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Offlinelemunhed
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Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange
    #1742937 - 07/23/03 11:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It has been well established, since long before I ever knew about home cultivation of mushrooms, that air exchange is a crucial and extremely important variable in fruiting Psilocybe mushrooms. I have seen numerous "invitro" grow TEK's out there, most notably Hippie's TEK. In some of these TEK's it says that you can only expect a "slightly lower" yield than if you were fruiting in a standard terrarium. This leads me to wonder -what about air exchange? Shouldn't the size of your mushrooms when growing invitro be dramatically stunted or non existant because of the non existent air exchange and thus high c02 levels?
Further more... the implications of this question could be far reaching. If certain mushrooms (such as PF's Classic (amazonian/matias)) will fruit well invitro, couldn't they be fruited in a terrarium with 0 air exchange? Gimme some help on these questions while I design some experiments.


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You're pompeius, aren't you? I'll make a pompeian of you unless you hold your toungue!

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InvisibleTxTec
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Registered: 12/19/02
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: lemunhed]
    #1742955 - 07/23/03 11:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

All of my invitros have had a decent air exchange?...If they dont they die..All i have ever done with Hippies Tek is do what he said to do..Who told you to evacuate all the air?..Invitro means ya give it the breath to go invitro so all ya gotta do is cover it up so contams dont fuck everything up...Its not that hard my friend.


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Edited by TxTec (07/25/03 10:07 AM)


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Offlinelemunhed
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: TxTec]
    #1743858 - 07/24/03 09:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I know it's not that hard, and i never mentioned anyhting about "evacuating" any of the air. If you notice.... in a terrarium you are getting anywhere from a few air exchanges per hour, to a few a day either by automated setup or manual fanning. When growing a mushroom invitro, you don't open it up to the air, thus you are giving it NO air exchange. It's not that there isn't air in the container, it's that you aren't giving it fresh air.


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InvisibleTxTec
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: lemunhed]
    #1747431 - 07/25/03 10:11 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

That makes sense...never really thought about the absence of air exchange when growing invitro...they shure do look cool when you have a few growing that way...Ask Anno


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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: TxTec]
    #1747553 - 07/25/03 11:13 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Good question. I've only grown stuff invitro by accident, but it always worked fine for me. No clue how much O2 actually gets in through the holes on the top, sine CO2 is heavier, but usually some CO2 buildup is said to be benificial since mushrooms can fix CO2 as well as O2. Remember -- jars can stall because of this during colonization, so it *can be* a problem, no doubt, but isn't always the case.

Just a few ideas.

--
Micro


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Offlinelemunhed
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: micro]
    #1755364 - 07/28/03 09:18 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I have to try some "accidental" invitro fruiting lol.


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You're pompeius, aren't you? I'll make a pompeian of you unless you hold your toungue!

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Offlinemajik_monkey
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: lemunhed]
    #1763936 - 07/30/03 09:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

1 air exchange per hour is the minnimum recommended for fruiting cubensis...but, if you consider the fact that cubes are a VERY agressive species of mushrooms that can withstand non-optimal conditions...that explains why you can still fruit with low air exchange levels, which you assume invitro to have...I dont think its as low as you might believe. i think i remember people mentioning that lack of air exchange was found to be correlated with aborts and thus with lower yields...I dont think there is specific research, just anecdotal info...but i know for larger volume grow areas, Stamets says air exchange and entrainment is crucial because of the large localized amount of Co2 produced and also to reduce the temp of the substrate...you dont want excessive or forceful air exchange because it wicks away moisture from the surface. you might try fruiting one of your jars in a terrarium and doing a yield comparison...please post on the forum if you do. -MM


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Offlinelemunhed
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: majik_monkey]
    #1801170 - 08/11/03 11:51 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Hehe. Invitro doesn't yield as well. I had two invitro jars which both pretty much stalled... then i opened them up and the mushies started growing again. I don't have my digi yet and it isn't harvest time so I can't give you a more quantitative analysis of the yield potential of invitro fruits. There really isn't a need to do invitro unless you are in college or living with your parents or something like that where you would have the need to grow stealth.


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You're pompeius, aren't you? I'll make a pompeian of you unless you hold your toungue!

-Tiberius Claudius Nero


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Offlinemilddub
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: lemunhed]
    #1802683 - 08/11/03 07:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Do you think air exchange in a terranium is important to mycobags?

-Wayne


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: milddub]
    #1803057 - 08/11/03 09:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

1. My understanding on yield is that it is an incredibly high yielding method, depending on your measure of yield. Back when hippie first formalized the technique, he said he got something like 4 dry ounces out of 24 jars. That's an impressive yield. From the standpoint of yield per cake, biological efficiency, work level, capital investment, cost per dose etc, it's near the best yield you can get. It did take many flushes and several months to get though, so in yield per unit of time it's not that great.

2. Cubensis is an extremely co2 tolerant species.

3. The need for air exchanges is directly related to the mass of the substrate, a single pf cake has an incredibly minimal mass, thus requiring very little air exchange.

4. Invitro teks aren't completely devoid of air exchange. There are holes in the lids, and some gasses must be exchanged although at an incredibly slow rate, which is evidently ok due to 2 and 3 above.

5. An important aspect of air exchange (and air circulation or turbidity) is to prevent stagnant, contaminate prone air. Invitro is naturally protected from contamination concerns, therefore you are less likely to see the green show up in an invitro jar than in a cake in a terrerium with few to no air exchanges.

You can fruit cakes in a terrerium with no to little air exchanges. In this scenario, I don't think I would, but you can. When I was a caker I would leave my terreriums sealed for 5 days at a time and still get fruits. I don't recomend it, because I had lots of problems back in the sloppy days, but it can be done.

While I may be far more experienced with large beds of bulk substrates, that's only my preference. I can see lots of reasons why people would grow invitro, even if they don't live with parents or in dorms. (for one, you shouldn't even grow at all in those places!). In fact, if I were to ever grow again, which is incredibly unlikely, I don't think I would consider anything other than hips invitro.

So far as air exchange in a terrerium of mycobags, I don't think it's anywhere near as important as it would be with cakes or casings. I would think that the more the merrier, but you probably wouldn't have a problem with fanning it only occasionally, every few days even.


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"From a certain point of view"
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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: mycofile]
    #1803193 - 08/11/03 09:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

one more factor to consider.
heat drives the invitro air exchange.
mycellia generates heat, which the glass jar traps.
heating the air inside around the cake,
forcing it to expand and thus lowering the pressure.
this expansion forces the hotter stale air out,
while the lowered pressure sucks fresh cool air in.
and mycofile is correct on yields over time.
invitro fruits take longer to grow and mature,
but total eventual yields are potentially quite high.


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Offlinelemunhed
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: Hippie3]
    #1804911 - 08/12/03 10:20 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah. I was thinking about that aspect of air exchange recently hippie ... if you look at something like the chronic tek and think about not only the heat exchange, but the fact that C02 is a little heavier than oxygen...it would stand to reason that the C02 would drop out through the vent holes in an invitro jar (if you have vent holes) and be replaced by relatively fresh air. Sorry that was a huge run on sentence heh.


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You're pompeius, aren't you? I'll make a pompeian of you unless you hold your toungue!

-Tiberius Claudius Nero


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Offlinemudkip
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: lemunhed]
    #9506323 - 12/28/08 10:38 AM (7 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

lemunhed said:
Yeah. I was thinking about that aspect of air exchange recently hippie ... if you look at something like the chronic tek and think about not only the heat exchange, but the fact that C02 is a little heavier than oxygen...it would stand to reason that the C02 would drop out through the vent holes in an invitro jar (if you have vent holes) and be replaced by relatively fresh air. Sorry that was a huge run on sentence heh. 





Aww i was gonna say that :frown:  Well put though.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Invitro And the Importance of Air Exchange [Re: lemunhed]
    #9506621 - 12/28/08 12:33 PM (7 years, 11 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Don't bump five year old threads to agree with a long-gone poster.  This thread should never have been in advanced anyway.


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Mycobags, Paul Stamets

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