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Re: Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8461683 -

Well with no memory of anything for 8 hours... I feel you get a sense of what nonexistence would be like.

What?

or

You've outdone yourself with non-sense statements.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8461700 -

8 hours of sleep....?    Try 4-5 hours....!    That is enough non-existence for me....
Hopefully, non-existence doesn't not have alarm clocks....    :cuss:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury [Re: Icelander]
    #8461759 -

Icelander said:
Well with no memory of anything for 8 hours... I feel you get a sense of what nonexistence would be like.

What?

or

You've outdone yourself with non-sense statements.:lol:


Is that too much of a stretch for yer fuckin frail ass??:lol:

Geezer...:mad2:

Ooooo flame...  Fuck it.

Love all around.:heartpump:


--------------------

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Re: Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury [Re: Icelander]
    #8461767 -

Icelander said:
redgreenvines said:
you have to lover her as she is
everything else is too much work


You mean this kind of lovering?:doggystyle::lol:




These are just GOLD, btw.:rolleyes:

:lol:


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Re: Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8461902 -

Whatever happens after death may be similar to what happened before birth...

If only I could remember...

:shrug:

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8462978 -

Senor_Hongos said:
Veritas said:
They sound fairly inseparable to me.  :shrug:


Good answer.  Are they at least analytically distinct?


In the same sense that "legs" are distinct from "walking," the brain is distinct from the mind.

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Veritas]
    #8463447 -

Doesn't seem like a good analogy, being a noun and a verb.

Much like "brain" and "thinking", rather than "brain" and "mind" - two nouns.

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Compass]
    #8463451 -

The mind is the activity of the brain, just as walking is the activity of the legs.  Without legs, one cannot walk, and without a brain, one does not have a mind. I don't particularly care whether the words are identical parts of speech, as I am not taking the SAT test.  :lol:

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Veritas]
    #8463608 -

Well, there are several different directions we could go then. Your analogy, being an analogy, has some weakness--all analogies do. The first that leaps to mind (pardon the pun) is that we can empirically observe the legs. We cannot do so with the mind. Legs and walking are physical; the mind and thinking are mental. Of course, one could argue that mental activity is merely the result of electrical impulses or chemical reactions.

Where are concepts located?


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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8463627 -

We can empirically observe mental activity, aka "mind," and we can also extrapolate from data regarding what is lost after an injury to the brain. Concepts are located in the memory centers of the brain, and can be lost via physical injury (see: amnesia).

Where do you think concepts are located, if not within the brain? Why do you claim that we cannot observe the mind? How would you differentiate between the observable, measurable, easily damaged activity of the physical brain vs. the mind?

Edited by Veritas (05/30/08 02:38 PM)

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Veritas]
    #8463710 -

To state that mental activity is the same as electrical impulses or chemical reactions begs the question of whether they are the same thing. In other words, are electrical impulses and chemcial reactions a necessary condition for mental activity or a sufficient condition for mental activity?

Concepts are not memories, nor do I think they are located there. Memories are comprised of sense perceptions stored in some fashion, in the brain. Concepts are immaterial, the means whereby we recognize individuals belonging to a certain class, i.e. universals. Nothing that exists as a universal can* be stored in matter because it isn't matter, it is mind.

*Edit: changed cannot to can after rereading it.

Edited by Senor_Hongos (05/30/08 09:16 PM)

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8463740 -

Quote:
In other words, are electrical impulses and chemcial reactions a necessary condition for mental activity


Is this a serious question?


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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8463751 -

You have to read the entire sentence.

Is it a necessary condition or a sufficient condition? The two are not the same. Oxygen is a necessary condition for fire. However, you need more than oxygen to have a fire.

The combination of oxygen, fuel and heat make a sufficient condition for fire.


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Re: Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8463893 -

There's as much evidence FOR life after death as there is AGAINST it. That is to say: absolutely none.

I reserve judgment on the matter

There is as much evidence for the existence of the Tooth Fairy as against her.

I'm curious: Do you reserve judgment on her existence or do you pretty much consider it a practical near-certainty that she doesn't exist?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8463951 -

Senor_Hongos said:
To state that mental activity is the same as electrical impulses or chemical reactions begs the question of whether they are the same thing. In other words, are electrical impulses and chemcial reactions a necessary condition for mental activity or a sufficient condition for mental activity?


Well, as every test in which we can ask whether someone is thinking has shown that electrochemical activity occurs concurrent with mental activity, it seems likely that the two are the same. In situations where there is no measurable brain activity, the individual cannot comment as to their mental activity.

Quote:
Concepts are not memories, nor do I think they are located there. Memories are comprised of sense perceptions stored in some fashion, in the brain. Concepts are immaterial, the means whereby we recognize individuals belonging to a certain class, i.e. universals. Nothing that exists as a universal cannot be stored in matter because it isn't matter, it is mind.


Actually, a concept is an idea. What you are describing is an archetype.

If we did not have memories of classes, how would we pattern-match in order to determine the class of someone in our present awareness? Are you claiming that these concepts exist within our mind prior to learning about them? Are you further claiming that damage to the memory center of the brain would not remove our knowledge of concepts?

You did not answer my question as to how you would differentiate between the qualities of brain activity and the immaterial mind of which you speak.

Edited by Veritas (05/30/08 04:36 PM)

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Veritas]
    #8464410 -

Veritas said:
Senor_Hongos said:
To state that mental activity is the same as electrical impulses or chemical reactions begs the question of whether they are the same thing. In other words, are electrical impulses and chemcial reactions a necessary condition for mental activity or a sufficient condition for mental activity?


Well, as every test in which we can ask whether someone is thinking has shown that electrochemical activity occurs concurrent with mental activity, it seems likely that the two are the same. In situations where there is no measurable brain activity, the individual cannot comment as to their mental activity.




Due to time contraints I only have one comment for the moment. I agree with your description above. However, that only shows us if electrochemical activity is a necessary condition for thought; it does not tell us if the electrochemical activity is a sufficient condition for thought.*

*See my reply to Orgone.


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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8464531 -

This only suggests that there might be other conditions involved in consciousness. In your example with oxygen, it is clear that fire does not occur every time oxygen is present, so we know that other conditions are required. This is not so with consciousness, as what we can establish is the absolute link between the physical brain and our ability to be aware. Your claims regarding an immaterial mind are conjecture.

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Re: Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8464788 -

backfromthedead said:
Icelander said:
Well with no memory of anything for 8 hours... I feel you get a sense of what nonexistence would be like.

What?

or

You've outdone yourself with non-sense statements.:lol:


Is that too much of a stretch for yer fuckin frail ass??:lol:

Geezer...:mad2:

Ooooo flame...  Fuck it.

Love all around.:heartpump:


From your response it looks like I offended your self-importance. Along with the fact that you only complained about my reply rather than explaining how it was incorrect.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Veritas]
    #8464896 -

Veritas said:
This only suggests that there might be other conditions involved in consciousness. In your example with oxygen, it is clear that fire does not occur every time oxygen is present, so we know that other conditions are required. This is not so with consciousness, as what we can establish is the absolute link between the physical brain and our ability to be aware. Your claims regarding an immaterial mind are conjecture.


Establishing a necessary condition and postulating it is a sufficient condition is pure conjecture. (Although I would use the word hypotheis instead.

Edited by Senor_Hongos (05/30/08 09:09 PM)

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Re: Partial brain unjury vs. total brain injury [Re: Veritas]
    #8465021 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
Concepts are not memories, nor do I think they are located there. Memories are comprised of sense perceptions stored in some fashion, in the brain. Concepts are immaterial, the means whereby we recognize individuals belonging to a certain class, i.e. universals. Nothing that exists as a universal cannot be stored in matter because it isn't matter, it is mind.


Actually, a concept is an idea. What you are describing is an archetype.

If we did not have memories of classes, how would we pattern-match in order to determine the class of someone in our present awareness? Are you claiming that these concepts exist within our mind prior to learning about them? Are you further claiming that damage to the memory center of the brain would not remove our knowledge of concepts?



We have no memories of classes, we have memories of individual members of a class. Universals cannot be represented in the material world. Please show us, if you can, a picture of dog--not A dog or a series of individual dogs, a picture of dog.

Then, when you have completed that show us a picture of justice, or liberty, or freedom--not an example, but the concept itself.

Conflating concepts with ideas is an old philosophical mistake leading to empirical mistakes like the one you are making.

You do realize, don't you, that there are hundreds if not thousands of books written on this subject and the debate has no end? In the end, there are only positions, some are rational, some are less so.



Quote:
If we did not have memories of classes, how would we pattern-match in order to determine the class of someone in our present awareness?



By conceptual abstraction located in the mind.



Quote:
Are you claiming that these concepts exist within our mind prior to learning about them?



No. This is conjecture, but I would suppose classes (universals) are learned while we are perceiving individual instances, however, that does not make them memories of classes; it makes them a concept.


Quote:
Are you further claiming that damage to the memory center of the brain would not remove our knowledge of concepts?



As far as we know, the brain is a necessary condition for thought, that would include concepts. Since the brain is a necessary condition, though not as I am postulating a sufficient one, for thought it would be reasonable to conclude (as if one could escape it) that damage to the brain could remove memories as well as concepts. It is also incorrect to say we have knowledge of concepts if you are saying we are aware of concepts as a mechanism whereby we think. We have no awareness of concepts. That is another conflation of concepts/ideas and thoughts.

Remember I told you in the other thread that I only engage in matters I am interested in and not just some statement I have made sometime, somewhere. This is why. In order to fully understand something, or approach a better understanding, it takes enormous amounts of time and energy. There are only so many hours in a day and we all have only so much energy.


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