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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #813673 -

You don't understand. When you attack and kill Muslims in one small part of the world, it is an attack on the entire world wide Muslim community. Jihad means to struggle in the cause of God against oppression and evil. The Muslims who fought in Bosnia, or Chechnya came from all over the world. Some from Australia and the United States even.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813688 -

You don't understand. When you attack and kill Muslims in one small part of the world, it is an attack on the entire world wide Muslim community.

I understand... you're a global gang.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813693 -

Yo, man. You be attackin' one of my homies, you be attackin' all da Crips. Word!

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813697 -

In most of the secular world, there is seperation of church and state. It would be wise for the Muslim world to adopt it. (but we know those religious clerics will never give up their power.)

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Sclorch]
    #814074 -

In reply to:
It's not what is preached... it's what is practiced.

How many wars are Muslims fighting in RIGHT NOW?
WIth how many other religions?

It's hard to ignore such an obvious pattern.


If I may just add is not only Muslims, is the 3 related religions (Judea, Christian and Muslim) that make so much problem, if is up to me I will banish all of them.
But take comfort Sclorch, according to Zahid, when we go to hell you and me, we will be in the company of such grate man as Gandhi, wile he will be with brother Jeffrey Dahmer.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #814106 -

infidelGOD writes:

A religious war cannot be justified. In fact "religious war" is an oxymoron. Your God would not approve of you killing in His name, even if it is to fight oppression.

You are, of course, correct. For more details, see God's comments given at a rare press conference shortly after the World Trade Center attack:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/god_clarifies_dont_kill.html



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Edited by pinksharkmark (08/13/02 03:44 AM)

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Sclorch]
    #814171 -

"In fact, Hell is also about complete isolation from other people. It's just you, and your punishment."

Fine... it'll be just me. I'm sort of a loner anyways...

But you'll be forced to watch endless reruns of Gilligan's Island and there is no imported beer only warm Budweiser...


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (08/13/02 04:35 AM)

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Swami]
    #814327 -

In reply to:
Fine... it'll be just me. I'm sort of a loner anyways...




Don't worry Swami, all be in the cell next to you, we can play backgamon!


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: LOBO]
    #814373 -

"...according to Zahid, when we go to hell you and me, we will be in the company of such grate man as Gandhi, wile he will be with brother Jeffrey Dahmer."
----------------------------------

Now that is funny!



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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Jellric]
    #814429 -

I have always found it interesting what types of people you find in fundamentalist religions. If you notice, their concept of God is that of a strict, jealous, wrathful deity- rather like a super-parental figure. They have draconian punishments and prohibitions againsts alcohol/drug use and sexual deviancy. Now why would an adult need a parent figure? I believe most of these people are children both mentally and morally and NEED that fear of punishment to stay in line. They cannot/will not control their own appetites, so the discipline must be imposed from the outside.

The way I look at it, the majority of the Islamic worshippers are right where they are supposed to be. They have bought into a faith that meets them where they are. At their level of development, this is all of God they can accept. All the Western world can do is encourage reform in their governments, and I agree with Zahid that we have all too often propped up repressive regimes to maintain stability for us to keep that fat oil pipeline open so we can continue driving our SUV's.


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #824758 -

How about mormons? My holy document, South Park, insists that they were the correct religion.

In all seriousness, that is a much newer text of yet another prophet from god. Is John Smith wrong? If so, why? Is it at all possible that his message from god was even more complete than muhammed's?

**Edit: Joseph Smith.**


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- uno

Edited by uno (08/19/02 01:54 AM)

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #826824 -

Zahid, I feel that it is unfortunate that your viewpoint on God is so severely constricted by the Judeo-Christian/Anthropomorphized misconceptions about the subject.

Try looking at it this way - whatever Ghandi failed to realize in his lifetime he will have to realize in another lifetime to ever be at the paradise you call "heaven" and I call "nirvana." Call another chance to realize the ultimate truth in a new life "hell" if that suits you. I don't agree that it's the same. I would say that Jefrrey Dahmer's last life was probably what you would refer to as hell.

To believe all Christian dogma is to be extremely controlled by those who seek just that - to control. Besides, what the church says changes as time goes on. Do you look back 500 years and think, yeah, they were all fucked up then but now they have it exactly right.

Here's an example of some main faults with Christian religions: My little sister was converted to Presbytarianism at a Christian summer camp. Both her and I were raised with Catholic overtones but our parents are very liberal and always taught us to be open minded and to seek our own path. For the moment, my sister seems to have lost that ability, but that's another story. I mentioned to my sister that her church had changed it's official posistion around 30 years ago and redefined hell as "the state of seperation from God" instead of some theoretical firepit where you burn forever. "No," she corrects me. "The Catholic church redefined it to that, not my church." "So you beleive in a theoretical firepit forever if you don't find God in this life?" "Yes," she says.

Now think about this. Presbytarianism came straight out of Catholicism, it drew almost the whole religion from it as far as I know. If Catholicism had had itself figured out 500 years ago, Presbytarianism would have the same dogmatic belief. But because of chronological flukes and fragmentation of one main idea and so forth, she had arrived at her current belief. It's all from what someone is telling her to believe.

But that is all good and fine with me. She may not have the open minded view that I wish she did, but through her actions she is living just fine. So if her "sect" of Christianity disagrees with yours, I don't give a shit she still is going to "heaven" as you understand it, I'd just say the next life to move onto newer lessons. Just like Ghandi did.

Start asking questions, use logic, intuition, you are human which makes you quite smart and able to reason, so use yourself to find the truth rather than just taking what someone else tell's you to believe and swallowing it whole.

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #830622 -

I really can't read without responding at this point. I am not criticizing Islam by this, and if you think that I am, then you are assuming that you are a true representative of Islam as a whole. You are obviously quite new to religion, and you are hanging so literally to doctrines that you sound as though Life itself can be reduced to a number of spiritual laws. Intellectual constructs about heavens and hells abound in every faith - they are to be taken 'with a grain of salt.' Hierarchies of spiritual beings differ even within a given religion, for example. Heavens and hells are not about duration, but about intensity and eternity. These constructs are intended to convey both the reality of atemporal domains, and to instruct humans to live in such a way as to develop (simply speaking) into a being of Compassion, not into a being of Rage.

I for one do not believe in deathbed conversions, or in 'getting religion' behind bars for the most part. Verbal confessions and professions are NOT magical formulas that absolve or expunge the being that one is. You are youthfully naive to account such things as true. Magical thinking is a psychological term, not in any way connected with occultism or mystery. When the magical thinking of youth is not transcended, it may simply develop into a common and culturally accepted delusion about 'how spiritual things work.' One becomes older, but one does not mature in one's faith. If you want to believe that demon-possessed Jeffrey lost his demon, and returned to God in a pristine, forgiven condition; while Mahatma (Great Soul) Gandhi was damned and doomed because of some doctrine construed by fundamentalist Muslim theologians - that is your choice and society's problem.

Gandhi lived and died a Hindu. He knew the Bible, but remained a Hindu. His dying word was "Ram!," - God! - as an assassin's bullet murdered him; and this utterance is believed as proof to many millions of Hindu's that Gandhi was right there in the Present - in the Presence - of God, the moment that he died. That moment-to-moment awareness of God is the Truth in any religion - NOT some contrived theological construct, the violation of which supposedly insults Almighty God. You want to keep that same Muslim-Hindu war going after all these centuries by your attempt to lay your own fundamentalist doctrines on a man of another faith. That makes you a religious bigot, not a righteous man. That makes you some kind of robot, not a free man. Children love to wave swords, or scimitars, as the case may be. Hopefully you'll learn in time that 'Submission' to God means humility and respect before the Holy in other people's faiths; as well a truer understanding of the evil that men do and become.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #830926 -

MarkostheGnostic,

So, you believe Ghandi is in Heaven? I respect your viewpoint, but I disagree with what you are calling fundamentalism. I would like to encourage you to read Qur'an, and what it says. Both our faiths talk about hypocrites, disbelief, repentence, and Hell. While you believe it is demons who possess evil people, I believe it is subconcious refuge in shaytaan that these people take. Yes, you believe Jeffrey Dahmer is in Hell, even though he believed Jesus Christ was his saviour, and repented to Allah for his crimes. No, Jeff Dahmer won't get off the hook that easy. Surely he will spend time in Hell to purify the evil from him. He was after all, attracted to cadavers. Are you claiming Islam is fundamentalist as a whole? Islam clearly states disbelievers and hypocrites will be lost in the Fire forever. It also says those who believe in Allah, will enter Paradise. There is a verse in the Qur'an that clearly states those who follow the teachings of Jesus, Moses, or Muhammad will have nothing to fear on the day of judgement. In my eyes, there is no true fundamentalism. You seem to see me believing the Qur'an is 100% accurate as fundamentalism. You have a different perception, but Ghandi was a hypocrite and a disbeliever. His idea of God was a perverse one. He was a good man, he could have earned himself many rewards if he believed in God's messengers. I don't know if Jeffrey Dahmer was truly sorry, but if he was, I'm confident God would forgive Him because God loves to forgive His children in the physical world, and you should know that.

To be perfectly honest with you, our opinions are clashing because we are members of faiths that are also clashing as we speak.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #831375 -

Zahid, I'm pretty sure that not every muslim would repeatedly smack away the olive branch as you have done.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #831863 -

Since you do not know anything about the faith of Mohandas Gandhi, you are not in any way capable of evaluating it, let alone passing judgement on the man. The contradiction you made, that Gandhi had a perverse idea of God, but was a good man, is testimony enough to your illogic. One's goodness derives from one's spiritual nature, which in turn derives from God.

You do not read with any accuracy. I attributed YOUR description to Dahmer as demon-possession, not mine. Your attribution to the "subconscious," is your own construct, not a Qur'anic one. Moreover, as a fundamentalist, you don't realize that you are one. You merely unconsciously project your adopted world-view on everyone AS IF it is the norm for everyone. You have not come to terms with the plurality and relativity of Mankind's religious views about the ONE GOD.

Learn not to read or apprehend scriptures like a pilot's flight manual. Life does not operate 'by the numbers,' and robots have foraken the freedom, and therefore the essential Godliness that God has bestowed on Mankind. Our views do not clash because I am a Jewish Christian and you a Muslim. Our views clash because I Realize the Word of God in Spirit and in Truth - in my each and every breath and heartbeat - in my human life which is sustained moment-to-moment by God. You have placed a paper bundle with inked words before the very Life that you have of God. Bibliolatry with any Scripture is still Idolatry - Shirk. Only a blatant materialist would fail to realize that the Books are outward manifestations of inward and invisible Truth. You are not a book; neither will you become a book after death of the body. Neither is God a book. Neither are non-temporal realms of Paradise and Perdition books. Reality is not a 'thing.'

Worst of all is religious bigotry - Muslim, Christian or anything else. Worship God in your own way, but pass no judgement on other men. That is God's prerogative, not yours. You have become as brainwashed as any other generation of militant fundamentalists - creators of jihads and crusades. You have become ego-inflated by your new-found faith; identified with an archetype from the collective unconscious of the 'righteous warrior for God,' in a Muslim tradition. The same pathological inflation from the same archetype afflicts Christians, Jews and all others who have behaved in the manner of a warlike conquerer. How dare you continue to perpetuate bigotry and hatefulness in your generation!? How 'big' of you to assure me that I am OK with God - by the standards of YOUR faith! AS IF I required assurance from outside my own faith stance for that knowledge. You can't even see how inflated your own point of view is, because you are in this huge psychological blind-spot. Better to conform to the image of a man prostrated on his prayer rug before Almighty God, than seeing himself as an Almighty Warrior on horseback. You need a radical ego-adjustment my friend.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #832288 -

Yea! what he said!

you are inspiring, Markos

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #833537 -

Since you do not know anything about the faith of Mohandas Gandhi, you are not in any way capable of evaluating it, let alone passing judgement on the man. The contradiction you made, that Gandhi had a perverse idea of God, but was a good man, is testimony enough to your illogic. One's goodness derives from one's spiritual nature, which in turn derives from God.

I do know Mohandas Gandhi was a Hindu, and I do know that one of the beliefs in Hinduism is that if you live this life doing good, the next life on earth will be better. Yes, he was a righteous, good man. But once again, his deeds are not worth anything because he died in disbelief. The Qur'an has made it clear, several times through out the book, that disbelief in Allah's Messengers is deception, and Disbelievers await the Fire as their refuge. When I preach, I preach the truth. I'm not going to sugar code it to the kufr that Hindus or Buddhists go to Heaven because they are righteous. I explain to them the aspect of being judged ignorant as well, if you never recieve the word of God. I use Gandhi as an example often, how your good deeds are worthless if you die in disbelief. I use Jeffrey Dahmer as an example of how Merciful Allah is. But you don't see it, I suppose.

One's goodness derives from one's spiritual nature, which in turn derives from God.

Explain this more clearly.

You do not read with any accuracy. I attributed YOUR description to Dahmer as demon-possession, not mine. Your attribution to the "subconscious," is your own construct, not a Qur'anic one. Moreover, as a fundamentalist, you don't realize that you are one. You merely unconsciously project your adopted world-view on everyone AS IF it is the norm for everyone. You have not come to terms with the plurality and relativity of Mankind's religious views about the ONE GOD.

Quick to judge, are we? I project my view on everyone because it is the truth, I love debating with atheist intellectuals, and the Spirituality forum on the Shroomery is the proper place to do so. You should note, I have four close friends who are Christian, and three who absolutely hate religion.

Learn not to read or apprehend scriptures like a pilot's flight manual. Life does not operate 'by the numbers,' and robots have foraken the freedom, and therefore the essential Godliness that God has bestowed on Mankind. Our views do not clash because I am a Jewish Christian and you a Muslim. Our views clash because I Realize the Word of God in Spirit and in Truth - in my each and every breath and heartbeat - in my human life which is sustained moment-to-moment by God. You have placed a paper bundle with inked words before the very Life that you have of God. Bibliolatry with any Scripture is still Idolatry - Shirk. Only a blatant materialist would fail to realize that the Books are outward manifestations of inward and invisible Truth. You are not a book; neither will you become a book after death of the body. Neither is God a book. Neither are non-temporal realms of Paradise and Perdition books. Reality is not a 'thing.'

Once again you are quick to judge, going so far as to saying I am associating partners with God. For some reason you think I actually worship the Qur'an, instead of God. Are you listening to yourself? Reality is not a book of course, but the book I speak of, the Holy Qur'an is the complete word of God. All Muslims know this is true because of the obvious history of Islam. If you are claiming my belief is shirk, then you must be claiming everyone of the ummah (the world's Muslims) has a shirk belief, and to me, that is fundamentalism.


Worst of all is religious bigotry - Muslim, Christian or anything else. Worship God in your own way, but pass no judgement on other men. That is God's prerogative, not yours. You have become as brainwashed as any other generation of militant fundamentalists - creators of jihads and crusades. You have become ego-inflated by your new-found faith; identified with an archetype from the collective unconscious of the 'righteous warrior for God,' in a Muslim tradition. The same pathological inflation from the same archetype afflicts Christians, Jews and all others who have behaved in the manner of a warlike conquerer. How dare you continue to perpetuate bigotry and hatefulness in your generation!? How 'big' of you to assure me that I am OK with God - by the standards of YOUR faith! AS IF I required assurance from outside my own faith stance for that knowledge. You can't even see how inflated your own point of view is, because you are in this huge psychological blind-spot. Better to conform to the image of a man prostrated on his prayer rug before Almighty God, than seeing himself as an Almighty Warrior on horseback. You need a radical ego-adjustment my friend.

How dare you forbid me to preach the truth. And I am fundamentalist because I believe in armed resistance against oppression? Mohammed Atta was a fundamentalist, I am not. Fundamentalist Muslims believe Christians and Jews go to Hell, I do not. Fundamentalists believe blowing yourself up is not suicide. Fundamentalists believe all Israelis are legitmate to kill because they recieved military training by the IDF. This is fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is interpreting a religion your own way to justify whatever ill actions you wish to carry out.

You need a radical ego-adjustment my friend.

I should say the same thing, but I won't.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #834038 -

When I preach, I preach the truth

Ok so now you are one of god's chosen messengers of truth instead of some silly little canuck with a library card. I see.

hey mohammed, on your way to heaven try not to hijack any planes...


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #836067 -

I have long known that it was useless to talk with fundamentalist Christians, and thought that I would enjoin reason to speak to a fundamentalist (though you deny this and attribute fundamentalism to fanatical and pathological parties alone) Muslim. It is a lesson for me. It is useless in your tradition as well.

For your information, rebirth, transmigration can be found among Muslim Sufis; among early Christianity; among Jewish Kabbalism and of course in the East. You are stuck in EXOTERIC religious form, and until you are able to pierce the veils which cover the Holy Mysteries of your faith, you will never pass into the ESOTERIC Knowledge that will free you from your own religio-centric perversion. As Murshid Sam Lewis once said, "I have no questions, but all the answers."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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