result of my perspective personality and the experiences i've had.


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11925180 -

The person that perceives the absolute isn't special, its the absolute that is being perceived that is special


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11925227 -

dummy said:
ever notice how there are some people that think like me, and some that don't?

Yes and the ones who think like you invest a lot of uncomfortable emotions in that idea, IME.



dummy said:
and it seems to me this has nothing to do with background, education or lack there of, or anything else that one might think could influence such ideas.

Bullshit, Tarzan doesn't believe in God, or in anything for that matter...:tarzan:



dummy said:
i don't know what it is, but i know that there is something more than what your senses are feeding you. a result of my perspective personality and the experiences i've had.

Of course there's more than what we can perceive--how does this mean that God exists, though?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Poid]
    #11925282 -

i think the word god is confusing you. questions like that sort of imply you're not going to be able to understand.


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale, Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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