Home | Community | Message Board

Shroom Supply
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
OBEs = Brain Misfiring?
    #892605 - 09/19/02 06:54 AM (19 years, 13 days ago)

For you, Swami... hehehe
____________________________________________
Brain Misfiring May Explain Out-Of-Body Experience
By JOSEPH B. VERRENGIA The Associated Press
Published: Sep 19, 2002

Their stories are the stuff of creepy movies and daytime television: Hospital patients resuscitated on the operating table speak of being drawn toward a brilliant light, or looking down on their own bodies as doctors work feverishly to save their lives.
What induces these brief, haunting images?
A new study suggests these ``out-of-body'' and ``near- death'' experiences may be influenced by a portion of the brain misfiring under stress.
The paper, which describes one patient's visions while she was being evaluated for epilepsy, does not wrestle with issues of the soul.
Nor, researchers said, do the brain-mapping results entirely explain these reports.

Real Or Perception?
The researchers point to a processing center in the brain known as the angular gyrus. The angular gyrus is thought to play an important role in the way the brain analyzes sensory information to give us a perception of our own bodies. When it misfires, they speculate, the result can be visions of floating outside of ourselves.
The findings were published in today's issue of the journal Nature.
``We do not fully understand the neurological mechanism that causes OBEs,'' conceded the study's lead researcher, neurologist Olaf Blanke at the University Hospitals of Geneva and Lausanne in Switzerland.
Skeptics of OBEs said the experiment goes a long way toward providing a scientific explanation for what some believe is a paranormal phenomenon, even if the study is based on only one patient.
``Since all of our brains are wired in a similar manner, there is no reason to think that stimulation of this brain region in other patients will not corroborate the finding,'' said psychologist Michael Shermer, director of the Skeptic Society, which seeks to debunk alien abductions, ESP and other claims.
``It's another blow against those who believe that the mind and spirit are somehow separate from the brain,'' Shermer said. ``In reality, all experience is derived from the brain.''
Other researchers were less dismissive of the possibility that OBEs might be real. They described the experiment as modest but interesting.
Neurologist Bruce Greyson of the University of Virginia said the experiment does not necessarily prove all OBEs are illusions. He said it is possible that some OBEs occur in different ways than the scientists suspect.

Patient Recalls Floating
The Swiss researchers mapped the brain activity of a 43-year-old woman who had been experiencing seizures for 11 years. They implanted electrodes to stimulate portions of her brain's right temporal lobe.
The temporal lobe, which includes the angular gyrus structure, is associated with perception of sound, touch, memory and speech.
Blanke suspects the right angular gyrus integrates signals from the visual system, as well as information on touch and balance.
When electrical stimulation was applied, the patient reported seeing herself ``lying in bed, from above, but I only see my legs and lower trunk.'' She also described herself as floating near the ceiling.
Millions of people have reported OBEs, but relatively few have been clinically analyzed.
Late last year, the British medical journal Lancet published a Dutch study in which 344 cardiac patients were resuscitated from clinical death. About 12 percent reported seeing light at the end of a tunnel, or speaking to dead relatives.
Other researchers have suggested that OBEs occur as brain cells die from lack of oxygen, or when the brain releases pain-reducing chemicals called endorphins.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleClark
Bar RoomSuperman

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 179
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #892616 - 09/19/02 07:01 AM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Doh! I was just about to post something on this myself. Here's a link to a BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2266740.stm


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Clark]
    #892628 - 09/19/02 07:11 AM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Yeah well... "Bob" must've tipped me off first. :wink: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #892691 - 09/19/02 07:51 AM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Damn, I thought this was about Out of Beer Experiences... that's when my brain misfires.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #892962 - 09/19/02 10:29 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Read an article a few days ago (not sure if I can find the link) about a nurse at a major hospital who collected NDE reports and was even given the hospital's sanction to do so.

She believed that it was something amazing going on because the unconscious patients could seemingly describe the procedures done on them.

The nurse also put some cards with symbols on top of some tall cabinets in the OR or ER as many patients claimed to be floating on the ceiling looking down. Not one patient was able to indentify the symbols.

She followed with,"This doesn't prove that the experiences are not real."

No it doesn't, but neither does it make a stronger case for an actual OBE.


As usual from the believer's standpoint, you get the infamous win-win double-standard.

Scenario 1: Patient is able to read symbols - proof of a mystery.

Scenario 2: Patient is unable to read symbols - they were focused on something more important, so this negative result means nothing.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #892991 - 09/19/02 10:38 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

:smile: :smile: :smile:

also: (and excuse the length, but as long as we're posting articles...)

  Searching for God in the Machine 


By David C. Noelle
Free Inquiry
http://secularhumanism.org/

Summer 1998



David Noelle is a Postdoctoral Research Associate at the Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition, a joint project of Carnegie Mellon University, and the University of Pittsburgh

"I have certain, positive knowledge from my own direct experience. I can't put it any plainer than that. I have seen God face to face." With these words, the fictional theologian Palmer Joss defends his religious convictions in Carl Sagan's 1985 novel, Contact, Joss argues for the existence of his Christian god on the basis of personal revelation. And Joss is not alone. Many religionists rest their faith on the apparently solid foundation of personal religious experiences. Some receive visions. Others hear a comforting voice. Almost all experience a "sense of presence" or a feeling of "unity with the universe." Such episodes typically bring catharsis, joy, and calm. Importantly, these experiences are not reported solely by people suffering from brain damage or mental illness.

We may, quite rightly, reject such subjective experiences as lacking the necessary qualities of scientific evidence, such as reproducibility and openness to consensual validation or critique. The religionist may retort, however, that his belief may not be scientifically justifiable, but he knows it to be true, nonetheless, because of his private religious revelation.


To completely counter this argument for the existence of god(s), some alternative explanation must be given for the religious experience. Researchers in the fields of psychology and neuroscience have begun to uncover the biological mechanisms that might give rise to feelings of revelation in healthy adults. I will briefly review and critically assess some of these scientific findings, focusing specifically on three questions:

1. Circuity--What brain circuit are involved in religious experiences?
2. Modularity--Does the brain contain a special module dedicated to religious experience?
3. Innateness--Is there a "religion instinct" that is genetically "hard-wired" into our brains?


The God-Module Discovery

In October 1997, a presentation boldly titled "The Neural Basis of Religious Experience" was given at the annual conference of the Society for Neuroscience by neuropsychologist Dr.
V. S. Ramachandran and his colleagues. The Los Angeles Times reported that, "researchers at the UC San Diego brain and perception laboratory determined that the parts of the brain's temporal lobe--which the scientists quickly dubbed the 'God module'--may affect how intensely a person responds to religious beliefs." The story suggested that there were now a least partial scientific answers to all three of our questions concerning religious experience. The circuits underlying religious experience are in the temporal lobe of the brain; they form a distinct religion module that is substantially innate. Experimental results were "leading the scientists to suggest a portion of the brain is naturally attuned to ideas about a supreme being."

One common way to hunt for a module in the brain is to examine patients with various kinds of brain damage, hoping to find a localized form of damage that correlates with changes in the behaviors of interest. In this way, one may discover relationships between certain circuits in the brain and certain behavioral functions.

This was the strategy taken by the scientists in San Diego. They decided to focus on temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) patients, who exhibit inter-ictal behavior syndrome (IBS) These patients are prone to excessive activity in their temporal lobes, causing seizures during, which they report powerful religious experiences. Importantly, clinicians have previously reported that such TLE patients are also often fanatically religious, even during the long periods between seizures.

The question asked by Ramachandran and his colleagues was, Why do such seizures often lead to enhanced religiosity? They entertained three possibilities:

1. Strange sensory experiences that arise during seizure are rationally interpreted as signs of paranormal powers.
2. The strong and widespread electrical activity that defines seizures strengthens connections between temporal lobe sensory areas and the amygdala (a brain area associated with emotion). This causes patients to see "deep cosmic significance" in everything.
3. There is a system in the temporal lobe devoted to mediating emotional responses of a religious nature. Seizures can selectively strengthen the connections in this system.

The researchers dismissed the first option on the grounds that other kinds of neurological and psychiatric disorders result in strange hallucinations without causing the development of specifically religious propensities. To distinguish between the remaining two options, the scientists tested TLE-IBS patients to see if they had stronger emotional responses to everything in the world or only to religious stimuli. The degree of emotional response was measured through a physiological correlate, skin conductance response (SCR). By measuring small rapid changes in perspiration, the researchers hoped to show that TLE-IBS patients were particularly aroused by religion.

Indeed, that was exactly what was found. The TLE-IBS patients showed preferential emotional arousal when presented with religious words as opposed to words with sexual or violent connotations. Unlike the patients, age-matched healthy control subjects responded most strongly to the sexual words.

While these results seem to indicate that there is something distinctly religious about some of the circuitry in the temporal lobes, there are some reasons to be cautious about this conclusion. First, this study involved only three patients, and the preference for religious words was not equally robust in all three. Also, TLE-IBS patients sometimes exhibit changes in sexuality, becoming obsessed with the topic or bored by it. This symptom could have impacted the patients' responses to the sexual stimuli. In short, these results should be seen as preliminary.

In the end, this experiment suggests only that TLE-IBS patients do, indeed, display religion-specific symptoms. This, in turn, suggests that the brain's temporal lobe is involved in religious experience. The degree to which religion is a distinct or genetically determined part of our neural architecture has yet to be determined.

Tuning Into the Divine

In the film Raiders of the Lost Ark, a large metal religious artifact called the "Ark of the Covenant" is described as "a radio for speaking to God." while, to date, no one has produced such a radio that can tune into the divine, one neuroscientist has fabricated something similar. Dr. Michael Persinger of Laurentian University has devised a machine that generates a particular kind of magnetic field around the head producing "rnicro-seizures" in the temporal lobes of the brain. Healthy people who have experienced this induced brain activity have reported such things as a feelings of floating, deformations of the body, strong emotions, a "sensed presence," and specifically religious dreamlike hallucinations.

Persinger's experimental work arose after years of research into the neurological basis of religious experiences. Over this time, he has constructed and refined a rather detailed account of the neural processes that may underlay feelings of supernatural contact.(1) In brief, religious experiences are seen as the result of "temporal lobe transients" (TLT)--short-lived rate increases and instability in the firing patterns of neurons in the temporal lobe. These transients are seen as miniature versions of the seizures experienced by temporal lobe epileptics, and they are thought to occasionally arise in healthy people.

Persinger has speculated as to why such TLT events would produce the particular configuration of experiences reported as religious revelations. He sees a critical part of our "sense of self" as being maintained by systems in the left hemisphere temporal cortex. Most of the time, there is "matched" activity in the analogous places in the right hemisphere. However, when activity on the right gets out of sync with activity on the left, as during a TLT event, the left hemisphere interprets the mismatched activity as "another self" or a "sensed presence" the mind of God. In conjunction with this experience comes excessive stimulation of subcortical areas in the temporal lobe, particularly the amygdala (associated with emotion) and the hippocampus (associated with autobiographical memory). Excitation of these area results in the attribution of personal meaning to the experience. These powerful TLT events may naturally result from a number of factors, including increased sensitivity or lability of right temporal areas, loss of oxygen to the brain, and changes in blood sugar. These biological conditions may be caused by crisis situations, prolonged anxiety, near-death contingencies, high altitudes, starvation and fasting, diurnal shifts, and other physiological stressors.

A variety of correlational studies on healthy adults have been conducted by scientists in Persinger's lab. Assuming that people who are prone to TLT events will show subtle signs of a tendency towards hemispheric mismatch even when not experiencing a "micro-seizure," Persinger and his colleagues have examined the "brain waves" of a large number of healthy subjects and have compared these results with reports of religious experiences. They have found that a particular low-frequency component of one's electroencephalogram (EEG) trace, known as the theta rhythm, can partially predict the likelihood of having religious experiences.(2) Across healthy subjects, hemispheric mismatch in the theta component correlates with reports of previous "sensed presence" experiences. Furthermore, signs of specifically subcortical (limbic) mismatch in the temporal lobes are correlated with belief in paranormal phenomena, whereas indications of mismatch in the cortex are correlated with previous "sensed presence experiences.(3) In short, there is good correlational evidence that one's tendency to have religious experiences involves interhemispheric circuits in the temporal lobe.

While these results are interesting, Persinger's work involving the actual generation of religious experiences is much more striking. In a typical experiment the subject is isolated from sound and the eyes are covered. A helmet equipped with solenoids is strapped to the head. While reclining in this state of partial sensory deprivation, currents are induced in the subject's brain through the generation of patterned extremely low frequency milligauss magnetic fields in the solenoids. The subject is asked to describe any experiences aloud and this monologue is recorded.

By manipulating the magnetic field the experimenter has some control over the location and pattern of induced current in the brain. When subcortical (limbic) areas in the temporal lobes are targeted, subjects often report distortions in their body images, senses of forced motion, and strong emotional reactions. For example, Dr. Susan Blackmore entered Persinger's experimental chamber and reported a sense of swaying motion, a feeling of being yanked into an upright position, a sense that her leg had been stretched halfway to the ceiling, a period of intense anger, and flash of terror.(4) When temporal cortical areas are targeted for stimulations, subjects often report dreamlike visions (often with mystical or religious content) a "sense of presence," and strong emotions. Journalist Ian Cotton, for example, reported highly detailed visions of his childhood home, a dreamlike visit to the monks of a Tibetan temple, and an emotional "realization" that he too was, and always had been, a Tibetan monk.(5) Visions are particularly sensitive to suggestion, with the content being influenced by, say, the presence of a crucifix or the playing of distinctly Eastern music.

With these experimental results in mind, our three questions might be asked of both Persinger's theory and of his data. Persinger holds that subcortical temporal lobe systems contribute to paranormal experiences and paranormal belief. Cortical areas in the temporal lobes participate in the "sense of self" and, during periods of hen spheric mismatch, in the "sensed presence." His correlational and experimental data both support the notion that temporal circuits are central religious experience. With regard the question of modularity, Persinger's theory specifically denies the existence of a distinct "God module." In his view, the brain areas responsible for religious experience are exactly those areas that also mediate "sense of self," general emotional responses, and autobiographical memory. While his experimental work does not bear on this question, his correlational data support this distributed view. The likelihood of having religious experiences is systematically related to these other properties of cognition.

Persinger's position on the question of innateness is more ambiguous. In his writings, he frequently points out that religious experiences can have positive effects. He sees TLT events as a remedy for extreme anxiety.(6)


The God Experience has had survival value. It has allowed the human species to live through famine, pestilence, and untold horrors. When temporal lobe transients occurred, men and women who might have sunk into a schizophrenic stupor continued to build, plan, and hope.


While such "survival value" facilitate the incorporation of a feature into the genome, the utility of a behavior is not enough to ensure such fixation in DNA. For example, the making of bread is a skill with great survival value, but it is unlikely that this skill genetically encoded. Still, Persinger seems to lean towards a largely nativist account. Unfortunately, the data that has emerged from Persinger's lab does not really address the question of innateness.

Note that, even if a tendency towards experiencing TLT events was found to be influenced by one's genes, this would not necessarily mean that religious experiences have been favored by natural selection. For example, it might be the case that temporal lobe lability contributes to imagination and creativity, and this lability also accidentally results in religious experiences. In short, the question of a "religion instinct" is far from settled by Persinger's work.

Persinger's investigations have yet to fully confirm his views on the neurological bases of religious experience, but he has made tremendous progress. Unlike Ramachandran's work with TLE-IBS patients, Persinger has focused on healthy adults. He has shown that particular activity patterns in the temporal lobes of healthy brains can give rise to experiences that are very similar to the spontaneous religious experiences reported by many.


Answering Revelations

Modern science is beginning to understand the neurological mechanisms that give rise to the religious experiences of the believer. Given these results, the skeptic may present the believer with a simple question: How do you know that your religious experience is not a simple trick of your brain--the unfolding of a perfectly natural temporal lobe transient? How can you trust such an experience when, through science, we can convincingly mimic the face of God?

Notes

1 Michael A. Persinger. Neuropsychological Bases of God Beliefs (New York: Praeger, 1987).
2. C. Munro and Michael A. Persinger. "Relative Right Temporal Lobe Theta Activity Correlates with Vingiano's Hemispheric Quotient and the 'Sensed Presence."' Perceptual and Motor Skills, 75(1992): 89 903.
3. Michael A. Persinger, "Paranormal and Religious Beliefs May Be Mediated Differently
by Subcortical and Cortical Phenomenological Processes of the Temporal (Limbic) Lobes."
Perceptual and Motor Skills, 76(1993): 247 51.
4. Susan Blackmore. "Alien Abduction: The Inside Story." New Scientist, 19 November (1994): pp. 2 31.
5. Ian Cotton, "Dr. Persinger's God Machine." FREE INQUIRY, 17(1)(1996/97):
47 51.
6. Persinger, Neuropsychological Bases of God Reliefs, p. 138.


?1998 Council for Secular Humanism



--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Edited by Albino_Jesus (09/19/02 10:44 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #893067 - 09/19/02 11:01 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Brain Misfiring May Explain Out-Of-Body Experience


Did this article really "explain" anything at all? Is it just me, or... Couldn't the brain "misfiring" be a result of the OBE?

Or could it be that brain and the spirit are interwoven, and that perhaps when the brain signals the spirit in this way, an OBE is the result. It's the brain telling the spirit to do it's thing.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Swami]
    #893101 - 09/19/02 11:11 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Swami, you often say that enculturalisation plays a big role in determining people's explanations about what they think is happening in regards to "paranormal" experiences. Well, couldn't it be said that science also narrows people's minds in the same way? Take this quote for instance:

[``It's another blow against those who believe that the mind and spirit are somehow separate from the brain,'' Shermer said. ``In reality, all experience is derived from the brain.'']

How does Mr Shermer come to this conclusion? Doesn't sound like true objectivity to me. Isn't he just reading into this what he wants/has been conditioned to see?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #893129 - 09/19/02 11:21 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Good heavens! This place gets more erudite by the moment.

When science accepts the inclusion of teleology into its framework we will have better answers. Till then the blind lead the blind.

Cheers,


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: ]
    #893356 - 09/19/02 12:41 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

In reply to:

When science accepts the inclusion of teleology into its framework we will have better answers. Till then the blind lead the blind


so true... sadly...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,709
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 17 hours, 9 minutes
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #901134 - 09/23/02 07:54 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

OBE's are the result of brain misfiring? I've heard this before. I still don't think that that means that people aren't leaving their bodies. Check this out....

Perhaps the "brain misfiring" is simply the bodys justification for what is happening. In order for the body to let you do something like leave it, it has to try and be consistant with what is going on.

In other words, I still think the soul is always in control, and the body just falls in line.



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Wendell Austin and The Country Swings- LSD



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Learyfan]
    #901356 - 09/23/02 11:00 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

amen


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,709
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 17 hours, 9 minutes
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: In(di)go]
    #901446 - 09/23/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Glad you liked that Lozt Soul. Here's an analogy to go along with that.

Man: I'm in love with a girl

Scientist: No you're not really "in love". The feeling of being "in love" is just the result of your brain blah blah blah blah.


I just feel that the body changes in whichever way it needs to in order to do the souls bidding.



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Wendell Austin and The Country Swings- LSD



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Learyfan]
    #901512 - 09/23/02 12:42 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

i completely agree with you... it might be that the feeling of love is the result of certain chemicals, blah blah (all the scientific talk)... but why does the body react like this? the origin of any physical feeling is always (ALL-WAYS) found in the soul


--------------------


Edited by Lozt Soul (09/23/02 12:43 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Learyfan]
    #901517 - 09/23/02 12:44 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

what about the people who are actually dead for a period of time returning and going from athiest to spiritual?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: CleverName]
    #901533 - 09/23/02 12:51 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

they saw the light... quite literally, i think  :grin:


--------------------


Edited by Lozt Soul (09/23/02 12:52 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 32,709
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 17 hours, 9 minutes
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: In(di)go]
    #901538 - 09/23/02 12:54 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

LS: Not sure if you're with me just yet on this one, or maybe I didn't get what you said. What i'm saying is that the man is in love, because that's what his soul feels. Now, because the man is in love, the body has to change a little bit in order to represent this change :wink:

Clever Name: The "non-believers"(I hate to devide us again, but....) will tell you that the converted athiests just don't understand the science behind that event. ^^^You know my opinion on it though.


 


--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Wendell Austin and The Country Swings- LSD



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Learyfan]
    #901562 - 09/23/02 01:12 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

well sure i agree with you... i don't quite see where the difference between our views on the subject is... the body reacts this way because of the feeling of love to another beeing, or the feeling of beeing in love with another beeing... in order to represent the change to the mind, and to the world...  :smile:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #901593 - 09/23/02 01:26 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Brain Misfiring May Explain Out-Of-Body Experience

So where is the explanation?

So they stimulated some brain cells and a woman feels like floating? Wow. big deal.

If they stimulate the pleasure centers of her brain and she feels pleasure will the scientists conclude that the "brain misfiring" explains pleasure?

If they stimulate the visual cortex and she sees some lights, will they conclude that light is created by the brain?

These scientists aren't any closer to explaining the SOURCE of OBE's. They have merely pinpointed the area in the brain where OBE's manifest themselves.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901631 - 09/23/02 01:38 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

In reply to:

So where is the explanation?

So they stimulated some brain cells and a woman feels like floating? Wow. big deal.

If they stimulate the pleasure centers of her brain and she feels pleasure will the scientists conclude that the "brain misfiring" explains pleasure?

If they stimulate the visual cortex and she sees some lights, will they conclude that light is created by the brain?

These scientists aren't any closer to explaining the SOURCE of OBE's. They have merely pinpointed the area in the brain where OBE's manifest themselves.




humans cannot float unassisted.
humans CAN see light.
humans CAN feel pleasure.

if you see lights when none are present, this is hallucination.
if you feel sudden pleasure when nothing triggers it at all, this is also hallucination.
if you get a feeling of floating when you are firmly upon the ground, this is hallucination.

some will say "maybe the soul can see without the brain" or some other such rubbish. in which case I ask, why do we have eyes? if the soul can see unassisted, why do we even HAVE a visual cortex? why do we need a physical body and a brain which performs all the functions that the 'soul' can perform on its own, and apparently better, since there are things we can "see" with our souls that we can't see with our eyes. why did this useless lump of flesh evolve to be inhabited by a much superior being which can do everything it can do, plus more, and 100x better?


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #901658 - 09/23/02 01:46 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

in which case I ask, why do we have eyes? if the soul can see unassisted

AHAHA.

we have eyes, so we must not have souls...

good one..



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901667 - 09/23/02 01:49 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

In reply to:

AHAHA.

we have eyes, so we must not have souls...

good one..




you're not answering my question.
I see no reason that we would need brains and all the parts connected to them if the soul more than suffices


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #901679 - 09/23/02 01:54 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Are you claiming that "a physical body and a brain which performs all the functions that the 'soul' can perform on its own" exists?

I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you my friend.

Prove that the physical brain/body exists. (here we go again  :wink:)

I happen to believe that the brain/body/universe is a projection of The Soul. Not vice versa.


 


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901687 - 09/23/02 01:59 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

> Brain Misfiring May Explain Out-Of-Body Experience

Why is it "misfiring" instead of "firing"?

They don't know what is the "proper" way a brain should be firing. Maybe the brain is supposed to do what it does.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901739 - 09/23/02 02:28 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

In reply to:

Are you claiming that "a physical body and a brain which performs all the functions that the 'soul' can perform on its own" exists?

I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you my friend.




no. for one, I said that the "soul" apparently can perform all the functions of the brain, plus MORE. at least this is the typical idea surrounding the concept of the soul

secondly, it doesn't matter, because you can't prove the soul exists either.
but our existence in this world is apparent to us all, even if it itself is hallucination, because there is evidence that we can all see. this is the existence we inhabit, and the one we must work to understand.
we live and fuction in this existence, and there is NO evidence of any other existence. that which a few hold as tempoary private evidence can be explained by ... wow... functions of the brain. if what we see happening in the brain when people have "out of body experiences" and other religious experiences, can be INDUCED first by re-creating those brain functions, and we know that people who do experience "brain misfiring" i.e. seizures(which are disorganized, widespread, or localized synaptic 'mistakes') which are induced by certain normal, worldly, external stimuli, and result in a variety of things such as religious experiences, out of body experiences, extreme pain, unwilling flexing of muscles, etc, how is it to be claimed that those brain functions are a result of those experiences and not the cause ?


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #901951 - 09/23/02 04:45 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

How does the existence of a physical universe refute the existence of a soul?

if "the 'soul' apparently can perform all the functions of the brain", you're saying that the brain wouldn't be needed?


our existence in this world is apparent to us all, even if it itself is hallucination

You have too much faith in science to be able to study the workings of an "hallucination" and tell us how things are supposed to be.

and there is NO evidence of any other existence.

who said anything about other existences?

if what we see happening in the brain when people have "out of body experiences" and other religious experiences, can be INDUCED first by re-creating those brain functions

ANY experience can be INDUCED by re-creating brain functions.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901984 - 09/23/02 05:04 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

you didn't answer my question or address all of my post. oh well.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #902024 - 09/23/02 05:28 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

I don't know which question you're talking about so I'll do my best to answer all of your questions.

some will say "maybe the soul can see without the brain" or some other such rubbish. in which case I ask, why do we have eyes? if the soul can see unassisted, why do we even HAVE a visual cortex?

why did this useless lump of flesh evolve to be inhabited by a much superior being which can do everything it can do, plus more, and 100x better?


"why do we have eyes?" ummm.... to see.
"if the soul can see unassisted, why do we even HAVE a visual cortex?" where did I say the soul can see unsassisted?

"why did this useless lump of flesh evolve to be inhabited by a much superior being which can do everything it can do, plus more, and 100x better?" maybe our souls evolved along with this "useless lump of flesh".

if what we see happening in the brain when people have "out of body experiences" and other religious experiences, can be INDUCED first by re-creating those brain functions, and we know that people who do experience "brain misfiring" i.e. seizures(which are disorganized, widespread, or localized synaptic 'mistakes') which are induced by certain normal, worldly, external stimuli, and result in a variety of things such as religious experiences, out of body experiences, extreme pain, unwilling flexing of muscles, etc, how is it to be claimed that those brain functions are a result of those experiences and not the cause ?

How do they know that they had an OBE? Unless you've experienced a "real" OBE, you couldn't tell if brain stimulation causes the same effect.

I agree that experiences are caused by brain functions, but what causes the brain functions? are all of them caused by "certain normal, worldly, external stimuli"? I think there is a lot more to it than that.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #902034 - 09/23/02 05:33 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Sep 19, 2002, The Associated Press
____________________________________________
Sticking Electrodes in the Brain May Explain Foating Sensation
researchers say this disproves the existence of a soul


That SHOULD have been the headline.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #902055 - 09/23/02 05:48 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

i have something to say, but i get a feeling it will be worthless... and i don't like that... so im gonna make a poll right here  :grin:


Should I
Post my thoughts
Not post my thoughts



:tongue:


Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #902059 - 09/23/02 05:49 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Several points:

1. No one having an N.D.E. or consciously "astral traveling" has yet been able to detect and identify a real physical object out of sight of the experiencer. This would tend to indicate that the experience is entirely internal and not indicative of any separate causal/astral body leaving the physical body.

2. Most people near death do NOT have any unusual experience; in fact they experience nothing at all. Is this indicative of the VOID that awaits us?

3. Highly negative N.D.E.s are rarely reported in pop-parapsychology books, though there are some. These "voyagers" claim they would not wish the experience on their worst enemy. Why is the reporting unbalanced here? All is not rosy. Some cultures actually FEAR the N.D.E.

4. A ketamine trip can mimic much of the symptoms of an N.D.E. in a healthy person. Is God unable to detect a real dying person from a healthy person when presenting a life review?

5. From the Skeptic's Dictionary: "Neural noise" and "retino-cortical mapping" explain the common experience of passage down a tunnel from darkness into a bright light. According to Susan Blackmore, vision researcher Dr. Tomasz S. Troscianko of the University of Bristol speculated:

"If you started with very little neural noise and it gradually increased, the effect would be of a light at the centre getting larger and larger and hence closer and closer....the tunnel would appear to move as the noise levels increased and the central light got larger and larger....If the whole cortex became so noisy that all the cells were firing fast, the whole area would appear light" (Blackmore 1993, 85).


My conclusion: I fail to see how a brain-state can be indicative of what happens after a brain decomposes.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/23/02 10:27 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinepsilo25
The one stuck inthe middle ofthis hopelessmess.

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 244
Loc: over here
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Swami]
    #902184 - 09/23/02 06:59 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

In reply to:

1. No one having an N.D.E. or consciously "astral traveling" has yet been able to detect and identify a real physical object out of sight of the experiencer. This would tend to indicate that the experience is entirely internal and not indicative of any separate causal/astral body leaving the physical body.


Well, I don't know about that. Have you read "The Holographic Universe"? There are number of interesting OBE and NDE experiences in their. For instance, a woman dying in a hospital bed recalled floating up several stories outside the building and seeing a pair of shoes on the window ledge. The nurses went to check it out, and sure enough the shoes were there. Not an exact recount of the story by any means (it's been a while since I read the book), but I think you get the point. Of course, this is just a story, and could very well be a bunch of BS, but who knows? There are some things we will never fully understand in this lifetime...


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

www.drcnet.org
www.drugpolicyalliance.org
www.drugsense.org


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Swami]
    #902207 - 09/23/02 07:05 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

In reply to:

2. Most people near death do NOT have any unusual experience; in fact they experience nothing at all. Is this indicative of the VOID that awaits us?


Well maybe they can't remember their experience on the other side, much in the same way people don't remember all their dreams.

Why is this? I think because the ego is shrouded by a veil that automatically seeks to forget most things that it cannot rationalize or comprehend.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #902517 - 09/23/02 08:51 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

In reply to:

where did I say the soul can see unsassisted?







I didn't say you said that.
I'm discussing typical ideas about "soul"
that when people "leave their bodies" they can still "see"


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #902666 - 09/23/02 09:46 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

ok, 5 people have voted until now, and 5 people want me to post my thoughts, so i will... maybe in order to be flamed by albino_jesus, but to be honest it is not his opinion i care about regarding this subject...

In reply to:

if what we see happening in the brain when people have "out of body experiences" and other religious experiences, can be INDUCED first by re-creating those brain functions, and we know that people who do experience "brain misfiring" i.e. seizures(which are disorganized, widespread, or localized synaptic 'mistakes') which are induced by certain normal, worldly, external stimuli, and result in a variety of things such as religious experiences, out of body experiences, extreme pain, unwilling flexing of muscles, etc, how is it to be claimed that those brain functions are a result of those experiences and not the cause ?




of course the brain creates things... actually, lets look at it from a different point of view... the spiritual one (i know your rolling your eyes right now, but read on)...
ok... let me set some basic thoughts for this argument... we are here to experience what ever we want to experience... you and i agree on that, but not on the way the experience is created... ok... in order to experience something, anything, we have to create a setting... physical, emotional, mental, material... we agree on this, right? how do we create this setting... through a divine trinity... thought, word, and deed... first you think about a setting, then you say you are going to create that setting, and then you act on your words, and your thoughts... ok... until this point it seems you have won the argument, because thought comes first... but you and i differ on our definitions of a thought... what you think would be the thought in this trinity of creation, is the word for me... because BEFORE what YOU might call the thought, there is something else, what i like to call "sponsoring thought"... it is the place where you imagine a situation, you almost seem to feel it, because you know it is already there, it has already happened (everything happens RIGHT NOW, time is only relative, but that is another subject altogether)... what im trying to get at, is that the imagination of the situation, of the experience, does not come from the brain, but from the soul... then that wish, before you actually speak it out, is transformed into WORD by your brain... so thinking of the words is the same as speaking the words, therefore what you call thought becomes word... you get my meaning? i know your are going to say that the imagination, the wish for the experience comes from the brain, too... but the brain merely is the processor... is the computer of everything... what would be a processor chip of a computer if the user gave it nothing to process? that is right... it would be dead... so would be your brain if there was not a soul who gives a "sponsoring thought" and is there to experience the results of the creation...
there are 2 reasons you have not experienced a soul...
1. is that your brain may be corrupting sponsoring thoughts, and disturbing input, in order for you to experience nothing spiritual, only rational...
2. your soul gives a sponsoring thought for the experience you have (no god), for whatever reason it chooses...

i think it is the first, but that is just my humble opinion... now im not telling you this is bad... we have the free will to experience whatever we want... the difference is, once you choose to believe in a soul that sponsors thoughts, you will experience that soul, and the beauty of it will bring you to tears... it is the divine dichotomy, you experience what you wish to experience... and that, my friend is awesome... divine...

i hope this made any sense to someone... it did to me...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: In(di)go]
    #902706 - 09/23/02 10:02 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Hell yeah bro I'm feeling ya... :smile: Conversations With God is a good book, I'm currently reading it.

there are 2 reasons you have not experienced a soul...
1. is that your brain may be corrupting sponsoring thoughts, and disturbing input, in order for you to experience nothing spiritual, only rational...


Maybe the processer (the brain) does not think an outside force (the soul) is controlling it, just in the same way a computer doesn't know (yet, at least) that we are the ones giving the commands!  :crazy:

The brain can't handle the thought of an outside force controlling it's actions, it thinks that IT is in control. But in reality, I think it is just the "control panel" for our souls to sit behind... 


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,157
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Adamist]
    #902727 - 09/23/02 10:09 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

yes! i like that... i couldnt have put it better myself...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: In(di)go]
    #903369 - 09/24/02 02:04 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Good points Lozt Soul.

Let me add my two cents:

In the experiment, the woman's brain was directly stimulated with electrodes. Did this happen spontaneously? No. There was a will involved, or as you say "a divine trinity... thought, word, and deed". So if an out of body experience is caused by the brain "misfiring", what causes the brain to misfire?
It's not a simple case of cause and effect like Albino Jesus claims. What causes the cause? There are a series of factors in creating an OBE. You can't say that "we made her have an OBE by sticking electrodes in her brain therefore OBE's are not real". All this proves is that direct stimulation of the brain causes certain sensations. It doesn't disprove anything.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #903378 - 09/24/02 02:06 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Now you're not answering MY questions:

How does the existence of a physical universe refute the existence of a soul?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAlbino_Jesus
Clearly Retarded
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/14/02
Posts: 1,698
Loc: Construction ahead...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: In(di)go]
    #904178 - 09/24/02 11:33 AM (19 years, 7 days ago)

In reply to:

, once you choose to believe in a soul that sponsors thoughts, you will experience that soul, and the beauty of it will bring you to tears...




i.e. the placebo effect?
humans are notoriously suggestible


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* This Is Your Brain on God - Michael Persinger has a vision - the Almighty isn't dead, he's an energy Divinorum 1,603 3 09/23/09 10:48 PM
by explosiveoxygen
* brain chems (DMT/psychedelics) vs spritual vessels DigitalDuality 3,781 13 07/13/04 08:44 AM
by JacquesCousteau
* The human brain & the universe are the same? Liquid_Dimension 1,143 14 06/19/04 08:48 AM
by redgreenvines
* spiritual beings, otherworldly presences.. and your encounters with them
( 1 2 all )
ShroomismM
3,796 38 10/02/05 04:55 AM
by Silversoul
* ALS OB
( 1 2 all )
David_Scape 1,902 36 01/22/03 07:39 PM
by Anonymous
* 10% of brain usage myth
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 5,690 57 10/09/01 10:51 AM
by Crobih
* eyeball : brain :: mind : universe
( 1 2 all )
Zekebomb 1,686 22 01/12/05 08:33 PM
by Zekebomb
* Salvia and the female presence... Adamist 3,395 11 07/15/03 07:58 PM
by lucid

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
5,120 topic views. 2 members, 1 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.071 seconds spending 0.034 seconds on 21 queries.