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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #810650 - 08/11/02 11:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Satan believes in God. Does he go to Heaven?


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810661 - 08/11/02 11:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am a Muslim. I could care less what a non-believer thinks of Islam. Either people really dislike religion or they are in love with it.

The reality is, anyone who believes in the one God, the God who sent messages through Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses, will eventually be rewarded with Paradise.

I present the truth to people, and I used Osama as an example since we're on the topic of Jeffrey Dahmer, who is not Muslim at all. I'm quite appalled you, a kufr would say that.


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Edited by Zahid (08/11/02 11:58 AM)


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810673 - 08/11/02 12:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Satan is not a human. The situation of belief and disbelief does not apply since Satan does not go through the dying process of leaving the physical world for the next. He is a jinn, aware of God, but chose to rebel against Him. Hell is where Shaytaan will eventually abide, along with jinns who chose to follow him.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #810674 - 08/11/02 12:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I also believe in one God. But if I murder 4000 innocent people, while proclaiming my belief in God, Heaven is not where I am headed.




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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810680 - 08/11/02 12:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No, you don't believe in God, mushrikan.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #810693 - 08/11/02 12:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Wait I'm confused.

Am I a "kufr", a "jinn" or a "mushrikan"?



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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810701 - 08/11/02 12:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you.

You are not a jinn, you are a man. Don't be silly.

Kufr and Mushrikan are basically in the same category. Don't worry about it.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #811393 - 08/11/02 06:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Jellric, Jeffrey Dahmer read the Bible daily and spoke for hours often with the reverend who baptized him while serving a nearly 500 year sentence for his crimes."
----------------------------------------

Yes I'm quite sure he had plenty of time on his hands once behind bars.
People have also been known to build houses from popcicle sticks given enough time.
Don't be naive. A prophet once said (I won't give his name since you would most likely reject his words as he is not of your particular religous belief), " Be ye both as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves."


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Edited by Jellric (08/12/02 08:05 AM)


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812013 - 08/12/02 04:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Gandhi may have lived a life filled with thousands among thousands of good deeds. His good deeds for sure outweighed his bad did deeds, but all those good deeds are worthless because Gandhi was deceived into believing that if he lived this life well spent, the next life on earth will be even better. Unfortunately for Gandhi, he associated partners with God, Jeffrey Dahmer didn't.




My friend, your train of thought is the one that has this world into shambles, is the thought of blind ignorance and fundamentalism once again the Judea, Christian and Muslim heritage.
To say that Gandhi, witch was a practitioner of peace and love, is doomed, because he was not from one of the religions mention above, is just plain ignorance.
I don't know if heaven or hell exist, but I will state here and loud, to accept your version of god (one of vengeance, blood and neat picky about stupid rules) I rather burn in hell for all eternity than to accept a god like that.
So be it.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #812016 - 08/12/02 04:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Satan believes in God. Does he go to Heaven?




He he


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #812732 - 08/12/02 12:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Satan believes in God. Does he go to Heaven?

Eventually..


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: LOBO]
    #812772 - 08/12/02 12:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My friend, your train of thought is the one that has this world into shambles, is the thought of blind ignorance and fundamentalism once again the Judea, Christian and Muslim heritage. To say that Gandhi, witch was a practitioner of peace and love, is doomed, because he was not from one of the religions mention above, is just plain ignorance. I don't know if heaven or hell exist, but I will state here and loud, to accept your version of god (one of vengeance, blood and neat picky about stupid rules) I rather burn in hell for all eternity than to accept a god like that.
So be it.


Plain ignorance? Heh. My religion clearly states anyone who dies in disbelief of God's messengers to man will be one of Hell's inmates. The disbelievers forgot about God in the world, and so God will forget about them in the next life. Ghandi was a Hindu. He was clearly aware of Islam, and other faiths. He rejected God.

Lets stop beating around the bush, If God showed Himself to you right now and told you disbelievers burn for eternity, would you still turn your head away from Him and say "I won't believe in a God who damns people forever"?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812783 - 08/12/02 12:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My religion clearly states anyone who dies in disbelief of God's messengers to man will be one of Hell's inmates

It doesn't matter what your religion states. I respect your faith but you don't speak for God. God speaks for himself. (wait, am i speaking for God here.. )

Anyway, if God revealed himself to Ghandi, he isn't going to accept religion, he's going to accept God. Religion has nothing to do with it.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812825 - 08/12/02 01:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

He was clearly aware of Islam, and other faiths. He rejected God.



I can't remember where exactly I read this (one of those Mayan or Incan philosophies perhaps?) but someone once mentioned that God sent several different prophets to this world to pass on his word in different ways so that we all could realize that different people interpret things differently, and just because one person's or group's interpretation isn't the same as another's that doesn't make either one any more right then any other. If I remember correctly Jesus was one of these men, and Ghandi was another...and by looking at how each one chose to live their life I can only assume that the both were tuned into the same exact message, even if they both chose to represent it differently.

Now if you're too caught up in your own interpretation of the truth to even be open to the fact that other interpretations of the same truth exist, then I truely do feel sorry for you. But I would like to point out the fact that even in the bible there are at least four different interpretations of Jesus's ressurrection...this alone should prove my point in your eyes (or at least, so I would assume) If I wanted to though I could also point out other places in the bible where stuff like baptism is mentioned several different ways. Does that mean only one way is right, or that they all could be correct? Why is it so hard for you to be open to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the importance isn't in being true to the word (so to speak) but rather true to the meaning behind the word?


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812873 - 08/12/02 01:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid: "if God showed Himself on earth and told all the sodomites that what they are doing is evil, would they still practice sodomy?"

"If God showed Himself on eart and told all the rebels (of Allah) that eternal punishment for disbelief is a reality, would they still rebel?"
-------------------------------------------
Well in the book of Exodus there are more displays of supernatural power to the masses than anywhere else in the Bible. We have plagues of locusts, fiery hail, frogs falling from the sky, firstborns dying, water turned to blood, serpents materializing, a tornado made of fire, and the parting of the Red Sea in front of all the Israelites. These were the very same people who later worshipped an inanimate calf made of gold!


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #812885 - 08/12/02 01:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn't matter what your religion states. I respect your faith but you don't speak for God. God speaks for himself. (wait, am i speaking for God here.. )

Anyway, if God revealed himself to Ghandi, he isn't going to accept religion, he's going to accept God. Religion has nothing to do with it.


Look, you can't surrender to God without accepting one of His guides, which is described today as religion. Either you have a plea of ignorance, or you don't. Ghandi, does not have a plea of ignorance since he was aware of the messages.

This angers God, when people say they believe in Him yet reject His message (Islam, Christianity, or Judaism). These people are called the mushrikan for the last time. They don't believe in God at all. None of them do. They say they do, but they clearly reject God. The mushrikan have learned the basics of either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam but they do not surrender to that faith, instead they are decieved that they do not need religion at all.

The Qur'an in Arabic is the complete word of God, all of it written by God through the hand of Muhammad.

I don't speak for God, but the Holy Qur'an is God speaking.

Clearly, you will never get into paradise if you reject what you call "religion". Religion is hardly the word to describe something that is a reality.

Once again, infidelGOD, you say you believe in God, but are you a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew? If you are not, I am sorry, but you are mushrikan.

Faith in God can bring people to tears (of joy). Video clips of this years Hajj in Mecca showed Muslims all over the world quietly crying and praying at Holy Kabba.

In other words, you can't experience God while rejecting His messengers. Not the way true believers experience God, because unlike the mushrikan, they believe in God.

Some people just don't believe no matter what, in their heart is a sickness.


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Edited by Zahid (08/12/02 01:22 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812918 - 08/12/02 01:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

you can't surrender to God without accepting one of His guides

This is where we disagree, God can be experienced directly (though most people do benifit from "guides").

you say you believe in God, but are a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew? If you are not, I am sorry, but you are mushrikan

I was raised Christain and I consider myself a born-again Christian but my progressive theology is at odds with my religion.

In other words, you can't experience God while rejecting His message

Yes you can - God is the message. What I am rejecting is not the message, I am rejecting those people who are confusing His message (the word of God) with their message (religious dogma).


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Offlinemirrorsaw
journeyman
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 52
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812948 - 08/12/02 01:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The reality is, anyone who believes in the one God, the God who sent messages through Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses, will eventually be rewarded with Paradise.

According to the Bhagavad Gita those people who are religious and want to be rewarded with paradise will get that reward... for a time, and then they will be reincarnated back into the world.

I don't want to stereotype Muslims or Christians, but there is a tendency for many of them to be closed minded towards other religious faiths.

It's easy to think that people like that are bigoted and spiritually immature, but I think it is better to think that they are sincere people who just happen to belong to a religion that sometimes encourages it's followers to think in that way.

A poem by Rumi, a 13th century Muslim mystic (sufism)

All through eternity
Beauty unveils His exquisite form
in the solitude of nothingness;
He holds a mirror to His Face
and beholds His own beauty.
he is the knower and the known,
the seer and the seen;
No eye but His own
has ever looked upon this Universe.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #812957 - 08/12/02 01:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This is where we disagree, God can be experienced directly (though most people do benifit from "guides").

If they are Christian, Muslim, or Jew, then people can experience God on such a level that people cry out of joy. Otherwise, God is not even going to show Himself to those who reject faith. You can say the mushrikan are experiencing God, they are not. They have no faith, so God will forget about them.

What I directly experienced could not be experienced without what you call organized religion.

I was raised Christain and I consider myself a born-again Christian but my progressive theology is at odds with my religion.

So you're disillusioned with your faith. Most christians I speak with have a strong faith, and militant atheism doesn't bother them at all. Learn more about Islam then, the only religion on earth today that remains undistorted. You'll also find it difficult, if not impossible to contradict the Qur'an.

Yes you can - God is the message. What I am rejecting is not the message, I am rejecting those people who are confusing His message (the word of God) with their message (religious dogma).

Yes, people do distort the word of God revealed to His messengers. This is what Islam is for, the final message. The religion that will never change no matter how liberal and sinful the rest of the world gets.

If you reject God's message, either the highly distorted message of Jesus or Moses, or the pure message of Muhammad, you are mushrikan.

On the Day of Judgement, every human (including our friend Sclorch) will have to face God while He gives us our review. At the end of the review, God makes His judgment. If you lived your life 9000 years before christ, for example, God will judge you as ignorant and allow you to the highest place in Paradise. If you lived in today's modern world, with knowledge of faith since childhood, yet complete rejection, I imagine God will judge you as non believer and Hell is where you will abide.


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Edited by Zahid (08/12/02 01:50 PM)


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Offlinepimpadelic
enthusiast
Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 255
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813094 - 08/12/02 02:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid, If there is a hell I will see you there buddy. Until the afterlife, later


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