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David_Scape
Anti Genius


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ALS OB
#1226982 - 01/17/03 01:49 PM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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Philosophy, Spirituality and Science. Are all these fictionisms?
ALS OB: The philosophy in which knowledge is based not on objective truth but on "assuming as true certain unverifiable fictional constructions that are useful as conceptual tools for the formation of intellectual systems. The philosophy is sometimes called FICTIONISM."
Your take, laides and gentlemen?
Edited by David_Scape (01/17/03 04:24 PM)
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RebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist


Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
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I don't know... Maybe spirituality and philosophy, but I don't think science would fall under the category of "fictionism." Science is concrete. Real. Solid. Science deals with facts and truths.
But maybe I'm just biased b/c I'm a scientist 
-RebelSteve
-------------------- Namaste.
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Anonymous
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Not Philosophy either, it deals with facts and truths as well.
[wonders where this guy comes up with all this stuff]
Peace
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Nomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
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Re: ALS OB [Re: ]
#1227934 - 01/18/03 12:11 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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And neither spirituality, being based on pure, unconceptualized truth and the mere facts of experience.
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Anonymous
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228137 - 01/18/03 04:34 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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Indeed.
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Nomad
Mad Robot

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Re: ALS OB [Re: ]
#1228165 - 01/18/03 04:52 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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Hope we answered David's question. The answer is threefold: No, no and no.
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


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Hold on, hold on. I'm definitely not a scientist(Rebelsteve), a philosopher(Mr.mushrooms), or real big on spirituallity(Nomad?). I am willing to throw this in the dustbin, But I dont think this is entirely unreasonable, hear me out:
First of all, let me point out that im not trying to dispute the usefullness of the ideas that these fields use to decribe or validate phenomina. And do not think that fictionism means that the concepts delt with in these fields are not True or are'nt dealing with 'Facts'. What I think 'ficitonism' means is that these concepts we are useing to describe phenomina or the ideas we use to come to a particular conclusion about somthing(im Not speaking of logic), are'nt OBJECTIVE truths in themselves, but only REPRESENT the object/idea/concept as we understand them.
Subjective truths about oneself are probably the only things I can think of that escape this.
(edit: just made the first sentence in the second paragraph clearer.)
Edited by David_Scape (01/18/03 07:47 AM)
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Nomad
Mad Robot

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What I think 'ficitonism' means is that these concepts we are useing to describe phenomina or the ideas we use to come to a particular conclusion about somthing(im Not speaking of logic), are'nt OBJECTIVE truths in themselves, but only REPRESENT the object/idea/concept as we understand them.
The problem, as I see it, comes down to this: According to your argument, fictionism would itself be a fiction, and therefore not valid. It's a vicious circle. Break free.
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sirreal
devoid
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Is not all of it based on percieved facts and truths?If not then we should all come to the same conclusions.
-------------------- I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------
I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228186 - 01/18/03 05:07 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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i dunno.Maybe your right. But I think fictionism would be more of a subjective truth or observation. A realisation that ones perceptions are only that.
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Nomad
Mad Robot

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But I think fictionism would be more of a subjective truth or observation. A realisation that ones perceptions are only that.
Yes, I can very much relate to that and think it is an important point. But this also means that fictionism is not more true or false than science, philosophy, or spirituality.
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Anonymous
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A good anwer to yoru conundrum is found in a thread I created called "Truth?" Search for it but do not reply in it.
I use it as a reference point for people like you who have thought about these things.
The difference is between public and private, explained in detail in that thread.
Continue.
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Voodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228209 - 01/18/03 05:18 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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I agree with David Scape on this exept of calling it fictionism even if there's no objective, real proof of any of the BS we're selling at times and in some cases if read and understood correctly makes us look like tiranic, exentric nutcases that are plotting to take over the world.
Master Xian
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Nomad
Mad Robot

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makes us look like tiranic, exentric nutcases that are plotting to take over the world.
Welcome to S&P&S. 
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Voodoo Doll
curses for allof you

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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228236 - 01/18/03 05:29 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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lol
Edited by Voodoo Doll (01/18/03 05:30 AM)
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228257 - 01/18/03 05:41 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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"But this also means that fictionism is not more true or false than science, philosophy, or spirituality."
Just to be sure: the above sentence is trying to prove your previous point that fictionism is invalid because you think the concept in itself is self-limiting, correct?
That could be true, but I would have to accept that fictionism symbolizes something in my self that I am not objectively aware of. I do not know if this is true. The self that i experience, is it my objective self or is it just a representation of myself?
If you need me to make this clearer please tell me(I realise that sometimes i over analyse my own posts and change them to the point where they can only be read by me.).
Edited by David_Scape (01/18/03 05:44 AM)
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


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Re: ALS OB [Re: ]
#1228260 - 01/18/03 05:43 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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I will read it! if i have any questions i'll just post it in this thread.
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Voodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/09/03
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Fictional means that something isn't real. It's wrong cause it is.
Master Xian
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Nomad
Mad Robot

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Just to be sure: the above sentence is trying to prove your previous point that fictionism is invalid because you think the concept in itself is self-limiting, correct?
It probably comes down to the definition of truth. I remember the thread titled "Truth?"... it's a long one, but very cool. Mr Mushrooms, if I remember it correctly, argued that truth is determined by consensus. Contrary to that, I would argue that truth is what works. So we do what humans have to do sometimes, we disagree.
Using my pragmatic definition of truth, it would follow that fictionism is invalid as an argument against, say, science, because science works and still does when you subscribe to fictionism. But the insight that the world is created by your mind could be useful, and therefore valid, or true, in other circumstances. For example, I remember one day where I was mushroom hunting in a forest, and I came upon that little patch of grass, sunlight spreading everywhere, surrounded by trees. I was walking around somewhat distracted, and kept wondering, because I could not see any mushrooms growing on that perfect patch of space-time. Then I suddenly discovered one small brownish mushroom. I kneeled down, and as I stood up again and looked around, this mushroom was everywhere. There were literally hundreds of them, scattered all over the place. Mind blowing. My brain was simply unaware of that unusual pattern, so I could not see it until I had obtained an example of what it looks like.
So, being aware that your world is created by your mind is useful, because, then, you can change the world by changing your mind. But fictionism cannot disprove science, philosophy, or spirituality.
Don't know, maybe we are just arguing over definitions?
Edited by Nomad (01/18/03 06:29 AM)
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sirreal
devoid
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228322 - 01/18/03 06:33 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
So, being aware that your world is created by your mind is useful, because, then, you can change the world by changing your mind. But fictionism cannot disprove science, philosophy, or spirituality.
I like that idea!But it seems to me that it is true only to a certain point.Serious mental problems can come from taking this to its extreme.I knew a manic schizophrenic who lived in a world created by his own mind. Even back then it seemed to me that he was trying to change the world he lived in by changing his mind. There are certain realities one must face.
-------------------- I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------
I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
Edited by sirreal (01/18/03 06:35 AM)
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Voodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228323 - 01/18/03 06:34 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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If my mind created the planet why would I change it. Don't you think it's good? I'm a martyr, a demon, a drug using cult fugure from the 70's, a gay loving, tantra practisioner that likes anarchy in all his doings and thought...and more.
Edited by Voodoo Doll (01/18/03 06:37 AM)
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Nomad
Mad Robot

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If my mind created the planet why would I change it. Don't you think it's good? I'm a demon, drug using, 70's cult fugure, gay loving, tantra practisioner that likes anarchy in all his doings and thought...and more.
Your mind didn't create the planet. My mind created it. It's me who changes it. 
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Voodoo Doll
curses for allof you

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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228344 - 01/18/03 06:44 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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All great minds think alike
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Nomad
Mad Robot

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Re: ALS OB [Re: sirreal]
#1228346 - 01/18/03 06:45 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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Serious mental problems can come from taking this to its extreme.I knew a manic schizophrenic who lived in a world created by his own mind. Even back then it seemed to me that he was trying to change the world he lived in by changing his mind. There are certain realities one must face.
I would argue the exact opposite. The problem of a schizophrenic is that he does not know that his world is created by his mind. Knowing this, it would set him free. In Buddhism it's known as "Calling the name of Avalokiteshvara". It is said that, even when you are in hell, remembering the name of the godhead Avalokiteshvara will set you free. Damn, I have to quote zen master John Tarrant again. I have been digging him a lot lately.
"An old-time Zen student, a woman, in California, who has sat for many years, and is a very senior person, told me this wonderful story from Gregory Bateson. One time he gave a talk at Green Gulch Zen Centre, and spoke of a young boy who had psychotic episodes. The boy was schizophrenic and the whole world would close in on him and become terrifying. He would think that people were invading his mind with their thoughts, and trying to programme him through what was on the television, and telling him things to do. So he would spend time in the in-patient ward, and receive medication, and gradually his mind would clear, and they would release him, and he would go home, and get worse, and he would come back to the in-patient ward: there was this cycle. One time he was going home for Thanksgiving dinner, and he really wanted to do better this time, and he talked to his psychotherapist about how to do better. So he went home and he was having dinner, when he noticed that the peas were too green, and the turkey looked just too much like a turkey, because it was thoroughly poisoned, and he knew by the way people were looking at him that they were all wondering whether he was going to catch on to this or whether he was going to eat the turkey. And then he noticed that his mind was doing this. For the first time he noticed that his mind was doing this: he remembered the name of Avalokiteshvara in the midst of hell. He thought, "Oh, my mind is seeing the peas as too green!" and he burst out in ecstatic laughter -- and they carried him away. But still, he understood; he remembered the name. "Thank you for everything; I have nothing to complain of." And it did not matter if the people around him did not understand, because for the first time he remembered the name of Avalokiteshvara."
Edited by Nomad (01/18/03 06:46 AM)
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1228379 - 01/18/03 06:55 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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I understand what you are saying.The key being the awareness. Understanding eradicates dilusion.I have never really had anyone to discuss these things with before, so bear with me if I seem a little slow.
-------------------- I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------
I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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Voodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: ALS OB [Re: sirreal]
#1228429 - 01/18/03 07:12 AM (22 years, 27 days ago) |
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I think you understand just fine and you just had your first delicious gulp of Magic
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Viveka
refutation bias


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I know what you are referring to, Mr. Scape. I have heard it described as a "reality tunnel". The responses in this thread seem biased again this concept, and i have a feeling it is because of the negative connotation of the word "fictionism". The funny part is, this thread is an excercise in "fictionism". Everyone in here is conjecturing certain possibilities, ie: fictionism is invalid. All of our conclusions depend on the meanings of a symbolic language,especially considering that we are basically just pitting words against each other: true/false, fictionism/science, objectice/subjective, usefull/unusefull, yes/no. By using a symbolic language to seek out a particular truth; in this case "Is fictionism valid", we are answering our own question, since the words we are using cannot possibly do justice to the infinite possiblities. We are merely positing what our symbolic thinking had led us to believe, therefore we have entered a temporary "reality tunnel", in order to further explore this concept.
This becomes especially useful when there are not integrated systems in place to describe certain phenomenon. Look at quantam phsyics for example. Discoveries are being made all the time which pull the rug out from under our current scientific "absolutes". In fact, quantam physics is based on the concept that a phenomenon is directly affected by our observation of it. If this is true, then we are entering a temporary reality tunnel every time we make a scientific observation.
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Murex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
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I think you are right and wrong, David_Scape.
Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Life is but a dream that we are all here dreaming- that's what makes it real!
-------------------- What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
Edited by Murex (01/18/03 04:47 PM)
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Murex]
#1229944 - 01/18/03 07:51 PM (22 years, 26 days ago) |
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this subject is real grey cause i think its real hard to understand. its like the deal with death, once you go you cant come back and tell it how its like, what its like to be ppsychotic is just the same, you can know whats its like to brush the surface but what if you take it all the way? and it hits you completely? whats left then and what is to tell you what it takes to not make that happen. you think you know stuff about y our life and about the world but being the open mind that you are you fall into a whole nother dimension, and what then? what eyes do you have to look back upon the old world and apply it to your new realm of thought. and so your lost, everything has fallen apart. what do you do? sometimes i wonder if it has nothing to do with our "mind" or our "processor" at all, its emotional pain, something deep inside, something gives you pain and it disturbs you and your brain wont let go and it forces you to look at everything till you find it.
, but because everyone thinks your crazy they dont give a shit about trying to understand you, they dont care about trying to force you out of the darkness and into light and love and understanding
all is lost and you let go.
its not you, its the world around you which is driving you crazy,
there arent any straight answers anymore, its all some ad for reality, our routine is just a substituition for life,
and when anyone cant handle it anymore they are judged crazy, they arent in the "real".
so now what do you got left? you have igea infomercials and george forman teaching you how to make hamburgers at home with half the fat.
after all these years this is what we accomplish, this is a smooth ride. did humans ever have a collective point for the future of the human race? did they ever think about the best things for everyone?
no one dreams anymore,
this is what the masses created, what they thought was going to "save humanity"
they live in a box, we look at it but they have the remote and they control the station and can pull you in whenever they want.
i once looked at the world to see what was wrong with it, and now that i can see it, everything is disconnected. everyone in their own private universe
no one dreams anymore cause they live their fantasy in the real world, they think pimped out hondas are the "coollest fucking shit their ever was. jenna jameson is the hottest bitch, damn i love her". yeah thats the dreams and future most people look for. so can anyone say what the point is? no, they cant cause we all know everyone hasnt cared enough about everyone and everything else to make a point towards some common goal that would benefit us all. we live in a constant state of consuming duality
i live my fantasy IN a dream, in this world its all thats left. i have an imagination, but this world we live in doesnt need imagination, it needs silicon and nacho cheese. whether im crazy or not my imagination is still forced into the status quo and all bars still block the path. im skeptic of our world, but i got to believe in something good, something new, cause if i dont ill just be crazy, or ill just be like... everyone else
symbolic materialsm, "yeah, thats right"
-------------------- What?
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Nomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Zero7a1]
#1230217 - 01/19/03 01:10 AM (22 years, 26 days ago) |
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awesome rant 
thanks
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Voodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 190
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Last seen: 22 years, 16 days
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Zero7a1]
#1230291 - 01/19/03 02:48 AM (22 years, 26 days ago) |
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peace to you Rant I just woke up so my reply is somewhat incomplete, still you nailed it right there...I need coffee...
Edited by Voodoo Doll (01/19/03 02:54 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1230341 - 01/19/03 03:51 AM (22 years, 26 days ago) |
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Zero7a1 is awesome. He is our Poet Laureate!
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Sclorch
Clyster


Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: ALS OB [Re: Zero7a1]
#1232034 - 01/19/03 06:00 PM (22 years, 25 days ago) |
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Zero7a1: sometimes i wonder if it has nothing to do with our "mind" or our "processor" at all, its emotional pain, something deep inside, something gives you pain and it disturbs you and your brain wont let go and it forces you to look at everything till you find it.
That's a good mindfuck right there.
-------------------- Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


Registered: 08/05/02
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Re: ALS OB [Re: ]
#1239016 - 01/22/03 07:25 AM (22 years, 23 days ago) |
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I read the truth thread. All of it. Very big thread. If any one knows of more little gems like that one PLEASE PM ME!!. 
A good answer to your conundrum is found in a thread I created called "Truth?"... The difference is bettween public and private, explained in detail in that thread. I would use different wording in describing public experiences... A public experience is more a private perceptual experience that is CONSISTENT with others perceptual experiences. Once we've agreed they are consistent (and once I assume that you are alive like i am, whose ideas are seperate from my own mind) then we can say that we are viewing the same objects in space and that these objects exist(eg the wine bottle ect...).
I am, however, going to take a leap of faith and say that objects exist independently of there being percieved. But I still dont believe that concepts or perceptions of objects are an accurate understanding of an object as it really exists. It is only a fictionsim who's understanding, at best, can only be seperate from the truth. Once you assume as true certain postulates, then anything derived from them are fictionistic in the sense that they are only symbols that are'nt exactly truthfull but usefull. Kinda like a reflection of your self in the mirror, The image is not you, but it represents you. Dont let the word *fiction* scare you away, Think of it like USEFULL fictions or pragmatic. Perhaps the word should be changed?
In summary, my take is: The only truth you can know absolutely is subjective experience, and standing next to that truth--taking a close second in absolute truths--are the events of our mental life. In order to continue from there you need to be pragmatic and start accepting postualtes.
the thread didnt exactly answer my problem, but I am definitely glad Mr.Mushrooms directed me to that thread because if this thread got any deeper I would of made a real mess. I'm very interested in the continuation of that thread!
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


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Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
#1239045 - 01/22/03 07:35 AM (22 years, 23 days ago) |
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"Using my pragmatic definition of truth, it would follow that fictionism is invalid as an argument against, say, science, because science works and still does when you subscribe to fictionism...."
Dont you mean "because science works IN THE SAME WAY as it does when you subscribe to fictionism."? If thats what you mean then I agree. but it definitely makes you look at your own understanding of reality differently.
My definition of truth is just what's real or reality. I agree, of course, in Mr.mushrooms truth-thread that ones own existence is an absolute truth.
"So, being aware that your world is created by your mind is useful, because, then, you can change the world by changing your mind. But fictionism cannot disprove science, philosophy, or spirituality."
Well I dont think it is trying to disprove anything. I am not trying to disprove any of these. I may be trying to disprove humans goals that they could actually understanding the universe. But then again I would never want to see people halt all progress just because we can't. I dont even know exactly what is going on with spirituality so...
On another note. I like pragmatism, but i dont think it is necessarily a law that knowledge must adhere to in order to be valid.
Don't know, maybe we are just arguing over definitions?"
Possibly. I dont feel like thinking about that right now.... but after reading the truth thread, I am convinced you guys agree with this. You just dont know it yet... Im horrible at communication, that is the problem you see.
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Anonymous
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I can agree to that David.
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Anonymous
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Thanks David! You made my night!
Unfortunately, I have too many duties here to respond with anything other than gratitude. If I had time I could refine your statement(s) to more accurately conform to what I see as the Truth. Your statement(s) weren't that far off the mark.
I am unaware of any other "gems" (Gawd, I appreciated that ) in this forum but I do have several coming up that include:
Philosophical evidence for the existence of God Philosophical evidence for the existence of a soul And philosophical evidence for the putative disparity between man and other animals
If you stick with this forum long enough you will get to see them. 
Cheers
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