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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90478 - 12/23/99 02:56 PM (24 years, 7 months ago)

Here's what Bob Wallace from www.promind.com had to say about detecting and isolating these compounds using chromatography, I suggested TLC (Thin-Layer Chromatography):

You might be able to get a hit or two with TLC, but for any kind of
volume you'd probably need to go to column chromatography.

The huge problem here is getting the reference compound. Sure,
maybe there are some nice spots, but without a reference you don't
know which is which. Probably you'd need to do the TLC, do a
GC/MS on a small piece of each spot to identify the structure,
and save the rest of the spot as a reference. Or, to do a LAB test
(large animal bioassay :wink: to see if column work will be worthwhile.
The you do the column separation, saving a series of collections,
then test each collection sample with TLC and your reference.


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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90479 - 12/26/99 07:30 PM (24 years, 6 months ago)

I would like to make a correction at this time...In one of the previous posts, the last post on the first page, I quoted a quote from a post that D'Gatz made on another thread. Well a simple mistake was made, not by me, but he said that 25 millimoles of tryptamine was used, but it was actually 0.25 millimoles of tryptamine. Which means instead of 4g of tryptamine, only 40mg of tryptamine was used to produce up to 3.3% Psilocin, since tryptamine weighs 160.22g/mol. Well, if 22% of the tryptamine was converted into Psilocin, then that means 8.8mg of Psilocin was converted. So, if that 8.8mg is the 3.3% Psilocin, then there was approx. 267mg of shrooms was grown. Also, if approx. 267mg of shrooms was grown and 0.8% Psilocybin was produced, then approx. 2.1mg of Psilocybin was produced. Of course, the levels of Psilocin/Psilocybin was probably not this high at the same time. While 3.3% Psilocin was detected, Psilocybin was probably undetectable and while 0.8% Psilocybin was produced, less than 3.3% Psilocin was produced. The highest level of Psilocybin will probably come in the second flush, whereas the highest level of Psilocin will come in the fourth flush. Psilocin levels remains somewhat consistant from flush to flush, whereas Psilocybin levels change rapidly from flush to flush.

Ok, now that I've applied the math to Tryptamine input to Psiloc(yb)in output. Let's apply it to Alpha-Methyl-Tryptamine (AMT) input to Alpha-Methyl-Psiloc(yb)in output. Since AMT weighs 175.25g/mol, 0.25 millimoles would be about 44mg. If 22% was converted into Alpha-Methyl-Psilocin, then that would be about 10mg. Suppose we wanted about 20mg, then we would use twice as much, 88mg AMT, which is available from MBE Tech. This may also be done with DPT and DIPT, which are available from JLF

One more thing I would like to mention. In the cultures that DET was introduced to produce 4-HO-DET and it's phosphate ester, the caps of the shrooms were smaller than the ones that weren't introduced DET, but the spores of them produced same regular size mushrooms. So, DET inhibited the growth of the shrooms some. Also, the usual color change to blue when brused was also changed to a greenish-blue, if I remember right.


[This message has been edited by PsiliPharm (edited December 28, 1999).]

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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90481 - 12/29/99 10:50 PM (24 years, 6 months ago)

This makes we wonder about the possibilty of using legal mushrooms to smuggle in the fun substances by growing them in the substrate. Perhaps adding dmt to the substrate of some standard edible mushroom and being able to extract/take them. Although dmt might not be possible i just decided to use it as a random example. I understand that this would probably be a very ineffecient way to smuggle because of the fact the mushrooms would probably break down some of the substance but and not extract all of it from the cake but who knows.


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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90480 - 12/30/99 02:49 AM (24 years, 6 months ago)

Recently, I was doing some studying on chemicals and hormones that may effect plant and mushroom growth and I came across Brassinosteroids. Here is the two references that made me wonder about their use in mushroom growth:

Brassinosteroids. G. Adam, V. Marquardt. Phytochem. 25: 1787 (1986)
Growth-promoting effect of a brassinosteroid in mycelial cultures of the fungus Psilocybe cubensis. J. Gartz, G. Adam, H.-M. Vorbrodt. Naturw. 77: 388 (1990)

I haven't had a chance to check these sources out yet, but the second suggests that this might work. Here are some more sources:

TITLE: Brassinosteroids.
AUTHORS: Adam G; Schmidt J; Schneider B
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Institute of Plant Biochemistry, Halle/S., Germany.
SOURCE: Fortschr Chem Org Naturst 1999;78:1-46
CITATION IDS: PMID: 10592760 UI: 20060345

TITLE: Biological effects of brassinosteroids.
SOURCE: Crit Rev Biochem Mol Biol 1999;34(5):339-58
CITATION IDS: PMID: 10565679 UI: 20029409

TITLE: Molecular physiology of brassinosteroids revealed by the analysis of mutants.
AUTHORS: Altmann T
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Max-Planck-Institut fur molekulare Pflanzenphysiologie, Golm, Germany. altmann@mpimp-golm.mpg.de
SOURCE: Planta 1999 Mar;208(1):1-11
CITATION IDS: PMID: 10212999 UI: 99229469

TITLE: Recent advances in brassinosteroid molecular genetics.
AUTHORS: Altmann T
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Max-Planck-Institut fur molekulare Pflanzenphysiologie, Karl-Liebknecht- Strasse 25, 14476 Golm, Germany. altmann@mpimp-golm.mpg.de
SOURCE: Curr Opin Plant Biol 1998 Oct;1(5):378-83
CITATION IDS: PMID: 10066617 UI: 99167776
ABSTRACT: The importance of brassinosteroids (BRs, a specific class of ecdysone- like plant steroids) as essential endogenous regulators of growth and development is demonstrated through a growing number of well characterised Arabidopsis, pea, and tomato mutants deficient in BR biosynthesis or BR response. Thus, a rapid advancement in understanding the molecular genetics of BR biosynthesis and mode of action can be witnessed, which will be further enhanced through the availability of a set of extremely valuable molecular tools for the analysis of the biological function of BRs.

TITLE: A tale of dwarfs and drugs: brassinosteroids to the rescue.
AUTHORS: Altmann T
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Max-Planck-Institut fur molekulare Pflanzenphysiologie, Golm, Germany. altmann@mpimp-golm.mpg.de
SOURCE: Trends Genet 1998 Dec;14(12):490-5
CITATION IDS: PMID: 9865154 UI: 99082673
ABSTRACT: Brassinosteroids (BRs), a specific class of low abundance plant steroids, are capable of eliciting strong growth responses and a variety of physiological changes through exogenous application to plants. Recently, BRs gained general acceptance as important regulators (hormones) of plant growth and development through genetic and molecular identification and characterization of genes involved in BR biosynthesis or response in Arabidopsis, pea and tomato. This major advance in the molecular genetics of BR biosynthesis and mode of action disclosed another case of amazing functional conservation of signalling molecules utilized in plants and animals, and provided a set of extremely valuable tools for the functional analysis of BRs.

TITLE: Synthesis and molecular modeling: related approaches to progress in brassinosteroid research.
AUTHORS: Brosa C; Zamora I; Terricabras E; Soca L; Peracaula R; Rodriguez-Santamarta C
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Institut Quimic de Sarria, CETS, Universitat Ramon Llull, Barcelona, Spain. brosa@iqs.url.es
SOURCE: Lipids 1997 Dec;32(12):1341-7
CITATION IDS: PMID: 9438246 UI: 98101143
ABSTRACT: In the field of brassinosteroids, which are potent plant growth regulators, we have developed a quantitative structure-activity relationship study to develop knowledge from a structural point of view and to find out new requirement definitions. This will help identify other suitable active brassinosteroid derivatives with a good activity/synthetic cost ratio for further application in agriculture. The methodology used to achieve this goal represents a multidisciplinary study involving synthesis, molecular modeling calculations, and bioactivity evaluation. The influence of different molecular properties in the bioactivity of a set of synthetic compounds (i.e., molecular electrostatic potential and the ability to form H bonds) is discussed. The molecular electrostatic potential is expressed in terms of the electrostatic Carbo similarity index (CI) between brassinolide (1) and other brassinosteroids. We have found that the electrostatic charges of the functional groups play an important role in the description of the activity, as evidenced by its good correlation with the CI in most cases. Deviation from this rule could be explained by the H bonding abilities of some of these compounds, which we believe may play an essential role in binding to the natural receptors.

TITLE: Recent developments in the field of plant steroid hormones.
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla 92093-0506, USA. tmcmorris@ucsd.edu
SOURCE: Lipids 1997 Dec;32(12):1303-8
CITATION IDS: PMID: 9438241 UI: 98101138
ABSTRACT: Brassinolide and related brassinosteroids are a novel group of steroids which appear to be ubiquitous in plants. There is compelling evidence, particularly from recent genetic studies, that these steroids are essential for normal plant growth and development. Synthesis of brassinosteroids and aspects of their biochemistry are reviewed.

TITLE: Studies on biosynthesis of brassinosteroids.
AUTHORS: Sakurai A; Fujioka S
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Institute of Physical and Chemical Research (RIKEN), Saitama 351-01, Japan.
SOURCE: Biosci Biotechnol Biochem 1997 May;61(5):757-62
CITATION IDS: PMID: 9178548 UI: 97321846
ABSTRACT: Biosynthesis of steroidal plant hormones, brassinosteroids, was studied using the cell culture system of Catharanthus roseus. Feeding labeled compounds of possible intermediates to the cultured cells, followed by analyzing the metabolites by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry disclosed the pathways from a plant sterol, campesterol, to brassinolide. There are two pathways, named the early C6-oxidation pathway and late C6-oxidation pathway, both of which would be operating in a wide variety of plants. Recent findings of brassinosteroid- deficient mutants of Arabidopsis and the garden pea by several groups, and the possible blocked steps of the mutants in the biosynthetic pathways are also introduced.

TITLE: Brassinosteroids.
AUTHORS: Fujioka S; Sakurai A
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Institute of Physical and Chemical Research (RIKEN), Saitama, Japan.
SOURCE: Nat Prod Rep 1997 Feb;14(1):1-10
CITATION IDS: PMID: 9121728 UI: 97235569

TITLE: Molecular genetic studies confirm the role of brassinosteroids in plant growth and development.
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Horticultural Science, North Carolina State University, Raleigh 27695-7609, USA. steve_clouse@ncsu.edu
SOURCE: Plant J 1996 Jul;10(1):1-8
CITATION IDS: PMID: 8758975 UI: 96314857

TITLE: Plant hormones: brassinosteroids in the spotlight.
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Horticultural Science, North Carolina State University, Raleigh 27695-7609, USA.
SOURCE: Curr Biol 1996 Jun 1;6(6):658-61
CITATION IDS: PMID: 8793287 UI: 96385429
ABSTRACT: Recent studies on dwarf mutants of the model plant Arabidopsis thallana have provided convincing evidence that brassinosteroids-natural plant products similar to animal steroid hormones-are essential for normal plant growth and development.

TITLE: Synthesis of new brassinosteroids with potential activity as antiecdysteroids.
AUTHORS: Brosa C; Nusimovich S; Peracaula R
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Organic Chemistry, C.E.T.S. Institut Quimic de Sarria, Universitat Ramon Llull, Barcelona, Spain.
SOURCE: Steroids 1994 Aug;59(8):463-7
CITATION IDS: PMID: 7985206 UI: 95076485
ABSTRACT: The synthesis of four new brassinosteroids with 2 beta,3 beta-diol functionality and A/B cis and A/B trans ring junction is reported. These brassinosteroids could present activity as antiecdysteroids.

TITLE: Synthesis of brassinosteroids and relationship of structure to plant growth-promoting effects.
AUTHORS: Thompson MJ; Meudt WJ; Mandava NB; Dutky SR; Lusby WR; Spaulding DW
SOURCE: Steroids 1982 Jan;39(1):89-105
CITATION IDS: PMID: 7080117 UI: 82200325
ABSTRACT: A number of brassinosteroids with and without hydroxyl groups or an alkyl substituent in their side chain were synthesized. The alkyl substituent at C-24 highly influenced the oxidation of the C-22 double bond with osmium tetroxide and, hence the ratio of the 22 beta,23 beta- and 22 alpha,23 alpha-glycolic isomers obtained. Two different bean bioassays used to compare the plant growth-promoting capabilities of these compounds and of brassinolide and its three side chain 22,23-cis- glycolic isomers showed that brassinolide was the most active. The next most active brassinosteroids were generally those with 22 alpha-OH, 23 alpha-OH orientation and a beta-methyl or alpha-ethyl substituent at C- 24. Similarly, of the synthetic precursor tetrahydroxy ketones of the brassinosteroids, those with 22 alpha-OH, 23 alpha-OH orientation (like brassinolide) and an alkyl group at C-24 were also the most active in both bioassays. The results indicate stringent structural features are required for a steroid to induce brassin activity. The structural requirements are: a trans A/B ring system (5alpha-hydrogen), a 6-ketone or a 7-oxa-6-ketone system in ring B, cis alpha-oriented hydroxyl groups at C-2 and C-3, cis hydroxy groups at C-22 and C-23 as well as a methyl or ethyl substituent at C-24.



[This message has been edited by PsiliPharm (edited December 30, 1999).]

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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90482 - 12/30/99 01:06 PM (24 years, 6 months ago)

Here are some more sources for information about Brassinosteroids:

CIDtech Research Inc. - Brassinosteroid Supplier

Brassinosteroid Synthesis Group

Other Hormones - Brassinosteroids

A Start At A Comprehensive Theory Of Plant Hormones

Growth Regulators and Hormones

Brassinosteroids: ABS798-Growth and Development

Brassinosteroids Home Page

Brassinosteroids: A New Class of Plant Hormones


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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90484 - 01/03/00 06:26 PM (24 years, 6 months ago)

Where do you find the time to create these posts? Really, it must take for ever to find those links and then attach them.. never mind the endless text... I am amazed. :smile:

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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90485 - 01/04/00 05:14 PM (24 years, 6 months ago)

You and so many others, and you've hardly see any of the work that I do. I was pissed today though because I couldn't go to the library, I woke up about an hour before it closes. I probably won't be adding much information until they go back to normal hours.


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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90486 - 01/29/00 04:52 PM (24 years, 5 months ago)

Ever since I first made this post, I've received many questions from people who didn't understand it and were left confused because they didn't know much chemistry. Well, there isn't much chemistry involved and it's not hard to understand. What most people have trouble understanding is the long compound names in relation to it's structure. If you know what the difference between tryptamine and alpha-methyl-tryptamine (AMT), you'll know the difference between psilocin and alpha-methyl-psilocin (4-HO-AMDMT), and that's basically all it comes down to. If you don't know what the structure looks like, and the properties of these structures then you won't understand the potential usefulness of this process. I'll be the first to admit that if it wasn't for being able to understand the relationship of these names in relation to their structures, I would not know anything about this and this post would not have existed. This is how I began to understand everything, it's all about the structures. If you know the names, and can visualize the structures, you'll be fine. Trust me, it's not hard. I had to refer back several times myself. Here's some of the best sources for structure pictures and also the properties of the substances:

The Lycaeum Graphics Archive - Structures

TiHKAL - Tryptamines i Have Known and Loved Part II

PiHKAL - Phenethylamines i Have Known and Loved Part II


The above links are very useful in understanding the substances described throughout this thread. I included the ChemFinder link because you can search it and find most of the other non-drug compounds that were talked about even though their structures are not that important, but it also gives links for more info about each substance and it's care and such.

I hope that this helps you people out a little...I plan on creating a web page describing the process a little better with graphical representations to make understanding a little easier.


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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90487 - 01/30/00 05:13 AM (24 years, 5 months ago)


Wow... What more can I say... I'm impressed.

I'm very interested in your ideas, and would like to know more, however I find following this thread extremely difficult as ther eis so much technical information that's goes straight over my head.
I know this is a big ask, but would there be any chance of writing the main information up into a document that's easier to follow, and either putting it on a web site, or offering it via email ?



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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90488 - 09/30/00 09:25 AM (23 years, 9 months ago)

Just thought this was intersting and wanted to bring back up again. :biggrin:

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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90489 - 09/30/00 11:08 AM (23 years, 9 months ago)

Sasha Shulgin [sp?, author of TIHKAL, PIHKAL] made a brief statement during a lecture last summer about having boosted psilocybin content of cubies to 3% by adding DMT to [either substrate or casing, can't remember].
Just a bit of anecdotal evidence from a true chemical wizard, he didn't mention anything about affected yields, etc.

Hmmmmm, I wonder what would happen if you replaced timothy hay cob with phalaris :smile:

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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90490 - 09/30/00 08:39 PM (23 years, 9 months ago)

PsiliPharm...so do you think 5-HTP would bring up the amount of psylocybin in the mushrooms? How much?

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Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
    #90491 - 10/01/00 10:28 AM (23 years, 9 months ago)

I just read here somewhere about a chilli powder and water mix being sprayed on the casing. It is said to iritate the shroom and so it makes more Psilocin. I haven't tryed this yet, but it sounds easyer than the stuff above. Has anyone tryed it?

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