Quote:

If it were important (for that reason), these qualities should be looked for:

Having the ability to speak plainly
Having kindness and compassion towards the self and others

Not having anger/anxiety/frustration/etc.
Not having the desire to kill others
Not having the desire to take others possessions
Not having the desire to be less than truthful
Not wasting sexual energy on a constant quest for gratification
Not wasting mental/emotional energy on excessive drug use

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Icelander said:

I think there are some lucky folk you find enough pleasure in material life to be fully satisfied with it

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It is not luck, if we were to find satisfaction in objects we would perpetually be in delusion for eternity...there would be no thirst for truth at all

If we did not suffer the loss of enjoyment of objects, we would not look to a deeper experience of what enjoyment really is, if material objects held true pleasure, you would probably still be playing with your first teething ring or rattle!

When you find that objects will not satisfy, you still enjoy them, your just not so pulled about by them, only then do you really enjoy them, as then you are just enjoying yourself, not enjoying some thing

The very word enjoy mean en-joy, ie the enjoy-er brings the joy to the experience

ScavengerType said:

how are we qualifying enlightenment?

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Icelander said:

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Material life is all an animal has. If it's not enough you're in trouble.

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I know the source of happiness & material objects, so i understand how material objects appear to give happiness

OrgoneConclusion said:

Quote:

If it were important (for that reason), these qualities should be looked for:

Having the ability to speak plainly
Having kindness and compassion towards the self and others

Not having anger/anxiety/frustration/etc.
Not having the desire to kill others
Not having the desire to take others possessions
Not having the desire to be less than truthful
Not wasting sexual energy on a constant quest for gratification
Not wasting mental/emotional energy on excessive drug use

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Of course, an unenlightened being has no clue what morals/behaviours an enlightened being has. So everyone makes up their own personal template based upon their own moral standards, correct?

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Well we do have clues. That's what "the path" is about. But a person can follow a path for many years without finding what they seek. And this should shed some light on the mistake of desiring above all to know who is enlightened, or even what things an enlightened person does, rather than -what- enlightenment is. The list, and others like it, may be refined by a single person, or may be an amalgamation of the values of many cultures. Either way, the value of such lists is simply to bring forth the idea that enlightenment IS possible, and create a level of mental calmness which allows the practitioner to go beyond lists. A person can create a template, flawed or not, and live by it to the best of their ability, but this alone will not be enough.

If enlightenment is possible, if follows that at least one person realized it without a definitive pre-made list. If this is true, the only value of a list would be in making the task easier, or rather, shorter, but that the list is not necessary. I would suggest that morality stems from experience, just as lists do, and that since most people have some level of morals, but have not realized enlightenment, that something more than lists and morals are required to realize enlightenment, or to possibly recognize it in another.

The wrong attitude would be to adopt morals as a means to an end, or simply because they are in a list, just as it would be wrong to assume without doubt that an individual is enlightened. All things must be examined with skeptical eyes. In this light, it seems you are well on your way to being enlightened.

Fraggin said:

I think if one had to conjecture a method to eveluate enlightenment, I'd have to say my first attempt would be to guage it by how little of a shit someone gave about anything at all.

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Ahimsa said:

If enlightenment is all to do with awareness then a more enlightened being can bring more awareness into someone else's life. The latter can then recognise the more enlightened person because of this experience. The degree by which your awareness has been raised due to the influence of another should be a measure for that one's enlightenment.

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I do agree, HOWEVER...

Awareness can not be raised, ego can be removed then it seems like awareness is raised

Take for example the Universal & the Personal
When the personal is removed the universal is as it is, it has not gained anything
Gaining the universal is from the standpoint of the personal, which is what must be removed in the first place! This is how subtle the ego creeps back in...