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Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Another God Paradox
    #11840116 -

This is a paradox that I think should be given more emphasis in religious-nonreligious dialogue:

That some people are born into worlds where they are given no reasonable chance to discover the said religion.


I started thinking about this after thinking about the egocentric nature of most religious viewpoits -
'MY god is real and he loves ME'

And the typical paradox of evil

eg

if god is in control of everything (omnipotent) then why does he allow there to be evil people in the world and let them have the power to torture countless others?

Unless of course, a 'perfect' god is one that relinquishes responsibility of its dominion to humans.

Typically, the person who has the most appropriate ability to do something inherently has the most responsibility to deal with it. God, being omnipotent, can bring anything in line with his will without effort (actually people do not talk much about the effort god takes to deal with the world, and I think they assume that it takes no effort but it might..) and thus if ever the situation of the world was not ideal it would be gods responsibility to take care of it

But he gives it up... he makes individuals responsible for their action

Now, this would not be a problem if people just accepted that God is not omnipotent, he actually leaves most of the earth to the humans to deal with.

Why is it that people preserve their notion of a perfect god, so strongly?

It seems that the illogicality of believing in religions is more of a deterrant than the notion that there is more to the universe and that it is personifiable.

So Why not ask the religious folk what is so bad in believing in a MIGHTY but not omnipotent god. One who is much greater than ourselves, but not a total puppetmaster?

It seems like it would give a lot more sense to religions. Although I think that religions are corrupt at the core, I wonder why the religious folk do not take this softer path, retaining their belief in a higher power without the logical contradictions?


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11840168 -

What surprises me more than anything is how obsessed posters in a psychedelic forum are with traditional concepts of religion and then beat it like a dead horse over and over and over and over and over again as if some sense can be made of it. :lol:

Almost nobody want's the world the way it is.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Icelander]
    #11840279 -

Well, we do have human brains


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11840550 -

Good point, unfortunately.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11843276 -

"Typically, the person who has the most appropriate ability to do something inherently has the most responsibility to deal with it. God, being omnipotent, can bring anything in line with his will without effort (actually people do not talk much about the effort god takes to deal with the world, and I think they assume that it takes no effort but it might..) and thus if ever the situation of the world was not ideal it would be gods responsibility to take care of it"

Omnipotence means all powerful. This however, does not entail that creation is his/her/it's responsibility.  It just means they hold all power over it.  Responsibility is a concept which one holds another being to a certain standard.  That being said, if God is omnipotent, he need not heed anyone, or anything.  God just does as he/she/it wishes.

"But he gives it up... he makes individuals responsible for their action"

Giving up implies that he could not do something, but if he is omnipotent, he can do all things.

"Why is it that people preserve their notion of a perfect god, so strongly?"

Faith. Ignorance. Desire. Fear.

Edited by idmtrance (01/16/10 07:14 PM)

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: idmtrance]
    #11843690 -

It's very simple.

Fags and non-believers go to hell. If you were unfortunate enough to be born in a country that does not have access to bibles, you're just SOL and are going to hell too.

We need to stop worrying about this and just accept that a lot of motherfuckin people are gonna burn in hell.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: appleorange]
    #11843746 -

I seriously doubt that anything burns in hell. :shrug:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: idmtrance]
    #11845633 -

idmtrance said:
"Typically, the person who has the most appropriate ability to do something inherently has the most responsibility to deal with it. God, being omnipotent, can bring anything in line with his will without effort (actually people do not talk much about the effort god takes to deal with the world, and I think they assume that it takes no effort but it might..) and thus if ever the situation of the world was not ideal it would be gods responsibility to take care of it"

Omnipotence means all powerful. This however, does not entail that creation is his/her/it's responsibility.  It just means they hold all power over it.  Responsibility is a concept which one holds another being to a certain standard.  That being said, if God is omnipotent, he need not heed anyone, or anything.  God just does as he/she/it wishes.

"But he gives it up... he makes individuals responsible for their action"

Giving up implies that he could not do something, but if he is omnipotent, he can do all things.

"Why is it that people preserve their notion of a perfect god, so strongly?"

Faith. Ignorance. Desire. Fear.


I can understand that you do not see my definition of responsibility as being appropriate but I do not really see how yours distinguishes itself significantly..?

as for 'gives up' and 'gives it up', I think this is all the disambiguation needed


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11845637 -

A lot of people who diss religions just think religious people are idiots. but a lot of smart people are religious. There are just certain beliefs that they hold too strongly to reason around.

What makes me silently laugh inside is that many people who laugh at religious folk are probably just as incapable of seeing the flaws in their own beliefs... because in the end they are all human beings just behaving naturally


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11845684 -

While it's impossible not to behave naturally and everyone has beliefs that could be termed religious that doesn't make belief in a unprovable god reasonable or healthy. And intelligence has only a little to do with wisdom and emotional health is not in the realm of pure intelligence.

So just behaving naturally doesn't insure success. (as in being happy, emotional health, living well with others etc.)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11846044 -

Is the infinite concerned about controlling the finite parts or would it not allow all potential & possible expressions to unfold?


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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11851761 -

"I can understand that you do not see my definition of responsibility as being appropriate but I do not really see how yours distinguishes itself significantly..?"

from the princeton university press, which defines responsibility as

"responsibility - a form of trustworthiness; the trait of being answerable to someone for something or being responsible for one's conduct; "he holds a position of great responsibility""

The difference is that your definition cannot be correct because God holds no responsibility.  How would one even appropriate such a status to God? If he's all powerful, there is no thing which 'holds' God back, nor is there another God which demands of him a certain standard over which what he/she/it does. We could put our own standards toward God, but it is meaningless if God is omnipotent.

I cannot accept your definition because it belies your argument.  God also, does not have to work, or do anything if he is omnipotent.  If God holds all power, then he holds the ability to do nothing and still do as he wishes (Is this not a form a power in-itself?)

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Chronic7]
    #11851771 -

Chronic777 said:
Is the infinite concerned about controlling the finite parts or would it not allow all potential & possible expressions to unfold?


:peace: Well put.

Om shanti shanti shanti

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: appleorange]
    #11851776 -

1/10  :FattyNoneck:

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: idmtrance]
    #11852095 -

dude, god is everything. god is evil, god is love. everything, including yourself and the environment you're in at any given moment or any place ever conceivable or able to be experienced and much more that you can't experience at this time, is god. god is just a label, don't worry about it. god is something much greater than can be conceptualized. some parts of god don't know they're parts of god, so they hate themselves and all other parts of god. they're confused. god is everything you've ever,ever known. the feelings, the sights, the sounds, the tastes, the memories, your peers, all you are, it's all just part of the great it.


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11852173 -

Your mere subjective opinion about "god" might well be just as or more misguided as those you claim don't know they're parts of god.


Everybody as an opinion about "god" and of course that opinion is just a reflection of their attitudes and prejudices.

All we know is that something is happening as far as I can honestly tell. That something could be a "mindless" process. Call that god if you will, it would make as much sense as what you are claiming.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Icelander]
    #11852190 -

i don't think it's as subjective as you think. if it was then there would be many of these 'gods' and that model simply doesn't make sense. the experience of learning about 'god' might be subjective, but in the end 'it' is unchanging and ever present.


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11852207 -

No proof. Just talk. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11852208 -

I agree completely. But most of our population is made up of idiots.

People who will buy what they see on T.V., say what they hear on the

Radio, and believe what they experience in church. The name of the game

is mass mind control, and most churches are professionals. Most people

would not accept what you say simply because they just don't have the

brain capacity to interpret slightly complex speech or thought. I grew

up in an extremely religious and uneducated family. As I chose to

expand my mind, I often thought about God, existence, karma, and

general questions about life. My mother could only answer these

questions with "God works in mysterious ways". After a few years of

soul searching I abandoned my christian roots and became an Atheist.


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OM MADNE PADME OBIWAN LUKE HUM....

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Re: Another God Paradox [Re: dummy]
    #11852246 -

it has nothing to do with religion,frankly i can't stand religion with its quaint traditions and fallacious teachings. and the proof is all around you. you just don't feel like admitting to it, i suppose. we can argue all day and night, i won't sway your opinion and don't really care to.

it isn't about proof, our physics can't prove it yet. just because your sciences are impotent doesn't make it less real. was the earth flat before we realized it was a sphere? it's about knowing. and in this was it is subjective, but in a way everything is subjective. so the subjective/objective argument isn't really worth debate either.


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People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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