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OfflineDavid_Scape
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ALS OB
    #1226982 - 01/17/03 03:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Philosophy, Spirituality and Science. Are all these fictionisms?

ALS OB: The philosophy in which knowledge is based not on objective truth but on "assuming as true certain unverifiable fictional constructions that are useful as conceptual tools for the formation of intellectual systems. The philosophy is sometimes called FICTIONISM."

Your take, laides and gentlemen?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Edited by David_Scape (01/17/03 06:24 PM)


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1227626 - 01/17/03 09:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know...
Maybe spirituality and philosophy, but I don't think science would fall under the category of "fictionism."  Science is concrete.  Real.  Solid.  Science deals with facts and truths.

But maybe I'm just biased b/c I'm a scientist  :ooo:

-RebelSteve 


--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: ALS OB [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1227696 - 01/17/03 09:43 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Not Philosophy either, it deals with facts and truths as well.

[wonders where this guy comes up with all this stuff]

Peace


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OfflineNomad
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Re: ALS OB [Re: ]
    #1227934 - 01/18/03 02:11 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

And neither spirituality, being based on pure, unconceptualized truth and the mere facts of experience.


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Anonymous

Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228137 - 01/18/03 06:34 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Indeed.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: ALS OB [Re: ]
    #1228165 - 01/18/03 06:52 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Hope we answered David's question. The answer is threefold: No, no and no.  :wink: 


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1228167 - 01/18/03 06:55 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Hold on, hold on. I'm definitely not a scientist(Rebelsteve), a philosopher(Mr.mushrooms), or real big on spirituallity(Nomad?). I am willing to throw this in the dustbin, But I dont think this is entirely unreasonable, hear me out:

First of all, let me point out that im not trying to dispute the usefullness of the ideas that these fields use to decribe or validate phenomina. And do not think that fictionism means that the concepts delt with in these fields are not True or are'nt dealing with 'Facts'. What I think 'ficitonism' means is that these concepts we are useing to describe phenomina or the ideas we use to come to a particular conclusion about somthing(im Not speaking of logic), are'nt OBJECTIVE truths in themselves, but only REPRESENT the object/idea/concept as we understand them.

Subjective truths about oneself are probably the only things I can think of that escape this.

(edit: just made the first sentence in the second paragraph clearer.)


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Edited by David_Scape (01/18/03 09:47 AM)


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OfflineNomad
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Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1228176 - 01/18/03 07:00 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What I think 'ficitonism' means is that these concepts we are useing to describe phenomina or the ideas we use to come to a particular conclusion about somthing(im Not speaking of logic), are'nt OBJECTIVE truths in themselves, but only REPRESENT the object/idea/concept as we understand them.

The problem, as I see it, comes down to this: According to your argument, fictionism would itself be a fiction, and therefore not valid. It's a vicious circle. Break free.



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Offlinesirreal
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Re: ALS OB [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1228178 - 01/18/03 07:01 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Is not all of it based on percieved facts and truths?If not then we should all come to the same conclusions.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228186 - 01/18/03 07:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i dunno.Maybe your right. But I think fictionism would be more of a subjective truth or observation. A realisation that ones perceptions are only that.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineNomad
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Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1228199 - 01/18/03 07:13 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

But I think fictionism would be more of a subjective truth or observation. A realisation that ones perceptions are only that.

Yes, I can very much relate to that and think it is an important point. But this also means that fictionism is not more true or false than science, philosophy, or spirituality.


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Anonymous

Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1228203 - 01/18/03 07:15 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

A good anwer to yoru conundrum is found in a thread I created called "Truth?" Search for it but do not reply in it.

I use it as a reference point for people like you who have thought about these things.

The difference is between public and private, explained in detail in that thread.

Continue.


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228209 - 01/18/03 07:18 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with David Scape on this exept of calling it fictionism even if there's no objective, real proof of any of the BS we're selling at times and in some cases if read and understood correctly makes us look like tiranic, exentric nutcases that are plotting to take over the world.


Master Xian


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OfflineNomad
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Voodoo Doll]
    #1228234 - 01/18/03 07:28 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

makes us look like tiranic, exentric nutcases that are plotting to take over the world.

Welcome to S&P&S.  :laugh:
 


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228236 - 01/18/03 07:29 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

:grin: lol


Edited by Voodoo Doll (01/18/03 07:30 AM)


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228257 - 01/18/03 07:41 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

"But this also means that fictionism is not more true or false than science, philosophy, or spirituality."

Just to be sure: the above sentence is trying to prove your previous point that fictionism is invalid because you think the concept in itself is self-limiting, correct?

That could be true, but I would have to accept that fictionism symbolizes something in my self that I am not objectively aware of. I do not know if this is true. The self that i experience, is it my objective self or is it just a representation of myself?

If you need me to make this clearer please tell me(I realise that sometimes i over analyse my own posts and change them to the point where they can only be read by me.).



--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Edited by David_Scape (01/18/03 07:44 AM)


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: ALS OB [Re: ]
    #1228260 - 01/18/03 07:43 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I will read it! if i have any questions i'll just post it in this thread.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
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Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1228266 - 01/18/03 07:45 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Fictional means that something isn't real. It's wrong cause it is.


Master Xian


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OfflineNomad
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Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1228305 - 01/18/03 08:22 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Just to be sure: the above sentence is trying to prove your previous point that fictionism is invalid because you think the concept in itself is self-limiting, correct?

It probably comes down to the definition of truth. I remember the thread titled "Truth?"... it's a long one, but very cool. Mr Mushrooms, if I remember it correctly, argued that truth is determined by consensus. Contrary to that, I would argue that truth is what works. So we do what humans have to do sometimes, we disagree.

Using my pragmatic definition of truth, it would follow that fictionism is invalid as an argument against, say, science, because science works and still does when you subscribe to fictionism. But the insight that the world is created by your mind could be useful, and therefore valid, or true, in other circumstances. For example, I remember one day where I was mushroom hunting in a forest, and I came upon that little patch of grass, sunlight spreading everywhere, surrounded by trees. I was walking around somewhat distracted, and kept wondering, because I could not see any mushrooms growing on that perfect patch of space-time. Then I suddenly discovered one small brownish mushroom. I kneeled down, and as I stood up again and looked around, this mushroom was everywhere. There were literally hundreds of them, scattered all over the place. Mind blowing. My brain was simply unaware of that unusual pattern, so I could not see it until I had obtained an example of what it looks like.

So, being aware that your world is created by your mind is useful, because, then, you can change the world by changing your mind. But fictionism cannot disprove science, philosophy, or spirituality.

Don't know, maybe we are just arguing over definitions?


Edited by Nomad (01/18/03 08:29 AM)


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228322 - 01/18/03 08:33 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So, being aware that your world is created by your mind is useful, because, then, you can change the world by changing your mind. But fictionism cannot disprove science, philosophy, or spirituality.





I like that idea!But it seems to me that it is true only to a certain point.Serious mental problems can come from taking this to its extreme.I knew a manic schizophrenic who lived in a world created by his own mind. Even back then it seemed to me that he was trying to change the world he lived in by changing his mind. There are certain realities one must face.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (01/18/03 08:35 AM)


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