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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist
    #956687 - 10/13/02 12:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Was watching a documentary on Egyptology and the unearthing of ancient tombs and artifacts. The Minister of Egyptology decried the immoral grave robbers while committing exactly the same acts. Both groups completely violated the wishes of those who buried their dead. Both groups desecrated the tombs. However, the Egyptologists pilfered the tombs in the name of history and with the sanction of the state.

How much time must pass before it is socially acceptable to rob a grave? How many experts does it take to declare an act to be moral? Can an act be moral for some, but immoral for others?


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (10/13/02 12:46 PM)


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #956698 - 10/13/02 12:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Can an act be moral for some, but immoral for others? "

in reality, no.
socially today, yes


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: CleverName]
    #956722 - 10/13/02 12:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The problem is that grave-robbing isn't all that immoral. The problem is that the robbers destroyed things that aren't easily replaced, instead of allowing them to be preserved for the knowledge of all. It's like the difference between a anthropologist trying to learn about a culture and invaders slaughtering it and taking it's gold.

Graves themselves are immoral if looked at from a ecological perspective. Nature gave us this biomass for us to live in for a while. When we're done with it, instead of making efficient use of it (anything from organ donation to cannabilism to burial without a casket), we shut it in a box so noone else can gain any benefit from it.

All moral judgements seem to break down like this. Perhaps there's no such thing as "wrong"? Is there really much difference between giving someone lots of mushrooms (knowing that if their egos truly understood what they were doing they would not be taking the mushrooms) and killing them? Maybe everything's really OK?


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Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: xganon]
    #956746 - 10/13/02 01:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

its not that everythings ok, but that nothing is wrong. everything is where it should be


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Offlinekrispyfi
lumber tyrant
Registered: 10/03/01
Posts: 320
Loc: se usa
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #956760 - 10/13/02 01:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i was surprised that this post came from you. usually you fight on the side of science. any way, in response to your question, dead people do not (or should not) have rights. they have no awareness of their existence, they are not rational, and they cannot experience pain or frustration. it would be morally acceptable to manhandle corpses in any way that you please (including necrophilia), if it weren't for the distress it would cause on the living.


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If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.


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Offlinekrispyfi
lumber tyrant
Registered: 10/03/01
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #956765 - 10/13/02 01:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

oh, pardon me, i think i misread your post. carry on...


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If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #956771 - 10/13/02 01:29 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hehehe  I think I just watched the same documentary Swami.  :smile:

  I thought the same thing.  They are the same except in how people percieve them.  I know some will argue that the Arch's are studying them and blah blah blah, but if you consider the implications of their actions from the perspective of the egyptian, you will see that it is irrelevant. 
  They believed that the objects, servants, food, etc that was buried with them goes on with them to the afterlife.  The afterlife lasts an eternity in almost all religions.  If these objects are removed from the tomb, MAYBE the egyptian loses them in the afterlife.  If we remove the body from the sarcophagus, maybe the person themself is thrown out of the afterlife to some sort of hell. 
  This may all sound wacky but do we really know?  We still know hardly anything about these people and their beliefs.  But we are curious and they have gotten PhD's from college, so its ok right. 
  Grave robbers and archeologists are one in the same.  The only difference is that one had to waste 6-8 years going to school to do the same job.     


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Anonymous

Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #956776 - 10/13/02 01:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Achaeologists dig up the dead to learn about their culture. Grave robbers dig up the dead for personal profit. One benifits society as a whole, the other does not. You are right that both would be considered grave robbing by the Egyptians, but they are gone and thus it doesn't matter.


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Anonymous]
    #956787 - 10/13/02 01:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

maybe they should take the artifacts, study them, make plasters, or whatever, then try to restore the tombs. or something like that.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Anonymous]
    #956793 - 10/13/02 01:44 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Grave robbers dig up the dead for personal profit. One benifits society as a whole, the other does not.



So, wrong becomes right when there are more people benefiting from the wrong?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #956817 - 10/13/02 02:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Good post. Everyone is saying how grave robbing is wrong and archeology is for science and all that, but in both cases, the grave robber/archeologist is gaining something (material wealth or historical knowledge) at the expense of the dead.

There is no moral difference.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Evolving]
    #956933 - 10/13/02 02:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So, wrong becomes right when there are more people benefiting from the wrong?

That certainly is one take. Wrong becomes right from the perspective of those commiting the acts. Thus is the beauty of rationalizing one's actions.

How many Americans today would object to digging up Arlington cemetary, even for the "good of society"? A vast majority would be appalled at even the suggestion as that ground is considered sacrosanct. As people today do not honor the ancient Egyptian taboos (even though we hold similar but different beliefs), then it is "acceptable" to violate them.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (10/14/02 01:55 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #957980 - 10/13/02 10:02 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps you've watched some of those TLC programs on TV and seen Dr. Bob Brier - a gaunt, curly-haired Egyptologist who made the first mummy in 2000 years at the University of Maryland. Bob is a former professior of mine, who might point out to you the differences between the 'Ka' and the 'Ba' souls, and further point out that these archaeological discoveries will help to preserve the sanctity of those mummies who are now in museums. Their fate, as the fate of many other mummies, may have become the mere desecration in search for riches. Tutankamon in the hands of grave robbers would be considered a greater profanation by a modernity that the Pharoahs never could have foreseen even with all of their magicians.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/13/02 10:03 PM)


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Offlinekrispyfi
lumber tyrant
Registered: 10/03/01
Posts: 320
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Evolving]
    #958018 - 10/13/02 10:22 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

that is the whole basis for consequentialism. there is no absolute wrong or right. the only right is that action which causes the greatest good (pleasure) and the least evil (pain) to the greatest number of sentient beings. kill 1000 babies if it means saving 1001. you are probably an absolitust, which means that killing is always wrong for you, even if killing 1 baby will save 10000000.


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If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.


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Anonymous

Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: krispyfi]
    #958051 - 10/13/02 10:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Wow someone used a philosophical term.

Excuse me while I faint.

Thud


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OfflineBeauville
Satyr

Registered: 10/13/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #958244 - 10/13/02 11:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What a splendid argument!
I liked this concept :

"in both cases, the grave robber/archeologist is gaining something (material wealth or historical knowledge) at the expense of the dead."
I think that the issue is really one of Society as a whole deciding that it is acceptable. Instead of an individual benefiting from inconsiderate desecration for a singular gain, an "entire Society" can benefit from inconsiderate desecration and therefore it is ok.
I think that if so many "acts that benefit society" weren't spun with such convincing media force all the sheep would not go along with it or at the least not be fooled into thinking that it will actually benefit them in a real way. And besides, how many people from that part of the world do you think actually benefit fom their ancestors being displayed in western civilizaton with all the pretty neon signs saying $1 admission. I think It's P.T.Barnum syndrome with the spin being on historical relevance.

Ah, what the hell do I know. I just think if I went and dug up my neighbors' mothers' grave to examine her antique petticoat so that I could furter my knowlege on that part of history he would be a scotch miffed.


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"...spite to all the genre elitists."
"...just because you feel sorry for someone is no reason to be nice to them."
"May all your corvettes be stingray convertibles, and may all your doses be heroic"


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Beauville]
    #958362 - 10/14/02 12:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I read your profile... your homepage is rather interesting.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: krispyfi]
    #959139 - 10/14/02 07:08 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In the words of Dave Mustaine:


...And when you Kill a man, you're a murderer
Kill many, and you're a conquerer
Kill them all.... OOoooOOOoohhhhhhh You're a God!


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #959429 - 10/14/02 12:28 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Exactly.

There is a reason for the cliche line: "Might makes right."
It is true. The victors write the history books and the dead don't complain about any shady misinterpretations of the facts.
In 200 years the kids will be learning how the GREAT DUBYA vanquished evil. Even though in reality, he is a fucking moron and he couldn't accomplish tying his shoes without daddy's help. I wonder how many of are founding fathers were stupid. We wouldn't know because history is inherently biased towards our "rightful" perspective.

And to answer stonedfish:
Hitler believed that he was benefitting society by eradicating (Vernichtung) the Jews.

Can anybody name one thing that we learned from robbing dead egyptians that benefitted their life?? Other than useless knowledge I can't think of anything.


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #959571 - 10/14/02 01:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Can anybody name one thing that we learned from robbing dead egyptians that benefitted their life?? Other than useless knowledge I can't think of anything."

theres no such thing as useless knowledge.
why just say the egyptians got screwed? even in christianity artifacts are researched and studied, and if they ever found jesus' body, believe you me, they would autopsy that shit. NOTHING IS SACRED.
remember, its the egyptian gov't allows this to go on.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: ]
    #959600 - 10/14/02 01:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Wow someone used a philosophical term.

Please ban the poster or explain the rules.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: CleverName]
    #959711 - 10/14/02 02:48 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

theres no such thing as useless knowledge.

Ok instead of arguing about the "useless knowledge" point, let's argue whether we should have the right to exhume corpses simply to satisfy our curiousity. And the jesus point doesn't hold water since it is christianity's assertion that the body is only a recepticle for the soul. The soul lives on in heaven and the empty husk rots on earth. The egyptians didn't view the material world as a transition. They needed those bowls and foodstuffs in the next life. By taking it away we are destroying their spiritual selves.
Of course this is all conjecture as I don't believe in any life after death. But it does show the inherent nature in society to destroy one thing in order to save something else.


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #959998 - 10/14/02 04:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are not your khakis, but you ARE your pottery that's buried with your mummified corpse?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #960243 - 10/14/02 06:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In 200 years the kids will be learning how the GREAT DUBYA vanquished evil. Even though in reality, he is a fucking moron and he couldn't accomplish tying his shoes without daddy's help. I wonder how many of are founding fathers were stupid. We wouldn't know because history is inherently biased towards our "rightful" perspective.

Be aware that the current textbooks honor Clinton as one of the three best Presidents to serve in office. In 200 years I doubt that either one of them will make as much as a footnote. But as neither one of us will be around to see the point is moot now isn't it?

Cheers,


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #960259 - 10/14/02 06:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

by law we do have the right.
by moral values, i personally think the information about our past is worth the digging. we've learned many things about ancient cultures, by studying their dead, and where their dead were buried....grave sites are religious hotbeds for info.....you have to know where you come from to see where you are going, blah blah blah


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


Edited by CleverName (10/14/02 06:41 PM)


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Offlinekrispyfi
lumber tyrant
Registered: 10/03/01
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Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #960420 - 10/14/02 07:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

do modern egyptians identify with ancient egyptians enough to be personally offended by this "grave robbing"?


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If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Sclorch]
    #960704 - 10/14/02 08:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are not your khakis, but you ARE your pottery that's buried with your mummified corpse?

I never said I was an egyptian.  I was merely arguing against digging them up and displaying them against their wishes.  And the current government in Egypt has about as much right to dig them up as Americans do of stuffing the Indians on reservations after stealing their land. 

I never said I personally was against it.  I was merely pointing out that I didn't think there was a difference between a guy digging it up and selling it to a collector or a PhD digging it up for his salary at the university.  They are both doing the EXACT same thing for the EXACT same reason.  Money.  The same reason the evangelists do that whole revival thing and the same reason people sell Khakis to other people.  And the same reason Amerca goes to war.  MONEY!!  ARGHGHGHGHHGHGHGHG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I HATE SOCIETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ok I'm better now.  Where was I?  :confused:

Oh yes
by law we do have the right.

No we don't.  Laws do not equal "right."  Never have, never will.  Please refer to my previous post about "Might makes Right"  By law, Hitler had a right to annihilate the Jews but it was still viewed as wrong by outsiders.  By law, Taliban has the right to blow shit up.  And now by law, Dubya has the right to bomb the shit out of them back.  Law doesn't equal right. 

If law is right as Clevername says, why are we all posting on a site about "Illegal Mushrooms?"  By law they are illegal.  Any person talking about the laws of this country being right while posting on this page is a hypocrite.  I have never stood behind this country.  We are a country run by hypocrites.  And I despise hypocrites.       
     


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #960909 - 10/14/02 10:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I was just fuckin' witcha man. :wink:
hehehe 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #961025 - 10/14/02 10:48 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, but tell us how you really feel.

This time don't hold back. :smile:


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #961159 - 10/14/02 11:28 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i tried to divide law and moral if you look at my post.
i never said the law was always right, why do you jump to conclusions?
i did say that i think digging is ok for educational value.

comparing hitler using law to kill jews, and the taliban to digging up ancient burial grounds are so different, it doesnt even fit.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


Edited by CleverName (10/15/02 12:05 PM)


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OfflineBeauville
Satyr

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 46
Loc: suitcase city
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: ]
    #961584 - 10/15/02 01:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"But as neither one of us will be around to see the point is moot now isn't it?"

Damn Plato, you can squish an ego withe the bat of your marble eye...



--------------------
"...spite to all the genre elitists."
"...just because you feel sorry for someone is no reason to be nice to them."
"May all your corvettes be stingray convertibles, and may all your doses be heroic"


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Anonymous

Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Beauville]
    #961597 - 10/15/02 01:29 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:grin:

Depends, just like the adult diaper, some are unsquishible.

Cheers, 


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Offlinejayson
earthling
Male
Registered: 08/07/02
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Loc: Vic Australia
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: ]
    #962080 - 10/15/02 04:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The difference is that the archaeologists dig up graves of people that have no living relatives to worry about it. So no one is hurt.
And if your worried about the wishes of the dead. Their dead how do you know what their wishes are. What they wanted when they were alive, and what they care about now, are probably two different things.
If people think that its immoral, then they should wake up.  The same people probably don't mind eating the flesh of dead animals. Is that immoral.  :confused: What makes a human carcass more important than any other animal. 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: jayson]
    #962101 - 10/15/02 05:24 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What about a man's dying wishes?

Doesn't that matter at all?




If we treat our dead like animals treat their dead, then we would be no better than animals.



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OfflineBeauville
Satyr

Registered: 10/13/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #964492 - 10/15/02 11:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So then I guess the real argument now is:

*At what point does your body become public property?*

And by that I mean that it would be accepted by 99.9% of everyone as non-offensive or violating...

Is there a point that it is possible?

I think the only case that I could bring up is that of Pompeii or any of the Ice-men. And that is ancient history... but even an argument could be made against those cases as well...


--------------------
"...spite to all the genre elitists."
"...just because you feel sorry for someone is no reason to be nice to them."
"May all your corvettes be stingray convertibles, and may all your doses be heroic"


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Beauville]
    #964634 - 10/16/02 12:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I say Fuck it... when I'm dead, I'm gone... let the necrophiliacs have their way.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they should fuck my dead corpse in front of my family and friends *shudders*... I'm just saying that I won't be there to give a shit.


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OfflineBeauville
Satyr

Registered: 10/13/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Sclorch]
    #964678 - 10/16/02 01:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Well then "chief",  I suppose you were clever enough to read more than the bold font? :grin: 


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"...spite to all the genre elitists."
"...just because you feel sorry for someone is no reason to be nice to them."
"May all your corvettes be stingray convertibles, and may all your doses be heroic"


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Beauville]
    #964721 - 10/16/02 01:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I suppose...

Goddamn is your avatar creepy.


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Offlinejayson
earthling
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Registered: 08/07/02
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966607 - 10/16/02 06:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What about a man's dying wishes?

What about  his house + car. These things are divided up and used by the living. The body is no different than any other possession. So then should we lock up the dead mans house + car for all eternity.  "The mans dying wishes", were given when he was living. Since he did not know what was to come when he died, he could not make a sound + rational judgment as what should be done with his body.

If we treat our dead like animals treat their dead, then we would be no better than animals. 

We are animals.  :confused:  To think that you are somehow grander than any other species of animal, is delusional. 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: jayson]
    #966677 - 10/16/02 07:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What about his house + car. These things are divided up and used by the living. The body is no different than any other possession

The body is no different than his car?

Since he did not know what was to come when he died, he could not make a sound + rational judgment as what should be done with his body.

That's not the point. It's not about his wishes when he's dead, it's about his dying wishes, when he's alive.

We are animals. To think that you are somehow grander than any other species of animal, is delusional.

Speak for yourself.. yes we are animals and we are so much more... excuse my delusion.


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OfflineBeauville
Satyr

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966799 - 10/16/02 07:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I am not going off on any religious kick here by any means, but I have to admit that I always feel as if my body is just on loan. (and whenever I have a loaner car I return the motherfker beat like neal cassidy).

What does a hunk of evacuated flesh have to do with any of this anyhow? I thought this was about duality (or morality) of excuse (or reason) to take advantage of a given resouce. In the above example a lot of waste that somone has left behind ( something that is left by someone with out ability or intent ot use it is waste.) is considered the resource.


--------------------
"...spite to all the genre elitists."
"...just because you feel sorry for someone is no reason to be nice to them."
"May all your corvettes be stingray convertibles, and may all your doses be heroic"


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OfflineBeauville
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966857 - 10/16/02 08:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

*What about a man's dying wishes?
Doesn't that matter at all?
If we treat our dead like animals treat their dead, then we would be no better than animals.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i
I have severe interpretive issues with this entire post.
#1
I think that when you are at the point of death it's a bit too late to start making wishes. First there is no damn chance that you will be able to help them occur and that is stupid egotism to expect othes to do so especially since you will shortly not be there for them. Secondly these "wishes" as cliche' names them... they hold olnly as much value as those who are left behind give them. I know many people that ignore or totally miss important things that are said to them in real time every day. These same buggers would consider it a "life altering experience if someone said anything to them as their last words... the asses.
So hithero, no it does not matter for the sake of mattering unless I am given a chance to understand the meaning behind them and decide if they are worhwhile and true.

#2 "If we treat our dead like animals treat their dead, then we would be no better than animals. "

Oh do come on....
WHy does it all of a sudden become "my dead"? Keep you dead to yourself. (hehheh)
But seriously, when was the last time you visited yourr dead relatives? How many of you atually decide after someone dies to change the way you live?

I don't know, infidelGOD.... that post just seemed like you pulled out the stops on cliche' and went for it with not even a bit of originality or reflective tthought in between...

just because i think that you are wrong, still doesn't mean I'll give you a bad rating or think that you're a fool... I just want you to elaborate... at least give me a reason to try and see it your way.


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"...spite to all the genre elitists."
"...just because you feel sorry for someone is no reason to be nice to them."
"May all your corvettes be stingray convertibles, and may all your doses be heroic"


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Offlinejayson
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #966983 - 10/16/02 09:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The body is no different than his car?

The body is simply a vehicle that's no longer needed after death.
If you believe the body is the self, then when your dead your gone, you no longer exist. So you don't care ether way.



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Offlinejayson
earthling
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #967589 - 10/17/02 12:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Speak for yourself.. yes we are animals and we are so much more... excuse my delusion.

In what way are we so much more. What our brain.  :confused: If so then is someone who drives a V8 better than a person who drives a MINI. This can only be the case if you consider your self to be a brain in a body. 
I myself do not consider myself to be the car i drive, nor the body i inhabit. 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: jayson]
    #967943 - 10/17/02 03:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I am the process called Sclorch (at least... in HERE).


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Beauville]
    #968088 - 10/17/02 04:46 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

... they hold olnly as much value as those who are left behind give them

Exactly, life is for the living and the dead are also for the living. We preserve the dead for the living, not for the dead.

I'm not saying that a dead man has any wishes...

Are you saying that we should ignore a dying man's wishes after he dies because he is no longer living and so no longer cares? kind of harsh don't you think?

A man in a vegatative state might not have any wishes, he doesn't care if he lives or dies, so is his body a "resource"? "public property"?

If dead bodies are just "resources" to you, what should be done with them? (since you apparently think honoring their wishes and burying them is a selfish "egotistical" act.)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: jayson]
    #968089 - 10/17/02 04:46 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In what way are we so much more

If you can't see it then I'm sorry, I can't explain it to you.


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Offlinejayson
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #968270 - 10/17/02 07:47 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I see fine.  :smirk: 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #969871 - 10/17/02 06:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm just going to ask that my body be cremated... or buried in a field of corn. :wink:
I will become one with the Jiffypop. 


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Sclorch]
    #970005 - 10/17/02 06:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Does rotting human flesh make a good mushroom substrate?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #970242 - 10/17/02 08:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

swami, I saw the same documentary.  I happened to comment to someone exactly what you brought up.  the difference is the archaeoligists are doing it in the name of science. :crazy:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Sclorch]
    #970986 - 10/18/02 12:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Do not surround me with wreathes of flowers...nor place upon my body...the signs of a fetish...nor crescent, cross, phallus or sun.........But bury me in an apple orchard that I may touch your lips again...Bury me in an apple orchard....that I may touch your lips again...

Look at me when you glance at the spring apple flower...speak of me into a breeze blowing over your fingers...taste of me when your lips taste the froth of the apple meat...'

- The Fugs 'Burial Waltz'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #971460 - 10/18/02 04:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Markos... I thought you believed in souls. What's all this materialistic verse here?

Don't tell me that's just poetry.


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Anonymous

Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Sclorch]
    #971767 - 10/18/02 09:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm just going to ask that my body be cremated... or buried in a field of corn.
I will become one with the Jiffypop.


Sorry for the compliment but this is your best line ever!


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: ]
    #972353 - 10/18/02 03:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I thought it was pretty nice too.  :wink: 


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Offlineuno
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: postalboy]
    #974117 - 10/19/02 05:12 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In all of the mummy exhibits i've seen in the past few years; they have all had the canopic jars and various trinkets found in the tomb in close proximity. Perhaps curators trying to appease the ancient king gods? Maybe just to keep the exhibit intact, I don't know.


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- uno


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Sclorch]
    #976674 - 10/20/02 11:50 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm surprised that you see that verse as "materielisic".


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #977481 - 10/20/02 06:44 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm surprised that you see that verse as "materielistic".

Markos: Bury me in an apple orchard....that I may touch your lips again...

Sounds like materialism to me.
Unless there's some part of your "soul" that sticks to your body after death (which would be a new concept for me), I don't see how that line is NOT materialistic.

I'm open to reinterpretation though...


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Offlineshii-tan
unfolding.thoughtform
Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 15
Loc: beyond the neirica
Last seen: 15 years, 15 days
Re: Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist [Re: Swami]
    #981488 - 10/22/02 01:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

How much time must pass before it is socially acceptable to rob a grave? How many experts does it take to declare an act to be moral? Can an act be moral for some, but immoral for others?




ahh..
ive been asking myself the same question for years.


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chi fan le mey yo?


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