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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #901658 - 09/23/02 01:46 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

in which case I ask, why do we have eyes? if the soul can see unassisted

AHAHA.

we have eyes, so we must not have souls...

good one..



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901667 - 09/23/02 01:49 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

In reply to:

AHAHA.

we have eyes, so we must not have souls...

good one..




you're not answering my question.
I see no reason that we would need brains and all the parts connected to them if the soul more than suffices


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #901679 - 09/23/02 01:54 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

Are you claiming that "a physical body and a brain which performs all the functions that the 'soul' can perform on its own" exists?

I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you my friend.

Prove that the physical brain/body exists. (here we go again  :wink:)

I happen to believe that the brain/body/universe is a projection of The Soul. Not vice versa.


 


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Offlinepattern
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901687 - 09/23/02 01:59 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

> Brain Misfiring May Explain Out-Of-Body Experience

Why is it "misfiring" instead of "firing"?

They don't know what is the "proper" way a brain should be firing. Maybe the brain is supposed to do what it does.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901739 - 09/23/02 02:28 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

In reply to:

Are you claiming that "a physical body and a brain which performs all the functions that the 'soul' can perform on its own" exists?

I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you my friend.




no. for one, I said that the "soul" apparently can perform all the functions of the brain, plus MORE. at least this is the typical idea surrounding the concept of the soul

secondly, it doesn't matter, because you can't prove the soul exists either.
but our existence in this world is apparent to us all, even if it itself is hallucination, because there is evidence that we can all see. this is the existence we inhabit, and the one we must work to understand.
we live and fuction in this existence, and there is NO evidence of any other existence. that which a few hold as tempoary private evidence can be explained by ... wow... functions of the brain. if what we see happening in the brain when people have "out of body experiences" and other religious experiences, can be INDUCED first by re-creating those brain functions, and we know that people who do experience "brain misfiring" i.e. seizures(which are disorganized, widespread, or localized synaptic 'mistakes') which are induced by certain normal, worldly, external stimuli, and result in a variety of things such as religious experiences, out of body experiences, extreme pain, unwilling flexing of muscles, etc, how is it to be claimed that those brain functions are a result of those experiences and not the cause ?


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #901951 - 09/23/02 04:45 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

How does the existence of a physical universe refute the existence of a soul?

if "the 'soul' apparently can perform all the functions of the brain", you're saying that the brain wouldn't be needed?


our existence in this world is apparent to us all, even if it itself is hallucination

You have too much faith in science to be able to study the workings of an "hallucination" and tell us how things are supposed to be.

and there is NO evidence of any other existence.

who said anything about other existences?

if what we see happening in the brain when people have "out of body experiences" and other religious experiences, can be INDUCED first by re-creating those brain functions

ANY experience can be INDUCED by re-creating brain functions.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #901984 - 09/23/02 05:04 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

you didn't answer my question or address all of my post. oh well.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #902024 - 09/23/02 05:28 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

I don't know which question you're talking about so I'll do my best to answer all of your questions.

some will say "maybe the soul can see without the brain" or some other such rubbish. in which case I ask, why do we have eyes? if the soul can see unassisted, why do we even HAVE a visual cortex?

why did this useless lump of flesh evolve to be inhabited by a much superior being which can do everything it can do, plus more, and 100x better?


"why do we have eyes?" ummm.... to see.
"if the soul can see unassisted, why do we even HAVE a visual cortex?" where did I say the soul can see unsassisted?

"why did this useless lump of flesh evolve to be inhabited by a much superior being which can do everything it can do, plus more, and 100x better?" maybe our souls evolved along with this "useless lump of flesh".

if what we see happening in the brain when people have "out of body experiences" and other religious experiences, can be INDUCED first by re-creating those brain functions, and we know that people who do experience "brain misfiring" i.e. seizures(which are disorganized, widespread, or localized synaptic 'mistakes') which are induced by certain normal, worldly, external stimuli, and result in a variety of things such as religious experiences, out of body experiences, extreme pain, unwilling flexing of muscles, etc, how is it to be claimed that those brain functions are a result of those experiences and not the cause ?

How do they know that they had an OBE? Unless you've experienced a "real" OBE, you couldn't tell if brain stimulation causes the same effect.

I agree that experiences are caused by brain functions, but what causes the brain functions? are all of them caused by "certain normal, worldly, external stimuli"? I think there is a lot more to it than that.



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Sclorch]
    #902034 - 09/23/02 05:33 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

Sep 19, 2002, The Associated Press
____________________________________________
Sticking Electrodes in the Brain May Explain Foating Sensation
researchers say this disproves the existence of a soul


That SHOULD have been the headline.



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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #902055 - 09/23/02 05:48 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

i have something to say, but i get a feeling it will be worthless... and i don't like that... so im gonna make a poll right here  :grin:


Should I
Post my thoughts
Not post my thoughts



:tongue:


Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #902059 - 09/23/02 05:49 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

Several points:

1. No one having an N.D.E. or consciously "astral traveling" has yet been able to detect and identify a real physical object out of sight of the experiencer. This would tend to indicate that the experience is entirely internal and not indicative of any separate causal/astral body leaving the physical body.

2. Most people near death do NOT have any unusual experience; in fact they experience nothing at all. Is this indicative of the VOID that awaits us?

3. Highly negative N.D.E.s are rarely reported in pop-parapsychology books, though there are some. These "voyagers" claim they would not wish the experience on their worst enemy. Why is the reporting unbalanced here? All is not rosy. Some cultures actually FEAR the N.D.E.

4. A ketamine trip can mimic much of the symptoms of an N.D.E. in a healthy person. Is God unable to detect a real dying person from a healthy person when presenting a life review?

5. From the Skeptic's Dictionary: "Neural noise" and "retino-cortical mapping" explain the common experience of passage down a tunnel from darkness into a bright light. According to Susan Blackmore, vision researcher Dr. Tomasz S. Troscianko of the University of Bristol speculated:

"If you started with very little neural noise and it gradually increased, the effect would be of a light at the centre getting larger and larger and hence closer and closer....the tunnel would appear to move as the noise levels increased and the central light got larger and larger....If the whole cortex became so noisy that all the cells were firing fast, the whole area would appear light" (Blackmore 1993, 85).


My conclusion: I fail to see how a brain-state can be indicative of what happens after a brain decomposes.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/23/02 10:27 PM)


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Offlinepsilo25
The one stuck inthe middle ofthis hopelessmess.

Registered: 03/03/02
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Swami]
    #902184 - 09/23/02 06:59 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

In reply to:

1. No one having an N.D.E. or consciously "astral traveling" has yet been able to detect and identify a real physical object out of sight of the experiencer. This would tend to indicate that the experience is entirely internal and not indicative of any separate causal/astral body leaving the physical body.


Well, I don't know about that. Have you read "The Holographic Universe"? There are number of interesting OBE and NDE experiences in their. For instance, a woman dying in a hospital bed recalled floating up several stories outside the building and seeing a pair of shoes on the window ledge. The nurses went to check it out, and sure enough the shoes were there. Not an exact recount of the story by any means (it's been a while since I read the book), but I think you get the point. Of course, this is just a story, and could very well be a bunch of BS, but who knows? There are some things we will never fully understand in this lifetime...


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Swami]
    #902207 - 09/23/02 07:05 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

In reply to:

2. Most people near death do NOT have any unusual experience; in fact they experience nothing at all. Is this indicative of the VOID that awaits us?


Well maybe they can't remember their experience on the other side, much in the same way people don't remember all their dreams.

Why is this? I think because the ego is shrouded by a veil that automatically seeks to forget most things that it cannot rationalize or comprehend.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #902517 - 09/23/02 08:51 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

In reply to:

where did I say the soul can see unsassisted?







I didn't say you said that.
I'm discussing typical ideas about "soul"
that when people "leave their bodies" they can still "see"


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #902666 - 09/23/02 09:46 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

ok, 5 people have voted until now, and 5 people want me to post my thoughts, so i will... maybe in order to be flamed by albino_jesus, but to be honest it is not his opinion i care about regarding this subject...

In reply to:

if what we see happening in the brain when people have "out of body experiences" and other religious experiences, can be INDUCED first by re-creating those brain functions, and we know that people who do experience "brain misfiring" i.e. seizures(which are disorganized, widespread, or localized synaptic 'mistakes') which are induced by certain normal, worldly, external stimuli, and result in a variety of things such as religious experiences, out of body experiences, extreme pain, unwilling flexing of muscles, etc, how is it to be claimed that those brain functions are a result of those experiences and not the cause ?




of course the brain creates things... actually, lets look at it from a different point of view... the spiritual one (i know your rolling your eyes right now, but read on)...
ok... let me set some basic thoughts for this argument... we are here to experience what ever we want to experience... you and i agree on that, but not on the way the experience is created... ok... in order to experience something, anything, we have to create a setting... physical, emotional, mental, material... we agree on this, right? how do we create this setting... through a divine trinity... thought, word, and deed... first you think about a setting, then you say you are going to create that setting, and then you act on your words, and your thoughts... ok... until this point it seems you have won the argument, because thought comes first... but you and i differ on our definitions of a thought... what you think would be the thought in this trinity of creation, is the word for me... because BEFORE what YOU might call the thought, there is something else, what i like to call "sponsoring thought"... it is the place where you imagine a situation, you almost seem to feel it, because you know it is already there, it has already happened (everything happens RIGHT NOW, time is only relative, but that is another subject altogether)... what im trying to get at, is that the imagination of the situation, of the experience, does not come from the brain, but from the soul... then that wish, before you actually speak it out, is transformed into WORD by your brain... so thinking of the words is the same as speaking the words, therefore what you call thought becomes word... you get my meaning? i know your are going to say that the imagination, the wish for the experience comes from the brain, too... but the brain merely is the processor... is the computer of everything... what would be a processor chip of a computer if the user gave it nothing to process? that is right... it would be dead... so would be your brain if there was not a soul who gives a "sponsoring thought" and is there to experience the results of the creation...
there are 2 reasons you have not experienced a soul...
1. is that your brain may be corrupting sponsoring thoughts, and disturbing input, in order for you to experience nothing spiritual, only rational...
2. your soul gives a sponsoring thought for the experience you have (no god), for whatever reason it chooses...

i think it is the first, but that is just my humble opinion... now im not telling you this is bad... we have the free will to experience whatever we want... the difference is, once you choose to believe in a soul that sponsors thoughts, you will experience that soul, and the beauty of it will bring you to tears... it is the divine dichotomy, you experience what you wish to experience... and that, my friend is awesome... divine...

i hope this made any sense to someone... it did to me...


--------------------


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: In(di)go]
    #902706 - 09/23/02 10:02 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

Hell yeah bro I'm feeling ya... :smile: Conversations With God is a good book, I'm currently reading it.

there are 2 reasons you have not experienced a soul...
1. is that your brain may be corrupting sponsoring thoughts, and disturbing input, in order for you to experience nothing spiritual, only rational...


Maybe the processer (the brain) does not think an outside force (the soul) is controlling it, just in the same way a computer doesn't know (yet, at least) that we are the ones giving the commands!  :crazy:

The brain can't handle the thought of an outside force controlling it's actions, it thinks that IT is in control. But in reality, I think it is just the "control panel" for our souls to sit behind... 


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Adamist]
    #902727 - 09/23/02 10:09 PM (19 years, 5 days ago)

yes! i like that... i couldnt have put it better myself...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: In(di)go]
    #903369 - 09/24/02 02:04 AM (19 years, 5 days ago)

Good points Lozt Soul.

Let me add my two cents:

In the experiment, the woman's brain was directly stimulated with electrodes. Did this happen spontaneously? No. There was a will involved, or as you say "a divine trinity... thought, word, and deed". So if an out of body experience is caused by the brain "misfiring", what causes the brain to misfire?
It's not a simple case of cause and effect like Albino Jesus claims. What causes the cause? There are a series of factors in creating an OBE. You can't say that "we made her have an OBE by sticking electrodes in her brain therefore OBE's are not real". All this proves is that direct stimulation of the brain causes certain sensations. It doesn't disprove anything.



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Posts: 3,040
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #903378 - 09/24/02 02:06 AM (19 years, 5 days ago)

Now you're not answering MY questions:

How does the existence of a physical universe refute the existence of a soul?


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: OBEs = Brain Misfiring? [Re: In(di)go]
    #904178 - 09/24/02 11:33 AM (19 years, 5 days ago)

In reply to:

, once you choose to believe in a soul that sponsors thoughts, you will experience that soul, and the beauty of it will bring you to tears...




i.e. the placebo effect?
humans are notoriously suggestible


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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