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OfflineGawain
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Registered: 09/10/02
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Mycelium & Genetic Exchange
    #873793 - 09/10/02 06:45 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

This is a question generated by observation in nature.

I was observing Mycelium and mushrooms in nature this weekend while outside in the woods. I noticed that there were several types of mushrooms all within a very close proximity, less than a square meter, all close enough that when the duff (leaf litter) was removed from around them, their apparent Mycelium could not be distinguished as separate. This corresponds to some of what I know concerning the biotic networks of microbial, fungal and bacterial colonies that connect the roots of trees and under-story plants into one cohesive entity, that theoretically all of these disparate pieces are in some sort of competitive-symbiotic contact with one another. Well, with the mushrooms and their Mycelium, I wondered if it was possible for genetic information from two different beds of Mycelium to exchange with direct proximal contact. I know that 'contamination' by outside spores when using the online Teks can still result in a yield of mushrooms, what I want to know is if this contaminated yield is really an amalgam of the total spectrum of Mycelium present in the bed or cake (depending on the case)? Does the overall genetic structure of a mushroom change or "blend" when two beds of Mycelium of different strains or species mingle? Is the contamination of a mushroom cake merely the absorption of the actual contaminated material into the network (like a sponge)? Or if the contaminated flush were allowed to spawn and reproduce, would the next flush have the same characteristics as the contaminated parent even if the original contaminant were no longer present?

The latter actually occurs in Bacteria quite often, the spontaneous exchange of genetic material prompted by nothing more than proximity. The reason for the drawn comparison is due to the fact that neither Mushrooms nor Bacteria seem to mate...so how is it that they evolve beyond the bleak aspect of random mutation? My thought was that when two genetically similar mycelium patches intermingle, they would (like Bacteria) exchange a certain amount of genetic material and possible produce a hybrid mushroom with completely different characteristics.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Gawain


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: Gawain]
    #873965 - 09/10/02 08:05 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Mushrooms do kind of mate; each spore is a haploid and in order for a true mycelia to form as the spore "sprouts" it sends  out a tendril called a hyphae when two hyphae connect a genetic exchange occurs and the mycelium grows from this.In nature some selective mechanism must prevent dissimilar species from hybridizing (ie;hyphae of different species cannot join and form mycelia under normal conditions) however among the most experienced pickers the word is to leave edibles that are growing with poisonous species (ie;in our area it is possible to find champignon agaricus fruiting side by side with A.phalloides.General wisdom says to avoid these fruits which intermingle.) Bon Chance WR :wink: 


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InvisibleSixTango
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Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: whiterasta]
    #874058 - 09/10/02 08:43 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, you know your stuff. Right on............. :grin:

6T :tongue: 


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OfflineShaw
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: whiterasta]
    #874120 - 09/10/02 09:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I don't believe the myceloa of those species.would have any genetic exchange. even if they did connect, it shouldn't make an edible toxic. It would have to be the origonal mating, which i don't think would occur The only way edibles are said to become toxic is if there is a competing organism that produces toxins in the mycelea substrate. Toxic contaminants won't change the genetic traits unless they were the type to cause genetic mutation.


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Edited by Shaw (09/10/02 09:19 AM)


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OfflineShaw
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: whiterasta]
    #874156 - 09/10/02 09:27 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

are you the same whiterasta from the other board?


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: Shaw]
    #875407 - 09/10/02 07:00 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I am on several cannaboards and some other forums also.I only post as WR(and for a short time while my password was not working as rev myc) :wink:  but there may be another out there although I don't know.And I agree about the genetic exchange between species but O/T pickers say that decomposing poisonous species can sometimes contaminate the soil surrounding with their rotting carcasses.This I think is where the caution in picking edibles in proximity comes in,in general I personaly think it best err in the side of caution if picking next to Amanitas and Galerinas as the consequences of any poisoning by these are catastrophic.I cite as example Pleurotis grown on eucalyptus as evidence of mycelia taking up and making poisonous substances from the substrate.Agaricus fruiting among the carcasses of A.phalloides (or on ground which they've decomposed recently) are an example of a fruiting I personaly would bypass.
This raises an interesting question of whether hyphae of diferent species could be induced to intersect and form a mycelia under artificial means,and if so would this construct fruit?(Agaricus X Psilocybe?). I perhaps would begin by germinating spores in mutual proximity using a non toxic surfactant to weaken the cell membrane of the hyphae? There may be substances in use in cytology suited to this already.At any rate it is a question beyond my means of skill,I am rambling so will save band width and wish you well.WR  :wink: 


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Offlinecomario2
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: whiterasta]
    #876226 - 09/11/02 03:22 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i can't help you on this one, but i'm very interested in the possibilities. keep this search going!


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comario


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: comario2]
    #876358 - 09/11/02 04:30 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Non-self unions. Genetic exchange occuring between two seperate strains of fungus. Meaning not hyphae, but mycelium. Clamp connections form and material changes place. I'll update later...


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OfflineShaw
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: mycofile]
    #876430 - 09/11/02 05:08 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I had read the eucalyptus thing as well. TMC right? I had been wondering about clamp connections as well. He shows the picture of two different species connecting, but dosn't mention the result. I can see how strains that have evolved geographically apart, when brought together by man, would then still be closely related enough to mix, causing a "mixed" mushroom. Just like different races of paople and dogs do.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: Shaw]
    #876653 - 09/11/02 06:52 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I would have to assume some similarity of tissue to prevent some autoimmune rejection of foreign tissue.Hybrids within genus are ubiquitous but hybridization outside of genus is possible it seems only at very primitive levels(bacteria,etc).I'd like to here more about these inter -genus mycelial clamp connections,any links?
This poses some VERY interesting questions about mycorhyzoidal fungi and the sharing of genetic info between plant and fungi.In mycorhyzoidal species the mycelia is intertwinned on a cellular level with the root hair of the plant...........AGHH we are all just geneticaly engineered by fungus.......Yes Candida i will drink beer,i will drink beer,i will drink beer.I wonder what a symbiotic relationship with Psilocybe mycelia would be like LOL :wink:    WR


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Invisiblepsyphon
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Registered: 11/27/01
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: Gawain]
    #884172 - 09/15/02 09:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

At this year's Telluride Mushroom Festival/Conference, Lynn Margulis presented a new part of the theory of evolution.  Basically she said that it was symbiosis and not random mutations that caused the generation of new species.  One example of this is the symbiotic relationship between certain types of fungus and termites.  Also, she pointed out that drosophila (fruit flies) are the most studied for genetic experiments and have been purposly mutated many times, never producing a new species or a fly that could survive in the wild.  I have not read it yet but her (and her co-author's) book seems very interesting and related to this topic.

From sciencewriters.org: Acquiring Genomes: A Theory of the Origins of Species, by Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, Basic Books, 2002. Evolutionary novelties spring from long-term symbioses, larval transfer, and karyotypic fission (kinetochore reproduction). Darwin would have agreed: Accumulations of random mutations alone are not enough.

  :smile: 


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"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

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OfflineShaw
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: whiterasta]
    #898700 - 09/22/02 02:15 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i just fruited a trey culture spawned with half pf classic and half pf hawiian. The flush of hawiian came first, and now i have the pf coming. the hawiian seems to have done a bit better than the pf. Both strains are easily differentiated. There dosn't seem to be any mix of genes.


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: Shaw]
    #985699 - 10/23/02 05:37 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

.


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Anonymous

Re: Mycelium & Genetic Exchange [Re: Gawain]
    #987893 - 10/23/02 11:42 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i posted a similar question recently... Anno directed me to

http://www.fungifun.org/sex.pdf ....


u might might find it interesting... it?s in adobe acrobat file format... i hope this helps u





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