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Invisibleangryshroom
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Genetics of Mushrooms...
    #642881 - 05/24/02 08:34 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I aquired a print from a guy named Olgualion quite some time ago. He said the print came from one of these mushrooms: Come on in and enjoy the freaks .

Here is the mushrooms were I got the print from:


Now my question is, if the print was from one of those weird looking shrooms, is there a probability that I would too get the same sort of fruits?

The reason I ask is that I have had my two casings in my chamber for a week and a half now, and the pins (or what I think are pins at the moment) are big, hard mycelium balls. They are about 5-6 mm in diameter, but dont have a brown head. Is this a trait of an Amazonian strain, or are they just going to come out as mutant freaks like the post above?

They really dont look like normal pins, and Id usually see primordia developing by now. Got everything setup good. Guess its just time to wait and see what happends.

Also, If I had a light mixture of h2o2 and water in my misting bottle, could this have screwed around with my casing as well? It was probably between 5 and 10% h2o2 to water. (3% h2o2).


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Offlinebaraka
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: angryshroom]
    #642899 - 05/24/02 08:46 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ive seen Mexicubes make lumps like what i think yer talken about.

They would come out as a stem with out a cap. or if they aborted just be a round ball of flesh.

Actually ive seen a few strains make the round ball abort type deals but only mexicubes make the headless dudes. I dunno if this helps.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: baraka]
    #643171 - 05/24/02 11:40 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Well, yes I too have seen this happen. I was just wondering tho if the traits were passed down through spores.


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Offlineaural
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: angryshroom]
    #643325 - 05/24/02 01:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Traits are not necessarily passed down through the spores.
Each spore has 1/2 of the genetic information.When a bunch of spores germinate,these 1/2s combine to make the whole complete set of chromosomes.The resultant mycelium may or may not have the right combo of genes to express a certain trait.

But a spore print has all the genetic potential there.If you are looking for a certain trait,the best way to procede is to highly dilute the spores and subculture many different colonies.This way you will be working with more genetically distinct material.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: aural]
    #643329 - 05/24/02 01:24 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So.... if you take two similar, but slightly different mushrooms spores (from 2 different species) they'd grow into a different species?


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Offlinelithiumcove
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #643392 - 05/24/02 02:16 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Genetics is universal be it mushrooms, plants, or humans. A new species is only created when the two similar species cease to mate. If the two can mate, it's still the same species.



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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: aural]
    #643441 - 05/24/02 02:46 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So you're saying that it is possible that I get weirdo fruits like that then? Were the fruits in the above picture also caused by the growing circumstances or was it the strain itself?

I hope I dont get those unhealty looking shrooms. I mean it would be OK if it was a lot of em, but, it looks like they werent very dense.


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Offlineaural
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: lithiumcove]
    #643442 - 05/24/02 02:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Most of what people discuss here is all the same species:Cubensis.
All those other names-Thai,B+,Gulf Coast,etc would be called strains or varieties.
They differ either cause they were collected in different places,or they have some relatively minor observable physical differences,but they are genetically and taxonomically the same specii.

These strains could definitely cross with each other.The problem is,it's hard to tell if and when this has happened.It's not like you could take a single spore from 2 different varieties and mate them.


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Offlineaural
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: angryshroom]
    #643450 - 05/24/02 02:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Possible yes,but not definite.
Could be caused by environmental factors,but I don't think that conc. of H2O2 would do that.

Or it could be genetic....guess you'll find out soon ;-}


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Offliner05c03
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: aural]
    #644272 - 05/25/02 04:45 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Most of what people discuss here is all the same species

They are assumed to be the same species however there are several definitions of what a species is so in some cases they may not be.

These strains could definitely cross with each other.The problem is,it's hard to tell if and when this has happened.It's not like you could take a single spore from 2 different varieties and mate them.

I do not know if you can safely assume that they would all cross. Doing single spore mating in not that hard, but it does require a scope and lots of agar / plates. Interestingly enough this whole group of fungi is woefully under studied from a genetics stand point. It would be great if some brave researcher would take up the cause. It would be really interesting to do studies seing as the worldwide rescources are readily available from vendors. Oh well, we will just have to wait.




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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: r05c03]
    #653317 - 05/30/02 12:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

To the contrary, psilocybe cubensis is one of the most studied fungi. Real researchers just don't investigate the trivial things that most of us are interested in. After successfully crossing many strains of cubensis, why would they bother crossing every other strain sold by internet vendors? They get their spores from banks and the like.

Genetics can cause things like you describe and shown in the picture. More often than not (especially true with the amazonians) is that genetics gives them a tendency to be like that. If conditions are controlled perfectly, they can come out normal. For example, amazonians are prone to bloating by soaking up excess moisture from their immediate environment. A casing of amazonians may have the exact same moisture content that worked fine with other strains, but the amazonian is predisposed to soaking up water, so it bloats and fat-asses. Grown on a cake away from moist perlite where it can't soak up too much water or in a slightly drier casing mix however, it can grow perfectly fine.

So to answer your question, likely genetics and environment are involved. But when you get down to it, ugly shrooms are just as much fun as beautiful shrooms, believe me, I've eaten plenty of both. And finicky strains are more challenging and fun than simple all around strains. You learn alot about the more subtle arts of manipulation the cultivator does innadvertantly via environmental control, when the effects of your manipulations are magnified by genetics.


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I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: mycofile]
    #655806 - 05/31/02 02:10 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If you havent already, Ive posted pics of these guys. And, in fact they are mutants like shrooms that the spore print came from...just thought taht was interesting.


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Offliner05c03
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: mycofile]
    #656826 - 06/01/02 04:09 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Well studied? perhaps 20 years ago, perhaps longer. There has been essnetially no research on the relationship of these fungi for awhile. Try to do the phyologenetics on these fungi. You cant. There are no sequences to be had from Genebank or anywhere else.

However, i do agree with you about the environment coming into play.


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Offliner05c03
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: mycofile]
    #656841 - 06/01/02 04:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, so I decided to go back and search the literature before I opened my big fat mouth. I still could not find alot of info that did no relate to taxonomic identification and or the effect/chemistry of various psilocybes. In reference to the chemistry and taxonomy they are well studied. However their biological or phyogenetic relationships still seem to be woefully underdeveloped, especially in light of their world wide distribution and prominence in society. If you have refs for mating studies with these fungi I would be interested.

I did find this ref. Some one is actually doing some DNA identification work....but they are doing for law enforcment. Fuckers.

TI: Identification of members of the genera Panaeolus and Psilocybe by a DNA test: A preliminary test for hallucinogenic fungi.
AU: Lee-James-Chun-I; Cole-Michael; Linacre-Adrian {a}
SO: Forensic-Science-International. [print] August 14, 2000; 112 (2-3): 123-133..
PY: 2000
LA: English
AB: Abuse of hallucinogens produced by the fungal genera Psilocybe and Panaeolus are a growing problem. Five species from each of the two genera were examined in this preliminary research and a method that will unambiguously identify fungal samples as being of one of these two genera has been developed. The method uses genus specific DNA sequences within the Internal Transcribed Spacer of the ribosomal gene complex. Amplification of a common DNA product and a genus specific product results in two identifiable products, which facilitates the unambiguous identification of material from these two fungi to generic level.


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: r05c03]
    #657103 - 06/01/02 09:15 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

That is interesting. Only psiloc/yb/in is illegal, not the genus and species. That test would be positive on a spore print, and likely several-fold more sensitive in general. Someone must have lost a court case or two using previous forensic tests.

Regarding the genetics, the cost will become cheaper and the technology more available. Not many researchers, even mycology-bent ones, will jeopardize a grant by implementing an illegal step [even on agar].
The way to do it, though it's presently very expensive, is to amplify and sequence a conserved region of the dna [ribosomal, maybe] from a series of samples. Based on the random accumulation of mutations in the intronic/non coding regions [e.g. your Internal Transcribed Spacer] you can estimate genetic divergence. Sort of like an atomic clock in a way. There are computer programs that can do most of the work, producing a divergence map, a very accurate one depending on the number of submissions. This map is based only on number of generations, though, not length of time. . . so that the PF strain will likely be noticeably-diverged even though it's only been around a nanosecond of evolutionary time.

Anyone want to pitch in on the sequencing fund?

Over time, buying into the species arguments less and less. "Two organisms that produce fertile offspring." or something like that. How about a bobcat and a housecat? A wolf and a dog? I once saw a horse give birth to a zebra, and I have heard of very rare fertile mules. The lines are fuzzy because biology is fuzzy.
By focusing on the genetic code and actually measuring ticks of DNA replication time we can get an almost irrefutable view of these relationships. Mating compatability, while very important, just isn't going to cut it after a certain point.


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Offlinerosewoodpete
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: Suntzu]
    #657134 - 06/01/02 09:35 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Something interesting about mushroom genetics and their calssification is that although psilocybin cubensis mushrooms are all classified as the same species, many different strains exsist within that group that will not "mate" with each other.
A new system for classifying them needs to be used but most likely never will be. Those little bumps you were talking about in your substrate are what is know as hypnal knots. They grow on to form pins if they are lucky and healthy.


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Anonymous

Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: rosewoodpete]
    #657936 - 06/01/02 08:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Can someone please point me to the study that showed these strains DO NOT mate with each other.


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Offliner05c03
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Re: Genetics of Mushrooms... [Re: ]
    #658379 - 06/02/02 05:17 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I am waiting to see that info too..... It would be nice. It would be great if someone would do the phylogenetics too. But that takes a real lab, PCR machines, essentially legitimate research. It is possible though for sure. I would think many researchers (possibly myself included) won't do the work do to the legalities.


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