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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
    #9261678 -

Veritas said:
Again, how do you know what internal experience is being externalized via beating his head against a wall?


If someone was beating his head against a wall, it'd be blatantly obvious that he's confused inside and not feeling too conscious.

Anyways, I have to work now, and will continue the debate later.

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
    #9261680 -

Obvious?  Highly suggestive, certainly, but not obvious.

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
    #9261682 -

Icelander said:
If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

No guessing needed.

Yes guessing is needed. There could be many reasons why someone would be beating their head against the wall.


If someone were beating his head against a wall, it's obvious he's not very self-aware.

No guesswork needed.

But I'm off to work and will be back.

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
    #9261686 -

ok here's my take on this
I was wondering what the hell does s & b stand for, but the broccoli issue made everything clear.

s stands for sauce
b stands for broccoli

s likes broccoli (goes well with a vegetable)
b does not want to eat himself. (? preconceived notion)


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
    #9261697 -

deranger said:
Icelander said:
If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

No guessing needed.

Yes guessing is needed. There could be many reasons why someone would be beating their head against the wall.


If someone were beating his head against a wall, it's obvious he's not very self-aware.

No guesswork needed.

But I'm off to work and will be back.


Wrong again. At least your posts are consistent.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
    #9261712 -

deranger said:
If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?


deranger said:
If a woman is crying because she is being verbally abused by her husband, are you not aware of her emotional state?


In both these situations, you presuppose that the man is acting because he is in sheer madness, or that the woman is crying because she is being verbally abused.

Obviously, if one knows these causes beforehand, one is aware of their emotional states--but the point is that one can never be fully sure of the cause of any individual's action (and I'd in fact argue that one can never truly be sure as to the cause of one's own actions).  If we're simply given the behavioral aspect of Bush, or the behavioral aspects of this man or woman, we can only offer judgements or guesses--true awareness is impossible.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
    #9261721 -

The milk keeps me young at heart, what can I say.  :grin:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
    #9262238 -

Well, we have made amazing strides forward today.

Millenia from now, people will recall the great 'Veritas/Deranger Debate' in hushed tones of reverance at the epiphanies unearthed on that cold November day. And they will bow their heads and give thanks to the intellectual giants that blazed a path before them.

Amen.


--------------------

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
    #9263436 -

Veritas said:
Obvious?  Highly suggestive, certainly, but not obvious.


Someone bashing his head against a wall is obviously not very self-aware.  They are attached to their emotions, which isn't very self-aware.  Obvious.  It doesn't take any thought to recognize the dude is not very aware of his self and the emotions he is identified with.

Edited for repeated personal comments.  Please refrain from personalisms.~V

Edited by Veritas (11/18/08 09:15 AM)

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
    #9263442 -

Icelander said:
deranger said:
Icelander said:
If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

No guessing needed.

Yes guessing is needed. There could be many reasons why someone would be beating their head against the wall.


If someone were beating his head against a wall, it's obvious he's not very self-aware.

No guesswork needed.

But I'm off to work and will be back.


Wrong again. At least your posts are consistent.:crazy2:


Oh, I'm wrong.  That must make you right.

:crazy2:

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
    #9263443 -

deCypher said:
In both these situations, you presuppose that the man is acting because he is in sheer madness, or that the woman is crying because she is being verbally abused.


How do you know I presume in such a situation?  I am not you.  You may presume, but I am aware that those people are not very self-aware atm of their acts.  When someone is crying, they are emotional.  Not very self-aware.  Emo = not very self aware.  Local cat killers = emo = not very self-aware.  Get my drift?

When a woman is crying because of her husband's emotional abuse, I do not need to presume her emotional state.  I am aware of her emotional state.  You can presume all you like, but remember, you are not everyone.

Quote:
Obviously, if one knows these causes beforehand, one is aware of their emotional states--


This isn't about the causes beforehand, it's about the now.

Quote:
but the point is that one can never be fully sure of the cause of any individual's action (and I'd in fact argue that one can never truly be sure as to the cause of one's own actions).


Again, this isn't about the cause.  It's about what is occurring within the person's state of being in that very moment.

Quote:
If we're simply given the behavioral aspect of Bush, or the behavioral aspects of this man or woman, we can only offer judgements or guesses--true awareness is impossible.



I understand.  When this man and this women are acting out in those ways (emotional), they are not very self-aware.  The man bashing his head against the wall is obviously emo - this is not a very aware state of being.  The woman crying is emo - this is not a very self-aware state of being.

Someone who is self-aware enough would not bash their head against a wall, nor would they cry in deep emotion, nor would they be as dumbshit as Bush.

Edited by deranger (11/17/08 11:47 PM)

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9263448 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Well, we have made amazing strides forward today.

Millenia from now, people will recall the great 'Veritas/Deranger Debate' in hushed tones of reverance at the epiphanies unearthed on that cold November day. And they will bow their heads and give thanks to the intellectual giants that blazed a path before them.

Amen.


Entertaining, innit.

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
    #9263628 -

deCypher said:
So in other words, you do believe that meditation ceases all beliefs.

I think no matter how far one goes into deep meditation, some beliefs will maintain their existence.  You still believe that you exist, for instance.


Missed this one.

Keep it about the IDEAS & not the poster, please. ~V

In a deep state of meditation (say having been in a constant state of meditation for 10 hours), and having practiced meditation for years, thoughts slow down to the point where there will be no thoughts being processed for minutes.  The mind is completely absent of thought for minutes, all there is is the watching, conscious awareness.

Now, a belief is a thought.

Tell me, if there is are no thoughts occurring within one's mind, how can there be belief?

Edited by Veritas (11/18/08 09:13 AM)

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
    #9264028 -

Quote:
deranger said:You may presume, but I am aware that those people are not very self-aware atm of their acts. 


No, you're judging that those people are not very self-aware.  Again, being "aware" of another person's mental status implies that you know the absolute truth: something that no mortal can claim.  Obviously it's an easy guess that a woman bashing her head against the wall is less self-aware; the point is that you can't be absolutely certain of this.  She could have a very valid, enlightened reason for bashing her head that you simply don't know.

Quote:
deranger said:Now, a belief is a thought.

Tell me, if there is are no thoughts occurring within one's mind, how can there be belief?


Do you or do you not believe that two plus two does not equal five?

In the former case, even though you weren't aware of the belief (or thought) prior to my asking you, it still existed.  Tacit beliefs may be present no matter what, even if the mind is empty.

To think that one can escape one's belief paradigm is merely yet another belief in the brick wall.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (11/18/08 12:30 AM)

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
    #9264326 -

deCypher said:
No, you're judging that those people are not very self-aware.  Again, being aware implies that you know the absolute truth: something that no mortal can claim.


Quote:
a·ware      (ə-wâr')  Pronunciation Key
adj. 

  1. Having knowledge or cognizance: aware of the difference between the two versions; became aware of faint sound.
  2. Archaic Vigilant; watchful.



first there is awareness, then there is judgment.  judgment does not come before awareness.  If you saw someone blow his brain out with a shotgun, you would first become aware and cognizant of what happened.  however long it takes, the thinking mind will react to the situation.

judgment is of thought and opinion. it is an external layer we attach ourselves to, a blanket over our source of being/awareness.  meditation slows the thinking mind, and makes one aware of his own awareness/consciousness.  this creates a gap in time between awareness, and the thinking/opinionated/judgmental process that the pseuds call mind.  Many haven't experienced this gap.  Many have here, obviously.  psychedelics open this gap temporarily.  daily meditation/watchingngess of the thinking mind opens this gap up more permanently, but subtly over time.  how much of a time-gap one experiences in day-to-day life depends on how much he reflects on the self each day and refrains from indulging in external and mental activities/noises.

Quote:
judge
   /dʒʌdʒ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [juhj] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, judged, judg⋅ing.

8. to form a judgment or opinion of; decide upon critically: You can't judge a book by its cover.

10. to infer, think, or hold as an opinion; conclude about or assess: He judged her to be correct.

11. to make a careful guess about; estimate: We judged the distance to be about four miles.

14. to form an opinion or estimate: I have heard the evidence and will judge accordingly.

15. to make a mental judgment.


so let's take the example of the crying woman.  someone who does not experience this time-gap between awareness and the thinking mind will more than likely instantly judge what is happening to the woman.  they would think, "oh why is she crying, how do i make her stop crying, what do i do - and this questioning prevents one from empathizing).  someone who does have this time gap and is self-aware enough to perceive his own thinking mind, would see the crying woman, and instantly empathize and become aware/cognizant of the woman's emotional state.  it would be a knowing, a feeling and identification with her state of being.  after the gap in time the thinking mind reacts more actively to the situation and thinks of a way to help and heal the crying woman.


deCypher said:
Obviously it's an easy guess that a woman bashing her head against the wall is less self-aware; the point is that you can't be absolutely certain of this.  She could have a very valid, enlightened reason for bashing her head that you simply don't know.


yes, but you would first become aware of the bashing of her head.  if a guy was balling his eyes out whilst bashing his head against a concrete wall, you would become aware that 1)he is emotional and 2)he isn't very self-aware.  if another guy was bashing his head against this concrete wall giggling and laughing until he fell unconscious and cracked his skull, you'd become aware that person was not very self-conscious.  when the rational mind speeds up and activates, then judgment occurs.

Quote:
To think that one can escape one's belief paradigm is merely yet another belief in the brick wall.


meditation is not about escaping anything. it is about becoming aware/cognizant of one's belief paradigm. this is not escaping, it is becoming conscious/lucid/self-aware.  escaping would be to waste one's life watching TV all day.  becoming aware of one's self is staying, it is not escaping.  it is becoming, not running away from one's self.

Edited by deranger (11/18/08 02:15 AM)

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
    #9265034 -

deranger said:
Someone who is self-aware enough would not bash their head against a wall, nor would they cry in deep emotion, nor would they be as dumbshit as Bush.


This sounds like judgment, not awareness.  Why is deep emotion a sign of a lack of self-awareness?  Is "dumbshit" a descriptive term used by your meditation instructors?  :lol:

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
    #9265077 -

Whne a Roshi whacks a meditator with a bamboo stick, he is demonstrating his own lack of awareness and just plain meanness. :yesnod:


--------------------

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
    #9265131 -

Oh, I'm wrong.

An admission of the  obvious. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
    #9265195 -

Careful - thin ice! (no pun intended for a change)


--------------------

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Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9265199 -

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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