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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90232 - 10/18/99 05:39 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Colchicine works by doubling the chromosomes in plants and animals (scary scary shit). I personally couldn't work out in my mind when the best time to use it would be, at the spore stage, or at the mycelium stage. It would theoretically be possible the treat the spores which would germinate into double chromosome hyphae. If two of these hyphae mated, you would get mycelium with double sets of chromosomes. But, treat the double mycelium and could you actually cause any new growth to have still more chromosomes? A mushroom with four pairs of chromosomes instead of the usual one pair would be unique indeed.
BTW colchicine has been covered in this and the cultivation forums in the past. Use the search function if you want more info on it.

------------------
"...From a certain point of view..."
-Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Anonymous

Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90235 - 10/18/99 02:59 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like someone read this off of the ADM. I am extremely upset!!! Not at you, at me. I never should have brought up this subject. It is extremely easy to make, making it DEADLY to children and the inexperienced who think they can make a super 'shroom. I cannot overemphasise how DANGEROUS this chemical is! I have stacks of notes on using this on plants and fungi, yes it does make super shrooms, but in order to do so, you would have to be an experienced chemist with years of experience in a lab. Case in point:making lsd from ergot. If you don't understand the procedure, you will die a slow, horrible death. Cholchicine was used with marijuana to make diploids, and some inexperienced growers killed a lot of people, and injured more! Please, do not mess with this stuff! Their are many growth hormones to boost yields to use, but there are warnings with them as well, especially bovine pituary extract. You can mess with someones body not knowing what will happen with residual effects. You will be unknowingly be POISONING people. I would be devastated if even 1 injury occurred because of my slip of the tongue! It would be best if this topic was deleted, 0.10 percent?!? I almost had a heart attack! DO NOT EXPERIMENT WITH CHOLCHICINE! DEADLY POISONOUS!!!


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Anonymous

Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90236 - 10/18/99 06:55 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I guessed this to be the case. I had this idea for a few years now but haven't said anything about it until now. But I understand how DANGEROUS this substance is and that is why I emphasized that nobody should do it. I just wanted to know if it had been done before and any details that may be available on it. I wasn't sure about the amount of colchicine that should be used, and I realize I should have mentioned that. I have also read somewhere that colchicine can be obtained from a plant source. Oh, by the way, what is ADM? Well, this was just a theory to me before now. I wasn't sure of the action by which colchicine worked and I am surprised that I was somewhat on track with it. But, then again, that is why I posted it.

Thanks, PsiliPharm



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OfflineBooger
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90238 - 10/19/99 04:55 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I have a funny feeling we're all up to our ears in chemicals that would have mutagenic effects on mushrooms. The fumes from isopropyl alcohol, petroleum ether, and ammonia come to mind. Whether this would make a super shroom, wierd looking shroom, or dead shrooms I have no idea.


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Anonymous

Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90239 - 10/20/99 01:42 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, it does make ya think and I'm not exactly sure what other mutagenic chemicals would have an effect on mushrooms in any way. But, if anyone does, I would like to know just for the sake of knowing.

Laters, Youjutsu



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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90240 - 10/20/99 02:48 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Ok. Here goes. I really mean this in the most polite manner neccesary.

"Dr Lindeman FUCK OFF!!!!!

(editors note: mycofile used to be rather hotheaded and certainly dosn't want old shit started back up. He would alter the post, but finds no trouble laughing at himself and the way he conducted himself in the past. All apologies to all that this conduct affected in the past :wink: )

ok, now allow me to applogize for that outburst. I can't take it back, but I owe you an explanation now. 1st let me compliment you on good points. I admire your concern for people's well being. I admire your dedication, assuming you have the years of chemist experience and lab technique that you say is neccessary. It is noble of you to want to protect the "children".

Now for why I took/take offense regardless of your good points.

1) Information is not a bad thing. No posts should ever be deleted. Plans for nuclear bombs lead to spaceships that are now 1/2 way to the nearest star system now, see my point? Methamphetamine recipes educate the public to the idiocy of our current laws regulating(?) it.
2) I've never been to ADM
3) You do not need years of experience as a chemist in a lab. In 9th grade biology, we used crocus bulb juice to cause polyploidism in strawberry plants. Using the same careful techniques from Bio Lab, I made some polyploid herb. It wasn't super, but I didn't have much variety, only 3 plants survived the treatment and all were males. I was in 9th fucking grade! (also shows that "super shrooms" are not a gaurunteed outcome)
4) I am not a kid anymore, and even when I was, I used it successfuly and safely. Not from luck, but dedication to the same rules you probably use in your lab. All kids aren't dumb. All non-kids aren't non-dumb.
5) ANY research on colchicine makes it's toxicity instantly and blatantly obvious. If people misuse information without doing their own research, they are at fault not you or me. Almost all info on colchicine says not to use it.

OK, there you go. Information is good, and at worst neutral. I'm a little tired of "professionals" looking down on anyone who does the same thing without pay. Everyone from biologists to actors, the ego trip is bothersome and insulting. Even without a degree or a carreer in something, I can become just as proficient on my own.
Everybody should read about colchicine, and enrich your knowledge. Leave the testing to those who feel comfortable taking the obvious risks.
If someone has said something better than you, don't paraphrase it, give them credit.
DO NOT EXPERIMENT WITH CHOLCHICINE! DEADLY POISONOUS!!! -the Dr. and I agree(if people don't listen to me, it's on their conscience, not mine)
FYIO bulbs of autum crocus are the bio source for colchicine
B+ was supposedly mutated with colchicine by Mr. Genetics. I don't have access to a lab anymore where I could verify this, however.
Most importantly, any biologically altered organisms should not be consumed, or even handled carelessly. Offspring of the mutant are safe with most chemicals.

------------------
"...From a certain point of view..."
-Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi

[This message has been edited by mycofile (edited June 19, 2000).]



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90241 - 10/20/99 03:06 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, aside from that, I would like to ask the good doctor some specifics regarding polyploidism. I understand the basic ideas of not allowing the chromosomes to separate during mitosis. The only experience/case studies I know of used plants. The extra stage of the hyphae state is what is confusing me.
Do treated spores create hyphae with a full pair of chromosomes as I would assume?
If so, do these hyphae join to create polyploid mycelium? Or must it be mycelium that is treated?
Could mycelium from treated spores be treated again? Why or why not.

You see, it seems to me that with fungi you have two times in one generation where you could double the chromosomes(spores and mycelium), as opposed to plants which only have one.

Also, what if a treated hyphae were to team up with a non-treated one? Could it happen? Would it produce mycelium with just one extra chromosome rather than a full extra set.
If all these questions are yes, then it seems to me like you could produce mature fruits that have several combinations of extra pairs of chromosomes, or just extra single chromosomes.
How about helping clear some of these questions up. If you would prefer to carry this on privately, please e-mail me with the link above,
thank-you very much
mycofile

------------------
"...From a certain point of view..."
-Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90242 - 10/20/99 11:28 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Is colchicine considered a mutagen at all? It seems that creating polyploid individuals is a different process than causing mutations in an individual's genome.
Perhaps something like bromouracil would be more practical if one wanted to cause mutations. UV light would probably be a safer method(for the researcher anyway.)
It might be interesting if you could create a mutant that no longer was able to hydroxylate DMT at the 4-position. The mushrooms would then contain DMT instead of psilocin and psilocybin.
Perhaps this should go without saying, but _don't eat the mushrooms until the next generation!_


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90243 - 10/20/99 07:25 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

mycofile-
It sounds like colchicine causes nondisjunction in the chromosomes during meiosis (could be meiosis I or II). If this is the case, then the gametes (spores) would have two nuclei (dikaryotic).

This would be a very interesting experiment. Imagine, your entire cake would be dikaryotic and without the hassles of cloning. However, there could be some problems down the road if the mushrooms generated from the dikaryotic spores were sterile (heaven forbid! Egad!).

I'd do this experiment if I had no value to my own chromosomes. But if a spore company out there were to do this successfully, they could corner the market with their "super-efficient, fast colonizing" spores. I'd buy 'em.

------------------
Talk to a man about himself and he will listen for hours.
-Benjamin Disraeli



--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90244 - 10/20/99 08:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Actually Sclorch, colchicine comes into play in mitosis. I believe during metaphase. If i remember correctly, it interupts the actions of the spindle fibers?(damn its been a long time, those things that form, to separate the newly doubled chromosomes and pull them to opposite ends of the cell). You see, this ends with a cell that started mitosis and doubled its chromosomes, but didn't actually reproduce. Once it does reproduce, mitosis starts at the beginning and each new cell has double chromosomes just like the parent.
See how that could be done several times with fungi? Spores germinate forming hyphae. Hyphae mate, forming mycelium. Could the fungi be treated at both the spore level, and the mycelium level? I don't know. Anybody?

------------------
"...From a certain point of view..."
-Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90245 - 10/21/99 03:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So it causes nondisjunction in mitosis, thus rendering the new cells disomic (two sets of chromosomes)?

------------------
Talk to a man about himself and he will listen for hours.
-Benjamin Disraeli



--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90246 - 10/21/99 03:07 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

And no, is couldn't be treated at the spore level, unless each spore is treated separately. Otherwise you have disomic spores mating and who knows what would happen to the shrooms then (maybe they'd be retarded like Down's Sydrome- i.e. trisomy 21)


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90247 - 10/21/99 04:40 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

why fuck around with mutagens at all? wouldn't it be much more practical and safe to just use strain selection? finding the best characteristics of current strains and isolating them. thats probably all that any cannabis developers due. it would also explain why the PF strain is so uniquely suited to brown rice flour.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90248 - 10/22/99 02:19 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Major,
At this point, I'm just interested in possibilities and theory. But to answer your question, if you just consider it "genetic improvement" instead of "mutation", it is worth it. Without this type of process, many fruit and vegetable farmers would be nowhere near as productive. Polyploid strains are very common in strawberries for example. They grow much much larger and quicker than their non "improved" brethren. Many great weed strains have also been produced by this, I've seen several that yielded colas much larger than their parents.
Sclorch, you got it. I have done a lttle more reading on this, and it seems highly unlikely that hyphae with doubled chromos could join with normal spores. It would take two treated hyphae to join. So it seems that the spore/hyphae stage is a good time for treatment. Now, how about the mycelium stage?
BTW the research I did, was chasin links from Dr. Rush Wayne's (h202 guy) link page.
Yeah, you would probably end up with some down syndromers, and autistic shrooms would be kinda scary, but did you ever see pictures of those russian lady atheletes that had an extra Y chromosome? Man, they were fierce! That's what I want! A strain that grows and fruits and competes like a russian bear-lady olympiad!

------------------
"...From a certain point of view..."
-Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90249 - 10/22/99 10:25 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

You're right: we're not really talking about a "mutation" at all.
Polyploid individuals of "lower" organisms seem more likely to survive and benifit from the condition than we would. A human with 92 chromosomes could not possibly survive, but it would probably be a different story for a mushroom mycelium. More complex organisms have more things that can go wrong with them.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90250 - 10/23/99 07:18 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Would somebody with some balls please try this?
(note: I've recently been castrated so I don't qualify, ouch.)

------------------
Talk to a man about himself and he will listen for hours.
-Benjamin Disraeli



--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90251 - 10/23/99 10:54 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Well, my balls must be about as big as my monitor, cuz I might. With one little bonus thrown in for good measure. Forget about cubensis, I'm fucking around with the Pan trop! HEE HEE HEE HEE!!!! I don't think I'll post much information about my experiments untill I have conclusive results, It will be too much hassel as I will be doing many many experiments! :smile:
BTW I think Mr G used colchicine to fuck around with some strains, but alas, he's never around because some fuckers were dicks to him because he couldn't spell.

------------------
I can't go on talking like this. I just had a mental picture of Angel....
Now I'm speechless.



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineoDin
Registered: 08/13/99
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90252 - 10/28/99 02:54 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

colchicine is specifically indicated for the treatment and relief of pain in attacks in acute gouty arthritis. It is recommended for regular use between attacks as a prophylatic measure.....

warnings: arrests cell division in animals and plants. It has adversely affected spermatogenesis in humans and some animal species under certain conditions.

pregnancy catergory C has been shown to be teratogenic in mice. adequate studies have not been performed in humans. Use only if potential benefit justifies the potential risk to fetus

adverse reactions: various bone marrow depression and anemias(I can send specifics if anybody wants them.)

clochicine should be administered with caution to aged or debilitated patients.

just thought this might give some info to those who might want it. This drug is used alot with gout patients. later



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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90253 - 10/29/99 03:09 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sure, I'd like more specifics. Where are you getting them from?

------------------
I can't go on talking like this. I just had a mental picture of Angel....
Now I'm speechless.



--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineoDin
Registered: 08/13/99
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Re: Genetically Mutated Mushrooms
    #90254 - 10/29/99 07:39 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

well I am a pharmacist so I walk over and pick up a bottle of colchicine and read the package insert. Here is the adverse reactions: Bone marrow depression with aplastic anemia, agranulocytosis or thrombocytopenia(long term therapy), peripheral neuritis, purpura, myopathy, loss of hair, reversable azoospermia, dermatosis, hypersensitivity, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, nausea.

lab test abnormalities: elevated alkaline phosphatase and AST.

More? I am more than willing to offer any assistance I can. I usually don't check messages here in expermentation much so if you dont get an answer fast enough PM me. later



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