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Offlinedawn of a new day
un inglohablante

Registered: 01/16/03
Posts: 117
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
difference between killing and murder?
    #1392638 - 03/19/03 07:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Is there a difference? I believe that any killing of another human is wrong, but then obviously there is the question of self defense. Is it right to kill another person in defense of yourself, and if so, to what extent can you carry this. It can be made very obtuse, as the ongoing pre-emptive strike against Iraq has shown us.
My opinion is that any killing of another human being should be avoided at all costs. People have found countless ways to justify murder throughout the existence of mankind, but it has never been truly righteous. A human being cannot weigh possibly weigh every last bit of evidence and make the judgement on whether or not another human deserves death. We have no way of knowing the future with absolute certainty and none of us have lived flawless lives. A man does not have the right to take life from another prematurely.


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"Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit . . . unnatural?"
- Bill Hicks


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: dawn of a new day]
    #1392654 - 03/19/03 07:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you come to my house and try to kill me or my family I will kill you.

If I come to your house and kill you I will be murdering you.....

Any questions?


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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Offlinedawn of a new day
un inglohablante

Registered: 01/16/03
Posts: 117
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: upupup]
    #1392685 - 03/19/03 07:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There is a difference in the definitions and connotations of the words, but at the root aren't they the same action? Is it right to take someone's life because they have taken or attempted to take others' lives?


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"Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit . . . unnatural?"
- Bill Hicks


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Invisibleenacid
solid funk
Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 183
Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: dawn of a new day]
    #1392709 - 03/19/03 07:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

right and wrong? i dont belive in either, to condone either would condone the existence of a being (eg like god) or power that decides it for me, wich i severly lack faith

i am the only one who decides that
wait so what does that make me?

what im saying is i could almost justify killing because it just might be fun to witness the violence and experience the rush... *almost*

maybe its wrong, or maybe... just maybe it absolutly has no meaning what so ever, maybe it just doesnt matter?

i dont mean to sound like a sick fuck but i dont think its possible to define morals.


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Offlinedawn of a new day
un inglohablante

Registered: 01/16/03
Posts: 117
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: enacid]
    #1392725 - 03/19/03 07:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i dont mean to sound like a sick fuck but i dont think its possible to define morals.




good point


--------------------
"Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit . . . unnatural?"
- Bill Hicks


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: dawn of a new day]
    #1392739 - 03/19/03 07:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I used to think that way until I had children......then I realized that some could not make that choice........

So, put that in context.....

It's murder if I end your life when you are doing nothing.....

It's killing when you come at me with a weapon.......

Your missing the point of what your doing......if your just hanging out and I end your life then I have murderd you.....

If your actions are violent in nature then I am defending my life....and as I said, before I had children I wouldn't have lifted a finger to off you......but as a father I would have to defend myself and my children until they are able to make those decisions themselves......


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Edited by upupup (03/19/03 07:53 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: upupup]
    #1392745 - 03/19/03 07:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you come to my house I will kill you.

Last time I am coming over for dinner!



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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: Swami]
    #1392755 - 03/19/03 07:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Just keep your safety on off and were fine....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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Invisibleenacid
solid funk
Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 183
Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: upupup]
    #1392760 - 03/19/03 07:56 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"Just keep your safety on off"

... on off, on off?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: upupup]
    #1392769 - 03/19/03 08:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"If you come to my house and try to kill me or my family I will kill you."

you mean if you come to my house and try to MURDER me or my family I will kill you?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: dawn of a new day]
    #1393580 - 03/20/03 01:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Unless you're writing for Webster's, Funk & Wagnall's or Oxford, it doesn't matter if you can "define" morality - as long as you ACT morally. True moral action (beyond the work of Kohlberg, Loevinger and others) derives from Compassion. If a maniac can only be stopped from murdering an innocent by the use of deadly force, then the act of saving that innocent's life and potentially other innocents, is a judicious act, a wise act and a compassionate act (for society).

Putting down such a being who defies help and who is inflated with his own power-trip is like a rabid dog. Both are in misery, both are terminal, and the threats to others are so grave that the truly compassionate thing for the greater society lies in eliminating the menace. Compassion does not always manifest in gentleness. A violent, repeated slap to the face may well save the life of an overdose victim.

Murder is evil. Murder embodies no compassion, and as the Good Book says, 'Murderers have no Eternal Life.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAislingGheal
A wave on the ocean
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1393832 - 03/20/03 04:10 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Very well stated Markos, I agree with what you've said. The problem is things aren't always so cut and dry. Here is an example, this happened in Cleveland about 2 years ago;

A man is leaving work, walking to his car at night. Across the street from his car is a tavern from which exits 7 drunken men, all young 24 to 28 year olds, all really bombed. The drunks see this man going to his car and they cross the street and start insulting the man. Barbs are traded and then the drunks jump the man. The man pulls a pocket knife and ends up killing one guy and injuring 2 others. It turns out the drunks were having a bachelor party at the tavern and the man killed was the groom. The men said they were only having some fun with the guy and he over reacted. He was brought up on manslaughter charges but was acquitted months later. He was found guilty of a concealed weapons charge. The family of the deceased cried injustice.

There is a muddy line between assault and combat(i.e. life or death). If you over react to an assault isn't that murder? You might not know it when things go down but you will know it when its over. People have the right to self-defense but not excessive force. If you can't distinguish this line the police will do it for you.

Was the man who was jumped right or wrong morally? If I was in the same situation I'd probably do the same exact thing he did, 7 on 1 can easily get the 1 dead even if they did not intend to kill. But I would be truly haunted by the fact that I killed someone, I would always wonder if I couldn't have defended myself without taking a life.




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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao


Edited by AislingGheal (03/20/03 08:58 AM)


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1394327 - 03/20/03 07:04 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

hiya markos...
a point from a jewish friend of mine (well, raised orthodox, but practicing pagan, i suppose...)
many of us raised in america's "judeo-christian" tradition learned "the 10 commandments" including: "thou shalt not kill" --- jeff stated that a closer translation from the hebrew is "thou shalt not commit murder"
~
so murder might be something close to "the unlawful depriving of a blameless human of his/her life"
while killing (humans) may have justification under certain aspects of the law (ex: self defense, during wartime following legitimate orders, executions by the state, etc...)
even contemporary american law differentiates degrees of murder, and between murder & manslaughter, & negligent homicide, etc...
& then there's civil court cases (remember OJ simpson?)
& there used to be duelling deaths... (knives? pistols at twenty paces?)
~
mmm, in france, if a man catches his wife & her lover in flagrante delecto (sp?) & kills 'em both in a fit of jealous rage, he just  mmight get off scot free... but if he just injures them, he will end up doing some serious time... (or so it used to be, back in the day...)
~
mmm, the time this nutcase (bipolar off his meds & maybe suffering from testosterone poisoning of some sort?) called me & said he was coming for me... well, i called the cops & next time he called (a few minutes later, demanding to talk to my wife :frown: ) i handed the phone to the officer...
but for the next few weeks, i slept with a machete under my bed... and swore that i would shout a warning to him to get the hell outa the house while i called 911, but if he came up the stairs towards the bedrooms (where kids & i were sleeping) with his pet filet knife, that i'd skewer his intestines & shove his twitching carcass down the steps (& i suggested that my wife inform him of my intentions, heh...)(my o my, that was an interesting time... i think i prefer boredom...) (no, i wasn't going after him --- i politely declined offers of a "blanket party" for him, as well as a courtesy discount "hit" from somebody with "family" connections... but dammit, this s.o.b. rubbed me the wrong way, if ya know whatta mean...)(& if there's karmic balancing in this (or a future) lifetime, well, i don't even want to be a witness to his payback(s), thank you very much...)
~
now...
if we wish to discuss methods...
cold steel vs. hot lead?
packaged poison "from the hand of a friend" vs. anonymous poison from an silent zealot?
targeted assassination vs. wholesale indeterminant terrorism?
hangman's noose vs. the hot seat?
burning vs. freezing?
~
well, perhaps another time...
~
~
perhaps...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Edited by gnrm23 (03/20/03 07:24 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 13,114
Loc: South Florida
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1395063 - 03/20/03 11:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Remember Bernard Goetz, getting off a NYC subway and approached by 4 [Black] guys, one with a knife, I think? He pulled a gun and killed a couple of them. It seems that merely brandishing the weapon, or pointing it, might have been sufficient. If not, a leg or butt wound should've sent them fleeing. I don't believe Goetz received time for this. It would've had to be the result of proving that he was in fear for his life. He has a karmic debt to pay, but approaching someone with felonious intent, assault with a deadly weapon, or even partly a hate-crime (going after a geeky bespeckled White guy), all has its karmic repercussions as well - even 'instant karma.' I'm trying to understand not sit in judgement here, but I'm not Bruce Lee, and if 7 guys jumped me, there is a real possibility of my being crippled or killed. If I could reach a weapon, I probably would, though I would at least attempt to deliver non-lethal strikes if I wasn't in fear for my life.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1395101 - 03/20/03 11:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I recognize that it is 'Thou Shalt Not Murder,' and the only murderous thoughts I ever had was towards my ex-wife of 10 years when I realized how much of her s**t I had tolerated, and when I saw her laughing maniacally in the car of one of her new boyfriends as she instructed him to tailgate me down the boulevard.

I have considered buying one of those 5-shot Mossberg, legally sawed-off, pistolgrip shotguns for the side of my bed. If I heard an intruder in my bedroom at night [God forbid!], felt to see if my Lady was still in bed next to me, I would not hesitate to reach for the weapon [*clack-clack!*], and empty those 00 shells in the direction of the intruder. I might have to replaster the walls and pull up the carpet, but if some psycho is gonna creepy-crawl into my bedroom in the middle of the night, I will assuredly be fearful for our lives! One compromise was to install a Brinks alarm system with window and door switches, and glass-break sensors. Loud internal alarm and instant phone call to Brinks (wires are buried), who, in turn will phone Metro cops without the proper response from me. I never want to 'kill' anybody, will not 'murder' anybody, but I would rather kill than have my Lady or myself killed by an intruder. My human judgement is that we are more deserving of Life than that human demon.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: dawn of a new day]
    #1395414 - 03/20/03 02:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"Murder" is a dirtier word than "killing" is. I don't do it because I don't want to destroy something beautiful.


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Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information


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Offlinesoylent_green
The greatEnitsuj
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: xganon]
    #1395619 - 03/20/03 03:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i tink it's up to you to decided what you believe


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: soylent_green]
    #1395948 - 03/20/03 06:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Kill:

To put to death.
To deprive of life: The Black Death was a disease that killed millions.
To put an end to; extinguish: The rain killed our plans for a picnic.
To destroy a vitally essential quality in: Too much garlic killed the taste of the meat.
To cause to cease operating; turn off: killed the motor.
To tire out completely; exhaust: ?The trip to work, and the boredom and nervousness of jobs, kills men? (Jimmy Breslin).
To pass (time) in aimless activity: killed a few hours before the flight by sightseeing.
To consume entirely; finish off: kill a bottle of brandy.
Sports. To prevent a hockey team on a power play from scoring during (a penalty).
To cause extreme pain or discomfort to: My shoes are killing me.
To mark for deletion; rule out: killed the story.
To thwart passage of; veto: kill a congressional bill.
Informal: To overwhelm with hilarity, pleasure, or admiration: The outstanding finale killed the audience.
Sports:
To hit (a ball) with great force.
To hit (a ball) with such force as to make a return impossible, especially in a racquet game.

Murder:
To kill (another human) unlawfully.
To kill brutally or inhumanly.
To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.
Slang. To defeat decisively; trounce.

that's from dictionary.com

So it would seem to me that our troops, attacking Iraq without UN permission, are committing murder!


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisibleenacid
solid funk
Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 183
Re: difference between killing and murder? [Re: xganon]
    #1398553 - 03/21/03 02:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

"Murder" is a dirtier word than "killing" is. I don't do it because I don't want to destroy something beautiful.




you dont want to? how could you not

destroying something beatiful has a notion of beauty all in its own. it is its own form of beauty, that is not experienced by most people in life

im being serious


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