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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 1 day
Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer
    #807462 - 08/09/02 05:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What does this have to do with Spirituality and philosophy? You'll see.

Enter mentioned something earlier that got my attention, regarding evil spirits (jinns who listen to Shaytaan to us Muslims) inflicting a person in the will of God in order to bring about struggle, and eventually belief.

Before I utter the story of Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer, you should know who he is.

He was born in 1960, and died in 1994. He was sexually attracted to the corpses of dead men (his infliction), and during his lifetime, he murdered about 17 young men in total. However, what matters is what he was, who he was, and what he believed in when he died.

There are several factors that seperate a soul like Jeffrey Dahmer from a soul like Henry Lee Lucas. Jeffrey Dahmer, unfortunately was afflicted with an extremely rare paraphilia that ultimately controlled every aspect of his life from the age of 15 until he was 31 years old. Jeffrey Dahmer didn't torture animals, leave calling cards, taunt the police, collect newspaper clippings of his crimes like most conventional serial killers.

Most serial killers constantly kill because the act of physically killing another human being is extremely pleasurable to them. When Jeffrey Dahmer killed, he strangled them with neck ties quickly while they were passed out so that they became cadavers. Jeffrey wasn't addicted to killing, but was addicted to killing people for their dead bodies.

If you ever read Lionel Dahmer's A Father's Story you might understand why I'm bringing up a dead serial killer.

Jeffrey Dahmer ultimately became a Christian after his arrest. Not five years into his sentence or 20 years into his sentence, but directly after the madness when he was sent to prison. He read the Bible on a daily basis until one day, a schizophrenic man killed him in Prison around two years after his conversion. After his death, Jeffrey Dahmer's father also became a Christian, as did Jeff's older brother. Jeffrey Dahmer, unlike most serial killers, had a conscience, that's why he turned to the LORD in search of forgiveness.

What does this have to do with anything?

Sometimes, it takes an unknowing dreadful journey into deception until the truth realized for what it is.

Jeff Dahmer, who was homosexual by nature, and not practice, (after his conversion) found God when he realized the absolute destruction he had cause. He said over and over again, that he fears God will not forgive him. The reverend who baptized him told Jeff that God loves to forgive people who ask in this life (this is why He is so Mericful, no matter who you are, you can seek refuge in God which is for the benefit of yourself in the long run).

God does what He pleases. It took me awhile to completely understand how God could reward someone like Jeffrey Dahmer with Paradise, and damn someone like Ghandi. It's the way it is- when you die in disbelief of the messenger(s), you give up eternal life. God is never unjust., and anyone who disagrees is a fool to do so.
The fact that we argue experience...

It is said, God will guide the disbelievers deeper into disbelief, just as He guides the believers deeper into belief.

The wicked who don't believe don't experience God for a reason.

I'm still convinced under other circumstances, Jeffrey Dahmer would have never believed. What happened to him was in a plan that most of us can hardly comprehend, but if you believe, you will see.

When I argue experience.. in that sense, what have I experienced?

I can describe in words, but it's like this... when you seek refuge with the Creator, you experience true peace in your heart. The more you remember God, the more peaceful you are. You also see through every deception that leads one to disbelieve when you surrender your will to God.

When you let your animal self control your free will, you are letting evil decieve you. When you surrender your will to God, you do deeds with your free will according to the guidance He has given you.

Ghandi may have lived a life filled with thousands among thousands of good deeds. His good deeds for sure outweighed his bad did deeds, but all those good deeds are worthless because because Ghandi was decieved into believing that if he lived this life well spent, the next life on earth will be even better. Unfortunately for Ghandi, he associated partners with God, Jeffrey Dahmer didn't.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #807564 - 08/09/02 06:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

God does what He pleases. It took me awhile to completely understand how God could reward someone like Jeffrey Dahmer with Paradise, and damn someone like Ghandi. It's the way it is- when you die in disbelief of the messenger(s), you give up eternal life. God is never unjust., and anyone who disagrees is a fool to do so.

Fuck that God. I told you he was a dick.
peace,

An Admitted Fool (according to your terms)


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #807738 - 08/09/02 07:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid - Please don't take this as a personal attack...I'm just posting my point of view.

I say the god most often referred to by christians in general isn't the real God at all...just the entity that created us. This particular entity (be he a single being or an entire race) can be (and is in my opinion) a major pain in the ass. This 'god' is the one that feels it's okay to punish the 'wicked' and damn anyone that doesn't follow his rules by the letter. The real God however, is exactly what 'god' should be - an all passionate all forgiving entity that knows nothing outside of love. So if you choose to believe in (and possibly even worship) some cruel hearted bastard of a god, then so be it. I can't change your beliefs any more then you can change mine. But I can tell ya this much though: Ghandi was a great man, and he will be rewarded for his good deeds with or without baptism/holy ghost/whatever (at least as far as I see it anyways)


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #807789 - 08/09/02 08:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

How do you know that God damned Ghandi and sent Dahmer to paradise?
God did not do this. It is men who presume to speak for God who damned Ghandi to eternal damnation and allowed Dahmer to live with the saints. This does not surprise me because men who presume to speak for God are usually the farthest from Him.

It is said, God will guide the disbelievers deeper into disbelief, just as He guides the believers deeper into belief.

Where is this said? This seems an awfully cruel act by God to "guide disbelievers deeper into disbelief" and ultimately into Hell. I thought God was trying to help us get into Heaven. Maybe you are referring to your god here but I don't think a compassionate God would do such a thing.



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InvisibleDraig
Stranger
Registered: 07/13/02
Posts: 41
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer *DELETED* [Re: Zahid]
    #807804 - 08/09/02 08:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Draig


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_________________________
My only experience with the cultivation of mushrooms is with edibles like shittake, portobellos and oysters.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #807957 - 08/09/02 10:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I thought Dahmer did torture animals? There's a photo in his biography from when he was a kid where he's cut a dogs head off and put it on a stick on a busy footpath to upset people.

He was also building a shrine where all the spirits of the people he killed could worship him. I think Jeff had a good share of wickedness in him as well as the mental problems.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 286
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Xlea321]
    #808162 - 08/10/02 03:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i see you are doing gods messenging these days. that is a ridiculous point of view, take yours truths about life from what you can see in the real world, not what you read, dont say it.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #808214 - 08/10/02 04:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

haha...thats all I have to say about that..this is the best time for the use of a man named Swami.


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,487
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #808236 - 08/10/02 05:32 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

m.c.
you appear to be a gnostic ...
z.
i think that dahmer's father was a practicing lutheran, which would make him a christian (and jeffery as well, one must assume...)
(ummm, does anybody remember jubal harshaw's distaste for the heaven of the fosterites/church of the new revelation?)


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 228
Loc: My tiny corner of the pad...
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Draig]
    #808556 - 08/10/02 10:04 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Your god rewards Jeffrey Dahmer with eternal bliss in heaven and damns Mahatma Gandhi to eternal hellfire. I for one won't be worshipping that god anytime soon.

Ummmm Yep Thats what I was thinking. If this is the attitude of the god who made the universe and all its laws then he most resembles a spoiled bratty child who needs a good ass whipping.

"I won't let you play with my barbie cause you won't listen to me so there." God 3:16

Fuck that. I would rather be on my own and lost than chained to an altar...


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: postalboy]
    #808559 - 08/10/02 10:08 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The chains forged in the white hot fire of freewill are impossible to break.

All may do as they please.

Do you lick stamps for a living? Or what?


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #808590 - 08/10/02 10:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"God does what He pleases. It took me awhile to completely understand how God could reward someone like Jeffrey Dahmer with Paradise, and damn someone like Ghandi."
-----------------------------

It is stunning that a seemingly reasonable person would believe such a thing.
I would rather spend an eternity in hell than worship such an unjust god.
Such a god would be a tyrant. It is sad to see someone throw their god-given mind away.
I encourage you to rethink your beliefs because god is a god of justice and reason.

As for Damer's so-called "conversion", I don't believe it for a second.
It's funny how people when they get caught find religion straight away.

This thread reminds me why I got out of the religion game in the first place.
Religion stinks to high heaven.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #808622 - 08/10/02 10:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Funny you should say that, that's actually what a lot of my beliefs are basd off of. I couldn't really claim to be a true gnostic though, cause I also have a lot buddahist, American Indian, and metaphysical beliefs mixed in there as well. I guess you can say my 'religion' (if that's what you want to call it) is a sort of Heinz 57 of spirituality. But hey, don't we all kinda do that to some extent?


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 228
Loc: My tiny corner of the pad...
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: ]
    #808627 - 08/10/02 10:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I don't generally lick them, as I prefer to gently suck, then bite them. We sell self-adhesives mostly anyway. But to answer the question, yes I do work for the Post Office. scary huh? I post in the security forum for people with mail problems relating to our collective hobby. no one reads my posts but the knowledge is there if it is ever needed. LOL


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: postalboy]
    #808800 - 08/10/02 12:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

LOL A government agent?

I am straight dude. Honest.

[tosses baggie out window]

good work postal. even if people don't reply doesn't mean they don't read it. In a forum like that you get a lot of people that read and don't post because they are cautious. They even go there to read under anonymous. Not that I've ever done that.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 1 day
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Jellric]
    #810616 - 08/11/02 11:30 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Here's another example:

if God showed Himself on earth and told all the sodomites that what they are doing is evil, would they still practice sodomy?

Consider this:

If God showed Himself on eart and told all the rebels (of Allah) that eternal punishment for disbelief is a reality, would they still rebel?


Jellric, Jeffrey Dahmer read the Bible daily and spoke for hours often with the reverend who baptized him while serving a nearly 500 year sentence for his crimes.

I'm not saying Jeffrey Dahmer is an angel. He will likely spend a very, very long time in Hell before he finally gets rewarded the lowest level (I'm assuming, not speaking for God) of Paradise (Heaven is divided into seven levels based on good deeds and vise versa for Hell for bad deeds. The very righteous inhabit the highest level of Heaven while the disbelievers and suicides abide in the lowest level of Hell, the level where inmates do not escape). The last man out of Hell will be the most wicked of men who believed in the one God..

Osama bin Laden will likely spend even more time in Hell than Jeffrey Dahmer, considering Osama killed nearly 4,000 in total with his minions. But when Osama is released from punishment, I imagine he'll recieve a rather high level in Paradise because of his good deeds (he built many mosques in Saudi Arabia, and several hospitals in Afghanistan, to name a few) Unfortunately the deception of Shaytaan made Osama believe what he was doing in the sake of jihad was justified in the eyes of God, just as Ghandi was decieved into believing that he will return to earth again and again after death. This world is complete with deception and pleasure to guide those away from God.


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OfflineChubbSubb
Zen Lunatic

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 612
Loc: Here.
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #810637 - 08/11/02 11:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I say the god most often referred to by christians in general isn't the real God at all...just the entity that created us. This particular entity (be he a single being or an entire race) can be (and is in my opinion) a major pain in the ass. This 'god' is the one that feels it's okay to punish the 'wicked' and damn anyone that doesn't follow his rules by the letter. The real God however, is exactly what 'god' should be - an all passionate all forgiving entity that knows nothing outside of love. So if you choose to believe in (and possibly even worship) some cruel hearted bastard of a god, then so be it. I can't change your beliefs any more then you can change mine. But I can tell ya this much though: Ghandi was a great man, and he will be rewarded for his good deeds with or without baptism/holy ghost/whatever (at least as far as I see it anyways)

Well put,


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #810638 - 08/11/02 11:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But when Osama is released from punishment, I imagine he'll recieve a rather high level in Paradise because of his good deeds

stop.

You are misrepresenting Islam.



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #810640 - 08/11/02 11:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

perhaps that is your intention...


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810642 - 08/11/02 11:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Heh, explain how. He believes in God.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #810650 - 08/11/02 11:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Satan believes in God. Does he go to Heaven?


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810661 - 08/11/02 11:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am a Muslim. I could care less what a non-believer thinks of Islam. Either people really dislike religion or they are in love with it.

The reality is, anyone who believes in the one God, the God who sent messages through Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses, will eventually be rewarded with Paradise.

I present the truth to people, and I used Osama as an example since we're on the topic of Jeffrey Dahmer, who is not Muslim at all. I'm quite appalled you, a kufr would say that.


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Edited by Zahid (08/11/02 11:58 AM)


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 1 day
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810673 - 08/11/02 12:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Satan is not a human. The situation of belief and disbelief does not apply since Satan does not go through the dying process of leaving the physical world for the next. He is a jinn, aware of God, but chose to rebel against Him. Hell is where Shaytaan will eventually abide, along with jinns who chose to follow him.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #810674 - 08/11/02 12:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I also believe in one God. But if I murder 4000 innocent people, while proclaiming my belief in God, Heaven is not where I am headed.




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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 1 day
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810680 - 08/11/02 12:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

No, you don't believe in God, mushrikan.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #810693 - 08/11/02 12:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Wait I'm confused.

Am I a "kufr", a "jinn" or a "mushrikan"?



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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 1 day
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #810701 - 08/11/02 12:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you.

You are not a jinn, you are a man. Don't be silly.

Kufr and Mushrikan are basically in the same category. Don't worry about it.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #811393 - 08/11/02 06:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Jellric, Jeffrey Dahmer read the Bible daily and spoke for hours often with the reverend who baptized him while serving a nearly 500 year sentence for his crimes."
----------------------------------------

Yes I'm quite sure he had plenty of time on his hands once behind bars.
People have also been known to build houses from popcicle sticks given enough time.
Don't be naive. A prophet once said (I won't give his name since you would most likely reject his words as he is not of your particular religous belief), " Be ye both as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves."


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Edited by Jellric (08/12/02 08:05 AM)


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812013 - 08/12/02 04:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Gandhi may have lived a life filled with thousands among thousands of good deeds. His good deeds for sure outweighed his bad did deeds, but all those good deeds are worthless because Gandhi was deceived into believing that if he lived this life well spent, the next life on earth will be even better. Unfortunately for Gandhi, he associated partners with God, Jeffrey Dahmer didn't.




My friend, your train of thought is the one that has this world into shambles, is the thought of blind ignorance and fundamentalism once again the Judea, Christian and Muslim heritage.
To say that Gandhi, witch was a practitioner of peace and love, is doomed, because he was not from one of the religions mention above, is just plain ignorance.
I don't know if heaven or hell exist, but I will state here and loud, to accept your version of god (one of vengeance, blood and neat picky about stupid rules) I rather burn in hell for all eternity than to accept a god like that.
So be it.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
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Loc: NY
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #812016 - 08/12/02 04:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Satan believes in God. Does he go to Heaven?




He he


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #812732 - 08/12/02 12:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Satan believes in God. Does he go to Heaven?

Eventually..


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: LOBO]
    #812772 - 08/12/02 12:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My friend, your train of thought is the one that has this world into shambles, is the thought of blind ignorance and fundamentalism once again the Judea, Christian and Muslim heritage. To say that Gandhi, witch was a practitioner of peace and love, is doomed, because he was not from one of the religions mention above, is just plain ignorance. I don't know if heaven or hell exist, but I will state here and loud, to accept your version of god (one of vengeance, blood and neat picky about stupid rules) I rather burn in hell for all eternity than to accept a god like that.
So be it.


Plain ignorance? Heh. My religion clearly states anyone who dies in disbelief of God's messengers to man will be one of Hell's inmates. The disbelievers forgot about God in the world, and so God will forget about them in the next life. Ghandi was a Hindu. He was clearly aware of Islam, and other faiths. He rejected God.

Lets stop beating around the bush, If God showed Himself to you right now and told you disbelievers burn for eternity, would you still turn your head away from Him and say "I won't believe in a God who damns people forever"?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812783 - 08/12/02 12:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My religion clearly states anyone who dies in disbelief of God's messengers to man will be one of Hell's inmates

It doesn't matter what your religion states. I respect your faith but you don't speak for God. God speaks for himself. (wait, am i speaking for God here.. )

Anyway, if God revealed himself to Ghandi, he isn't going to accept religion, he's going to accept God. Religion has nothing to do with it.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812825 - 08/12/02 01:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

He was clearly aware of Islam, and other faiths. He rejected God.



I can't remember where exactly I read this (one of those Mayan or Incan philosophies perhaps?) but someone once mentioned that God sent several different prophets to this world to pass on his word in different ways so that we all could realize that different people interpret things differently, and just because one person's or group's interpretation isn't the same as another's that doesn't make either one any more right then any other. If I remember correctly Jesus was one of these men, and Ghandi was another...and by looking at how each one chose to live their life I can only assume that the both were tuned into the same exact message, even if they both chose to represent it differently.

Now if you're too caught up in your own interpretation of the truth to even be open to the fact that other interpretations of the same truth exist, then I truely do feel sorry for you. But I would like to point out the fact that even in the bible there are at least four different interpretations of Jesus's ressurrection...this alone should prove my point in your eyes (or at least, so I would assume) If I wanted to though I could also point out other places in the bible where stuff like baptism is mentioned several different ways. Does that mean only one way is right, or that they all could be correct? Why is it so hard for you to be open to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the importance isn't in being true to the word (so to speak) but rather true to the meaning behind the word?


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812873 - 08/12/02 01:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid: "if God showed Himself on earth and told all the sodomites that what they are doing is evil, would they still practice sodomy?"

"If God showed Himself on eart and told all the rebels (of Allah) that eternal punishment for disbelief is a reality, would they still rebel?"
-------------------------------------------
Well in the book of Exodus there are more displays of supernatural power to the masses than anywhere else in the Bible. We have plagues of locusts, fiery hail, frogs falling from the sky, firstborns dying, water turned to blood, serpents materializing, a tornado made of fire, and the parting of the Red Sea in front of all the Israelites. These were the very same people who later worshipped an inanimate calf made of gold!


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #812885 - 08/12/02 01:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn't matter what your religion states. I respect your faith but you don't speak for God. God speaks for himself. (wait, am i speaking for God here.. )

Anyway, if God revealed himself to Ghandi, he isn't going to accept religion, he's going to accept God. Religion has nothing to do with it.


Look, you can't surrender to God without accepting one of His guides, which is described today as religion. Either you have a plea of ignorance, or you don't. Ghandi, does not have a plea of ignorance since he was aware of the messages.

This angers God, when people say they believe in Him yet reject His message (Islam, Christianity, or Judaism). These people are called the mushrikan for the last time. They don't believe in God at all. None of them do. They say they do, but they clearly reject God. The mushrikan have learned the basics of either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam but they do not surrender to that faith, instead they are decieved that they do not need religion at all.

The Qur'an in Arabic is the complete word of God, all of it written by God through the hand of Muhammad.

I don't speak for God, but the Holy Qur'an is God speaking.

Clearly, you will never get into paradise if you reject what you call "religion". Religion is hardly the word to describe something that is a reality.

Once again, infidelGOD, you say you believe in God, but are you a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew? If you are not, I am sorry, but you are mushrikan.

Faith in God can bring people to tears (of joy). Video clips of this years Hajj in Mecca showed Muslims all over the world quietly crying and praying at Holy Kabba.

In other words, you can't experience God while rejecting His messengers. Not the way true believers experience God, because unlike the mushrikan, they believe in God.

Some people just don't believe no matter what, in their heart is a sickness.


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Edited by Zahid (08/12/02 01:22 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812918 - 08/12/02 01:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

you can't surrender to God without accepting one of His guides

This is where we disagree, God can be experienced directly (though most people do benifit from "guides").

you say you believe in God, but are a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew? If you are not, I am sorry, but you are mushrikan

I was raised Christain and I consider myself a born-again Christian but my progressive theology is at odds with my religion.

In other words, you can't experience God while rejecting His message

Yes you can - God is the message. What I am rejecting is not the message, I am rejecting those people who are confusing His message (the word of God) with their message (religious dogma).


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Offlinemirrorsaw
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #812948 - 08/12/02 01:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The reality is, anyone who believes in the one God, the God who sent messages through Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses, will eventually be rewarded with Paradise.

According to the Bhagavad Gita those people who are religious and want to be rewarded with paradise will get that reward... for a time, and then they will be reincarnated back into the world.

I don't want to stereotype Muslims or Christians, but there is a tendency for many of them to be closed minded towards other religious faiths.

It's easy to think that people like that are bigoted and spiritually immature, but I think it is better to think that they are sincere people who just happen to belong to a religion that sometimes encourages it's followers to think in that way.

A poem by Rumi, a 13th century Muslim mystic (sufism)

All through eternity
Beauty unveils His exquisite form
in the solitude of nothingness;
He holds a mirror to His Face
and beholds His own beauty.
he is the knower and the known,
the seer and the seen;
No eye but His own
has ever looked upon this Universe.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #812957 - 08/12/02 01:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This is where we disagree, God can be experienced directly (though most people do benifit from "guides").

If they are Christian, Muslim, or Jew, then people can experience God on such a level that people cry out of joy. Otherwise, God is not even going to show Himself to those who reject faith. You can say the mushrikan are experiencing God, they are not. They have no faith, so God will forget about them.

What I directly experienced could not be experienced without what you call organized religion.

I was raised Christain and I consider myself a born-again Christian but my progressive theology is at odds with my religion.

So you're disillusioned with your faith. Most christians I speak with have a strong faith, and militant atheism doesn't bother them at all. Learn more about Islam then, the only religion on earth today that remains undistorted. You'll also find it difficult, if not impossible to contradict the Qur'an.

Yes you can - God is the message. What I am rejecting is not the message, I am rejecting those people who are confusing His message (the word of God) with their message (religious dogma).

Yes, people do distort the word of God revealed to His messengers. This is what Islam is for, the final message. The religion that will never change no matter how liberal and sinful the rest of the world gets.

If you reject God's message, either the highly distorted message of Jesus or Moses, or the pure message of Muhammad, you are mushrikan.

On the Day of Judgement, every human (including our friend Sclorch) will have to face God while He gives us our review. At the end of the review, God makes His judgment. If you lived your life 9000 years before christ, for example, God will judge you as ignorant and allow you to the highest place in Paradise. If you lived in today's modern world, with knowledge of faith since childhood, yet complete rejection, I imagine God will judge you as non believer and Hell is where you will abide.


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Edited by Zahid (08/12/02 01:50 PM)


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Offlinepimpadelic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813094 - 08/12/02 02:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid, If there is a hell I will see you there buddy. Until the afterlife, later


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813104 - 08/12/02 03:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

On the Day of Judgement, every human (including our friend Sclorch) will have to face God while He gives us our review. At the end of the review, God makes His judgment. If you lived your life 9000 years before christ, for example, God will judge you as ignorant and allow you to the highest place in Paradise. If you lived in today's modern world, with knowledge of faith since childhood, yet complete rejection, I imagine God will judge you as non believer and Hell is where you will abide.

Once again, I'm have to remind you that your God is a dick.
Fuck him, I'd rather burn in hell with Shaytaan. It probably won't be all that bad... if Shaytaan thinks your God sucks, too, then he'll probably hook me up with a constant flow of Duchesse de Bourgogne, snacks, and hot women. I don't think your God could top that. So it'll be too hot to wear a fine suit... so what? I dig Guayaberas (Cuban formal wear ).

BTW, you sound like you're under a lot of stress... a few beers would do you some good.
Wait... does your God allow that? I don't want you to fry in hell or anything....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Sclorch]
    #813127 - 08/12/02 03:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Once again, I'm have to remind you that your God is a dick.
Fuck him, I'd rather burn in hell with Shaytaan. It probably won't be all that bad... if Shaytaan thinks your God sucks, too, then he'll probably hook me up with a constant flow of Duchesse de Bourgogne, snacks, and hot women. I don't think your God could top that. So it'll be too hot to wear a fine suit... so what? I dig Guayaberas (Cuban formal wear ).

BTW, you sound like you're under a lot of stress... a few beers would do you some good.
Wait... does your God allow that? I don't want you to fry in hell or anything....


Hell is not the lair Shaytaan. In fact, Hell is also about complete isolation from other people. It's just you, and your punishment.

We'll see who's right, anyway. If I'm wrong, and nothing exists in the afterlife, I would have lived a peaceful existence at least.

If I'm right, well...you will be singing a completely different tune Sclorch when the song is already over.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813133 - 08/12/02 03:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In fact, Hell is also about complete isolation from other people. It's just you, and your punishment.

Fine... it'll be just me. I'm sort of a loner anyways...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813197 - 08/12/02 04:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This is what Islam is for, the final message. The religion that will never change no matter how liberal and sinful the rest of the world gets.

Yeah, you Muslims will make damn sure that the world never changes. . .




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InvisibleWe_come_in_peace
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #813225 - 08/12/02 04:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah good thing we have all you Muslims who enjoy killing innocent people for the sake of "allah".

Let me ask you something. Who gives any of your people the right to decide the fate of others? "I sentence you to a nasty ass beheading because you looked at my bearded sister", and then justify these horrible acts in the name of allah. Do you really think allah, if she is god, would want you to kill people?

If you ask me I think you're all fucked in the head



Edited by We_come_in_peace (08/12/02 04:34 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813314 - 08/12/02 05:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think Jeffrey may find himself in a situation similar to these famous believers:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/hijackers_surprised.html

pinky


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #813404 - 08/12/02 06:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

...you Muslims...

It's the clash of cultures, stupid.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: We_come_in_peace]
    #813408 - 08/12/02 06:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah good thing we have all you Muslims who enjoy killing innocent people for the sake of "allah".

Let me ask you something. Who gives any of your people the right to decide the fate of others? "I sentence you to a nasty ass beheading because you looked at my bearded sister", and then justify these horrible acts in the name of allah. Do you really think allah, if she is god, would want you to kill people?

If you ask me I think you're all fucked in the head


Do all Muslims do that? Yes or no.

pinksharkmark wrote:
I think Jeffrey may find himself in a situation similar to these famous believers
The 9-11 hijackers will burn in Hell for eternity - they all committed suicide, and all of them killed non-combatants. Jeffrey Dahmer on the other hand, repented, and was eventually murdered in prison. Only God knows, though.


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Edited by Zahid (08/12/02 07:00 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813412 - 08/12/02 06:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

On the Day of Judgement, every human (including our friend Sclorch) will have to face God while He gives us our review. At the end of the review, God makes His judgment. If you lived your life 9000 years before christ, for example, God will judge you as ignorant and allow you to the highest place in Paradise. If you lived in today's modern world, with knowledge of faith since childhood, yet complete rejection, I imagine God will judge you as non believer and Hell is where you will abide.

Zahid, since it seems very important to you to save your sorry ass from eternal damnation and that's the best argument you can seem to come up with for your religion, I've started a new thread in your honor: No Heaven, No Hell...

I await your comments.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: ]
    #813413 - 08/12/02 07:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This is gonna be fun.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813414 - 08/12/02 07:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well you've done nothing to dispell the prevailing belief that Islam is an intolerent religion. If you are promoting Islam as you claim, telling people that they are going to burn in hell is not the best way to go about it, stupid.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #813455 - 08/12/02 07:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Islam intolerant? Explain how, with quotes from the Qur'an please.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813473 - 08/12/02 07:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Islam intolerant? Explain how, with quotes from the Qur'an please.

It's not what is preached... it's what is practiced.

How many wars are Muslims fighting in RIGHT NOW?
WIth how many other religions?

It's hard to ignore such an obvious pattern.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813477 - 08/12/02 07:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Islam intolerant? Explain how, with quotes from the Qur'an please

I didn't say Islam is intolerant. I said that that was the prevailing belief (at least here in America). If you're not aware of this then you must have been living in a cave the last few years.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Sclorch]
    #813556 - 08/12/02 07:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It's not what is preached... it's what is practiced.

How many wars are Muslims fighting in RIGHT NOW?
WIth how many other religions?

It's hard to ignore such an obvious pattern.


Since you are ignorant on the subject I will explain.

You really don't have a single idea what the Muslim world has gone through in the last century.

Since the British colonized the Muslim world with the defeat of the Ottoman empire, installing anti-religious seclurist regimes who hate Islam, since Jews from Europe and Russia started invading Filistine using the Torah to justify it, since the zionazi's of Israel started killing Palestinians and taking away their land, since the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, since today's Russian government kills innocent Muslims in Chechnya, since the anti-religious Communist regime of China oppressed Islam in western China, since the Indian government has killed thousands of innocent Kashmiris, since the United States has supported Israel from Arab regimes for 53 years, since the United States imposed the embargo on Iraq during the gulf war killing thousands of Iraqis, since the United States began bombing stone age Afghanistan to the ground, killing thousands of more Muslims, since the U.S. stationed their troops on the Holy Land of Islam, since the United States began supporting oppressive Arab regimes for oil, and since the United States has transgressed greatly against the Ummah by establishing puppet regimes, the Muslim world is a little ticked off.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813578 - 08/12/02 08:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sorry about all that's happened to the Muslim world but you're situation is not unique. Many people endure such harships, such is life. Consider the blacks, Jews, American Indians, the Aztecs, Incas and many more. They didn't respond to these injustices by resorting to violence and lashing out at the world. Maybe spiritual people know that justice isn't served in this life. You do believe in final judgement don't you? Won't God punish those who have wronged you?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #813632 - 08/12/02 08:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think you are forgetting how many Muslims there are in the world today. One in five persons on this planet are Muslim. There is a small minority who lash out using religious perversion because they have no means of fighting back. Unfortunately these Muslims are misguided, and when some of them fly an air liner into a civilian building, it's done out of greed and passion not spiritual calling. And yes, God will punish those who have wronged us, but we have a right to fight against oppression in justified way (Mujahideen fighting oppressor combatants, in Bosnia for example)


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Offlineseeker
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813638 - 08/12/02 08:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You say Islam hasn't changed since the time of The Prophet, but take for example the covering of the female face, I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't in the original text, yet it is practiced nowdays by a good percentage of Muslims is it not? If you think that there has been no reinturpritation in the last 1400 years your not only naive your a fool. Yes the confinment of the Qur'an to Arabic minimalizes the erosion of the content, but you need to remember that it was copied by hand for centuries which means there was bound to be distortion of or adition to the text at times in history. If there does turn out to be some diety and he/she/it is infalable, good for him/her/it, but man is not. So, walk not blindly, least you step in another mans bullshit.




--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: seeker]
    #813658 - 08/12/02 08:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You say Islam hasn't changed since the time of The Prophet, but take for example the covering of the female face, I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't in the original text, yet it is practiced nowdays by a good percentage of Muslims is it not? If you think that there has been no reinturpritation in the last 1400 years your not only naive your a fool. Yes the confinment of the Qur'an to Arabic minimalizes the erosion of the content, but you need to remember that it was copied by hand for centuries which means there was bound to be distortion of or adition to the text at times in history. If there does turn out to be some diety and he/she/it is infalable, good for him/her/it, but man is not. So, walk not blindly, least you step in another mans bullshit.

The burqa is a Wahabi practice used in Suadi Arabia (a Law imposed by the al Saud family that has no basis in Islam) and a cultural attire in Afghanistan that was also imposed as a law by the Talibaan. Islamic Law only imposes a light scarf to cover a woman's hair.

There's a reason we know the Qur'an is unchanged. It was memorized by the very first Muslims of Muhammad's time. Abu Bakr, along with other loyal Meccans would memorize the Qur'an through the the 23 year revelation. During that time, Muhammad forbade anyone to record his own sayings (which became today's Hadit after the 23 year revelation) during the period of revelation because it might get mixed in with the Qur'an when the verses were being collected. None the less, Abu Bakr, the first caliph of Islam, made sure the Qur'an was left unaltered, and thanks to the original Muslim converts who memorized the entire Qur'an, including Muhammad's wife, the Qur'an in Arabic today is the complete word of God.


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Edited by Zahid (08/12/02 08:40 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813664 - 08/12/02 08:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I recognize your right to fight injustices as a people. But when you fight as a religion (jihad), then you are only complicating things for yourself. It is no longer a fight for justice against oppressors. It becomes a fight against Satan (in your eyes) and anything is justified (such as terrorism).

A religious war cannot be justified. In fact "religious war" is an oxymoron. Your God would not approve of you killing in His name, even if it is to fight oppression.



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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #813673 - 08/12/02 08:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You don't understand. When you attack and kill Muslims in one small part of the world, it is an attack on the entire world wide Muslim community. Jihad means to struggle in the cause of God against oppression and evil. The Muslims who fought in Bosnia, or Chechnya came from all over the world. Some from Australia and the United States even.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813688 - 08/12/02 08:54 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You don't understand. When you attack and kill Muslims in one small part of the world, it is an attack on the entire world wide Muslim community.

I understand... you're a global gang.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813693 - 08/12/02 08:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yo, man. You be attackin' one of my homies, you be attackin' all da Crips. Word!


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #813697 - 08/12/02 08:59 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In most of the secular world, there is seperation of church and state. It would be wise for the Muslim world to adopt it. (but we know those religious clerics will never give up their power.)


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Sclorch]
    #814074 - 08/13/02 04:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

It's not what is preached... it's what is practiced.

How many wars are Muslims fighting in RIGHT NOW?
WIth how many other religions?

It's hard to ignore such an obvious pattern.



If I may just add is not only Muslims, is the 3 related religions (Judea, Christian and Muslim) that make so much problem, if is up to me I will banish all of them.
But take comfort Sclorch, according to Zahid, when we go to hell you and me, we will be in the company of such grate man as Gandhi, wile he will be with brother Jeffrey Dahmer.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #814106 - 08/13/02 05:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

infidelGOD writes:

A religious war cannot be justified. In fact "religious war" is an oxymoron. Your God would not approve of you killing in His name, even if it is to fight oppression.

You are, of course, correct. For more details, see God's comments given at a rare press conference shortly after the World Trade Center attack:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/god_clarifies_dont_kill.html



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Edited by pinksharkmark (08/13/02 05:44 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Sclorch]
    #814171 - 08/13/02 06:30 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"In fact, Hell is also about complete isolation from other people. It's just you, and your punishment."

Fine... it'll be just me. I'm sort of a loner anyways...

But you'll be forced to watch endless reruns of Gilligan's Island and there is no imported beer only warm Budweiser...


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/13/02 06:35 AM)


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Swami]
    #814327 - 08/13/02 07:56 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Fine... it'll be just me. I'm sort of a loner anyways...





Don't worry Swami, all be in the cell next to you, we can play backgamon!


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: LOBO]
    #814373 - 08/13/02 08:15 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"...according to Zahid, when we go to hell you and me, we will be in the company of such grate man as Gandhi, wile he will be with brother Jeffrey Dahmer."
----------------------------------

Now that is funny!



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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Jellric]
    #814429 - 08/13/02 08:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have always found it interesting what types of people you find in fundamentalist religions. If you notice, their concept of God is that of a strict, jealous, wrathful deity- rather like a super-parental figure. They have draconian punishments and prohibitions againsts alcohol/drug use and sexual deviancy. Now why would an adult need a parent figure? I believe most of these people are children both mentally and morally and NEED that fear of punishment to stay in line. They cannot/will not control their own appetites, so the discipline must be imposed from the outside.

The way I look at it, the majority of the Islamic worshippers are right where they are supposed to be. They have bought into a faith that meets them where they are. At their level of development, this is all of God they can accept. All the Western world can do is encourage reform in their governments, and I agree with Zahid that we have all too often propped up repressive regimes to maintain stability for us to keep that fat oil pipeline open so we can continue driving our SUV's.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlineuno
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #824758 - 08/18/02 02:08 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

How about mormons? My holy document, South Park, insists that they were the correct religion.

In all seriousness, that is a much newer text of yet another prophet from god. Is John Smith wrong? If so, why? Is it at all possible that his message from god was even more complete than muhammed's?

**Edit: Joseph Smith.**


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- uno


Edited by uno (08/19/02 03:54 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #826824 - 08/18/02 10:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid, I feel that it is unfortunate that your viewpoint on God is so severely constricted by the Judeo-Christian/Anthropomorphized misconceptions about the subject.

Try looking at it this way - whatever Ghandi failed to realize in his lifetime he will have to realize in another lifetime to ever be at the paradise you call "heaven" and I call "nirvana." Call another chance to realize the ultimate truth in a new life "hell" if that suits you. I don't agree that it's the same. I would say that Jefrrey Dahmer's last life was probably what you would refer to as hell.

To believe all Christian dogma is to be extremely controlled by those who seek just that - to control. Besides, what the church says changes as time goes on. Do you look back 500 years and think, yeah, they were all fucked up then but now they have it exactly right.

Here's an example of some main faults with Christian religions: My little sister was converted to Presbytarianism at a Christian summer camp. Both her and I were raised with Catholic overtones but our parents are very liberal and always taught us to be open minded and to seek our own path. For the moment, my sister seems to have lost that ability, but that's another story. I mentioned to my sister that her church had changed it's official posistion around 30 years ago and redefined hell as "the state of seperation from God" instead of some theoretical firepit where you burn forever. "No," she corrects me. "The Catholic church redefined it to that, not my church." "So you beleive in a theoretical firepit forever if you don't find God in this life?" "Yes," she says.

Now think about this. Presbytarianism came straight out of Catholicism, it drew almost the whole religion from it as far as I know. If Catholicism had had itself figured out 500 years ago, Presbytarianism would have the same dogmatic belief. But because of chronological flukes and fragmentation of one main idea and so forth, she had arrived at her current belief. It's all from what someone is telling her to believe.

But that is all good and fine with me. She may not have the open minded view that I wish she did, but through her actions she is living just fine. So if her "sect" of Christianity disagrees with yours, I don't give a shit she still is going to "heaven" as you understand it, I'd just say the next life to move onto newer lessons. Just like Ghandi did.

Start asking questions, use logic, intuition, you are human which makes you quite smart and able to reason, so use yourself to find the truth rather than just taking what someone else tell's you to believe and swallowing it whole.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #830622 - 08/20/02 04:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I really can't read without responding at this point. I am not criticizing Islam by this, and if you think that I am, then you are assuming that you are a true representative of Islam as a whole. You are obviously quite new to religion, and you are hanging so literally to doctrines that you sound as though Life itself can be reduced to a number of spiritual laws. Intellectual constructs about heavens and hells abound in every faith - they are to be taken 'with a grain of salt.' Hierarchies of spiritual beings differ even within a given religion, for example. Heavens and hells are not about duration, but about intensity and eternity. These constructs are intended to convey both the reality of atemporal domains, and to instruct humans to live in such a way as to develop (simply speaking) into a being of Compassion, not into a being of Rage.

I for one do not believe in deathbed conversions, or in 'getting religion' behind bars for the most part. Verbal confessions and professions are NOT magical formulas that absolve or expunge the being that one is. You are youthfully naive to account such things as true. Magical thinking is a psychological term, not in any way connected with occultism or mystery. When the magical thinking of youth is not transcended, it may simply develop into a common and culturally accepted delusion about 'how spiritual things work.' One becomes older, but one does not mature in one's faith. If you want to believe that demon-possessed Jeffrey lost his demon, and returned to God in a pristine, forgiven condition; while Mahatma (Great Soul) Gandhi was damned and doomed because of some doctrine construed by fundamentalist Muslim theologians - that is your choice and society's problem.

Gandhi lived and died a Hindu. He knew the Bible, but remained a Hindu. His dying word was "Ram!," - God! - as an assassin's bullet murdered him; and this utterance is believed as proof to many millions of Hindu's that Gandhi was right there in the Present - in the Presence - of God, the moment that he died. That moment-to-moment awareness of God is the Truth in any religion - NOT some contrived theological construct, the violation of which supposedly insults Almighty God. You want to keep that same Muslim-Hindu war going after all these centuries by your attempt to lay your own fundamentalist doctrines on a man of another faith. That makes you a religious bigot, not a righteous man. That makes you some kind of robot, not a free man. Children love to wave swords, or scimitars, as the case may be. Hopefully you'll learn in time that 'Submission' to God means humility and respect before the Holy in other people's faiths; as well a truer understanding of the evil that men do and become.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #830926 - 08/20/02 07:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

MarkostheGnostic,

So, you believe Ghandi is in Heaven? I respect your viewpoint, but I disagree with what you are calling fundamentalism. I would like to encourage you to read Qur'an, and what it says. Both our faiths talk about hypocrites, disbelief, repentence, and Hell. While you believe it is demons who possess evil people, I believe it is subconcious refuge in shaytaan that these people take. Yes, you believe Jeffrey Dahmer is in Hell, even though he believed Jesus Christ was his saviour, and repented to Allah for his crimes. No, Jeff Dahmer won't get off the hook that easy. Surely he will spend time in Hell to purify the evil from him. He was after all, attracted to cadavers. Are you claiming Islam is fundamentalist as a whole? Islam clearly states disbelievers and hypocrites will be lost in the Fire forever. It also says those who believe in Allah, will enter Paradise. There is a verse in the Qur'an that clearly states those who follow the teachings of Jesus, Moses, or Muhammad will have nothing to fear on the day of judgement. In my eyes, there is no true fundamentalism. You seem to see me believing the Qur'an is 100% accurate as fundamentalism. You have a different perception, but Ghandi was a hypocrite and a disbeliever. His idea of God was a perverse one. He was a good man, he could have earned himself many rewards if he believed in God's messengers. I don't know if Jeffrey Dahmer was truly sorry, but if he was, I'm confident God would forgive Him because God loves to forgive His children in the physical world, and you should know that.

To be perfectly honest with you, our opinions are clashing because we are members of faiths that are also clashing as we speak.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #831375 - 08/20/02 09:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Zahid, I'm pretty sure that not every muslim would repeatedly smack away the olive branch as you have done.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #831863 - 08/21/02 03:19 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Since you do not know anything about the faith of Mohandas Gandhi, you are not in any way capable of evaluating it, let alone passing judgement on the man. The contradiction you made, that Gandhi had a perverse idea of God, but was a good man, is testimony enough to your illogic. One's goodness derives from one's spiritual nature, which in turn derives from God.

You do not read with any accuracy. I attributed YOUR description to Dahmer as demon-possession, not mine. Your attribution to the "subconscious," is your own construct, not a Qur'anic one. Moreover, as a fundamentalist, you don't realize that you are one. You merely unconsciously project your adopted world-view on everyone AS IF it is the norm for everyone. You have not come to terms with the plurality and relativity of Mankind's religious views about the ONE GOD.

Learn not to read or apprehend scriptures like a pilot's flight manual. Life does not operate 'by the numbers,' and robots have foraken the freedom, and therefore the essential Godliness that God has bestowed on Mankind. Our views do not clash because I am a Jewish Christian and you a Muslim. Our views clash because I Realize the Word of God in Spirit and in Truth - in my each and every breath and heartbeat - in my human life which is sustained moment-to-moment by God. You have placed a paper bundle with inked words before the very Life that you have of God. Bibliolatry with any Scripture is still Idolatry - Shirk. Only a blatant materialist would fail to realize that the Books are outward manifestations of inward and invisible Truth. You are not a book; neither will you become a book after death of the body. Neither is God a book. Neither are non-temporal realms of Paradise and Perdition books. Reality is not a 'thing.'

Worst of all is religious bigotry - Muslim, Christian or anything else. Worship God in your own way, but pass no judgement on other men. That is God's prerogative, not yours. You have become as brainwashed as any other generation of militant fundamentalists - creators of jihads and crusades. You have become ego-inflated by your new-found faith; identified with an archetype from the collective unconscious of the 'righteous warrior for God,' in a Muslim tradition. The same pathological inflation from the same archetype afflicts Christians, Jews and all others who have behaved in the manner of a warlike conquerer. How dare you continue to perpetuate bigotry and hatefulness in your generation!? How 'big' of you to assure me that I am OK with God - by the standards of YOUR faith! AS IF I required assurance from outside my own faith stance for that knowledge. You can't even see how inflated your own point of view is, because you are in this huge psychological blind-spot. Better to conform to the image of a man prostrated on his prayer rug before Almighty God, than seeing himself as an Almighty Warrior on horseback. You need a radical ego-adjustment my friend.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #832288 - 08/21/02 08:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yea! what he said!

you are inspiring, Markos


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #833537 - 08/21/02 03:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Since you do not know anything about the faith of Mohandas Gandhi, you are not in any way capable of evaluating it, let alone passing judgement on the man. The contradiction you made, that Gandhi had a perverse idea of God, but was a good man, is testimony enough to your illogic. One's goodness derives from one's spiritual nature, which in turn derives from God.

I do know Mohandas Gandhi was a Hindu, and I do know that one of the beliefs in Hinduism is that if you live this life doing good, the next life on earth will be better. Yes, he was a righteous, good man. But once again, his deeds are not worth anything because he died in disbelief. The Qur'an has made it clear, several times through out the book, that disbelief in Allah's Messengers is deception, and Disbelievers await the Fire as their refuge. When I preach, I preach the truth. I'm not going to sugar code it to the kufr that Hindus or Buddhists go to Heaven because they are righteous. I explain to them the aspect of being judged ignorant as well, if you never recieve the word of God. I use Gandhi as an example often, how your good deeds are worthless if you die in disbelief. I use Jeffrey Dahmer as an example of how Merciful Allah is. But you don't see it, I suppose.

One's goodness derives from one's spiritual nature, which in turn derives from God.

Explain this more clearly.

You do not read with any accuracy. I attributed YOUR description to Dahmer as demon-possession, not mine. Your attribution to the "subconscious," is your own construct, not a Qur'anic one. Moreover, as a fundamentalist, you don't realize that you are one. You merely unconsciously project your adopted world-view on everyone AS IF it is the norm for everyone. You have not come to terms with the plurality and relativity of Mankind's religious views about the ONE GOD.

Quick to judge, are we? I project my view on everyone because it is the truth, I love debating with atheist intellectuals, and the Spirituality forum on the Shroomery is the proper place to do so. You should note, I have four close friends who are Christian, and three who absolutely hate religion.

Learn not to read or apprehend scriptures like a pilot's flight manual. Life does not operate 'by the numbers,' and robots have foraken the freedom, and therefore the essential Godliness that God has bestowed on Mankind. Our views do not clash because I am a Jewish Christian and you a Muslim. Our views clash because I Realize the Word of God in Spirit and in Truth - in my each and every breath and heartbeat - in my human life which is sustained moment-to-moment by God. You have placed a paper bundle with inked words before the very Life that you have of God. Bibliolatry with any Scripture is still Idolatry - Shirk. Only a blatant materialist would fail to realize that the Books are outward manifestations of inward and invisible Truth. You are not a book; neither will you become a book after death of the body. Neither is God a book. Neither are non-temporal realms of Paradise and Perdition books. Reality is not a 'thing.'

Once again you are quick to judge, going so far as to saying I am associating partners with God. For some reason you think I actually worship the Qur'an, instead of God. Are you listening to yourself? Reality is not a book of course, but the book I speak of, the Holy Qur'an is the complete word of God. All Muslims know this is true because of the obvious history of Islam. If you are claiming my belief is shirk, then you must be claiming everyone of the ummah (the world's Muslims) has a shirk belief, and to me, that is fundamentalism.


Worst of all is religious bigotry - Muslim, Christian or anything else. Worship God in your own way, but pass no judgement on other men. That is God's prerogative, not yours. You have become as brainwashed as any other generation of militant fundamentalists - creators of jihads and crusades. You have become ego-inflated by your new-found faith; identified with an archetype from the collective unconscious of the 'righteous warrior for God,' in a Muslim tradition. The same pathological inflation from the same archetype afflicts Christians, Jews and all others who have behaved in the manner of a warlike conquerer. How dare you continue to perpetuate bigotry and hatefulness in your generation!? How 'big' of you to assure me that I am OK with God - by the standards of YOUR faith! AS IF I required assurance from outside my own faith stance for that knowledge. You can't even see how inflated your own point of view is, because you are in this huge psychological blind-spot. Better to conform to the image of a man prostrated on his prayer rug before Almighty God, than seeing himself as an Almighty Warrior on horseback. You need a radical ego-adjustment my friend.

How dare you forbid me to preach the truth. And I am fundamentalist because I believe in armed resistance against oppression? Mohammed Atta was a fundamentalist, I am not. Fundamentalist Muslims believe Christians and Jews go to Hell, I do not. Fundamentalists believe blowing yourself up is not suicide. Fundamentalists believe all Israelis are legitmate to kill because they recieved military training by the IDF. This is fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is interpreting a religion your own way to justify whatever ill actions you wish to carry out.

You need a radical ego-adjustment my friend.

I should say the same thing, but I won't.


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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #834038 - 08/21/02 07:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

When I preach, I preach the truth

Ok so now you are one of god's chosen messengers of truth instead of some silly little canuck with a library card. I see.

hey mohammed, on your way to heaven try not to hijack any planes...


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #836067 - 08/22/02 02:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have long known that it was useless to talk with fundamentalist Christians, and thought that I would enjoin reason to speak to a fundamentalist (though you deny this and attribute fundamentalism to fanatical and pathological parties alone) Muslim. It is a lesson for me. It is useless in your tradition as well.

For your information, rebirth, transmigration can be found among Muslim Sufis; among early Christianity; among Jewish Kabbalism and of course in the East. You are stuck in EXOTERIC religious form, and until you are able to pierce the veils which cover the Holy Mysteries of your faith, you will never pass into the ESOTERIC Knowledge that will free you from your own religio-centric perversion. As Murshid Sam Lewis once said, "I have no questions, but all the answers."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #836142 - 08/22/02 03:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

rebirth, transmigration can be found among Muslim Sufis

Interesting. Can you point me in the direction of some info about the Sufi's in question.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirror_saw]
    #836415 - 08/22/02 05:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Pir Vilayat - The Chisti Order. A book entitled 'Toward the One,' which is unfortunately out of print, but Excellent in picture and word. But, more useful than Indian adoption of transmigration are the writings or histories of Islamic mystics such as al-Ghazzali and al-Hallaj (whose hands and feet were amputated before he was crucified for stating "I am the Truth" - a parallel experience which his accusers rightly associated with Jesus, and so levelled a parallel punishment. Well, after all , he was guilty of shirk - of association of his deep Self with God - had to kill 'im).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #836585 - 08/22/02 06:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sadly, you do not believe the Qur'an is the complete, unchanged word of God and that is why you view me as a fundamentalist. But I am still pondering what you said earlier regarding Gandhi:

One's goodness derives from one's spiritual nature, which in turn derives from God.

What are you implying by this belief and its relation to Gandhi?

It is a lesson for me. It is useless in your tradition as well.

Egoist.

We are both believers, but you obviously have no tolerance for the Islamic faith. I think you are the fundamentalist. God knows what real fundamentalism is, if such a thing exists. As far as we both know, both of us could be fundamentalists. Would you like me to refer you to web-site on Islamic history on why the Qur'an is supposed to be trusted as the final word from God? Perhaps learning more about the Muslim faith you can learn appreciate the union that we share in worshipping the Creator. Currently I am attending a Bible study with a good friend once a week to learn more about the Christian faith.

God will clarify the truth to everyone on the Day of Judgement. We both believe in the One God, why do you continue to isolate yourself from Islam? I'm not preaching it to you, but encouraging you to learn more about it. Read the Qur'an even, there is alot of wisdom behind the text that was never changed since the time of Muhammad and the first caliph, Abu Bakr.


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OfflineDanimal
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #837036 - 08/22/02 10:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You need a radical ego-adjustment my friend.

I should say the same thing, but I won't.

"I hate you"
"The feeling is mutual"
Both people hate each other, only one uttered "I hate you".


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #837235 - 08/23/02 03:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

shalom markos
salaam zahid
greetings all...
did sufi sam really say that? hmm, i sometimes say: i don't have a lot of answers, but i have some really good questions...
i suppose there's a seeker born every minute...
per the sufis... well many sufi beliefs will be viewed as heterodoxy by most muslims (and no doubt most christians & jews...) even as they visit shrines of past "muslim saints" as holy men --- no doubt whose views could cause them to be executed as heretics in some regimes...
didn't dr harshaw & dr mahmoud say something about some concepts that were obvious in arabic that couldn't be expressed in english (this in a discussion of martian language, & young mr smith's attempt to tell his water brothers properly "thou art god"...)(well, well touchstone fiction...)
well... i must agree with markos that deathbed or deathrow conversions always seem a little... suspect... but then, i am only human...
isn't there a sufi story about a seeker after truth being shown 3 groups of people... the first miserable from want of heaven, the second miserable for fear of hell, and the third radiant with the love of god...
let him with ears hear...
namaste
/gnrmi


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #837592 - 08/23/02 08:15 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well... i must agree with markos that deathbed or deathrow conversions always seem a little... suspect...

If I remember correctly, the Quran said they were bullshit too...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #837943 - 08/23/02 11:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Greetings friend. Yeah, that is from 'Toward the One.' Acually, included in that sentence is the statement that 'My I.Q. is exactly 50. I have...' Of course, an accurately measured I.Q. of 50 would make him seriously mentally handicapped. I suppose that the "answers" he was referring to were an inner knowledge - a gnosis, if you will, in which Murshid was 'informed' inwardly by God. Of corse, this sounds a lot like associating partners, or shirk, if human knowledge is confounded with Divine 'substance.' I wasn't suggesting that 'I,' had all the answers, and no questions (I hope you didn't read it that way). I have many answers to a few important questions. The difficulty is discerning the 'invariant features' common to those answers and treating those invariant features as Universal Truth by which to live. Shalom.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838041 - 08/23/02 11:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In fact, I purchased a copy of the Qur'an (your spelling, BTW, which I have been using, if you check back, out of reverence for the book, and respect for your more accurate rendering in English) back in 1978 when I was still in a Christian seminary. I am not isolated from Islam, and I have had Muslim friends, students and acquaintances from Turkey, Egypt and Nigeria to name a few. The regard for your Book as the final Word from God is a matter of faith, not fact. Faith clearly commands more influence over human history than does fact. It is clear that the Qur'an is an original piece, not written by Muhammed, but preserved unchanged over the centuries; it is also the most recently written (as opposed to "final") scriptural Book in the history of Western religion.

I believe that you are in fact preaching; not teaching. Teachers wait for students to appear and ask questions. Preachers lay it on the people - solicited or unsolicited.
I understand the uncompromising Monotheism of Islam, both as a corrective to, and a unifying factor among the numerous bedouin tribes and their polytheisms. I also see Islam as a reaction to the growing Catholic 'Christian' Church with its misunderstood Doctrine of the Trinity (misunderstood by Judaism and Islam) and its own seeming pantheon of saints. Neither Jews, or Jesus and His followers knew of a Trinity, and this was a psychological development out of Hellenism far more than a statement about an ontological division in the Utter Unity of God. I am clearly not fundamentalist by this very assertion. Only Gentile Christians with deep roots in pagan and polytheistic histories can claim that God is Three. The Latin formula is "Una Substantia, Tres Personas," One Substance, Three Persons." I have studied this paradox much since 1976, and have done my best (sometimes successfully) to explain this doctrine to Muslims. From Tertullian, the originator of the term, through Augustine to modern day theologian John MacQuarrie, who has probably done the best rendering of the idea.

As to my assertion on Gandhi: we humans have a nature, regardless of what our beliefs are. I see that nature by way of an ancient model that views us as a tripartite being of body-mind-spirit. Many people have seen it thusly, from Plato to Paul to artist Alex Grey! The spirit is the most mysterious and least able to be analyzed, because it transcends the analytical mind. It is non-substantial, and without extension in space-time, like mind, but spirit as I see it is eternal in it's nature and in that sense partakes of the Divine's "image and likeness" in Man. Humans are 'beings,' not mere animals. God is not 'a being,' but the 'Very Ground of Being.' This is not to say that our 'spirit' is identical to the Spirit which is God, but as 'beings,' we draw our existence from the Ground of Being. We can choose to become increasingly aware of our spiritual nature, or remain identified with our bodies and minds. We can even feign morality by parroting 'good behaviors,' but this is no real morality. Real morality is the outward actions that flow from Compassion. You will agree, from every Sura in the Qur'an, that 'Allah is the Merciful; the Compassionate.' We partake of the Divine nature insofar as we are truly Compassionate. This is what I meant with regard to Mohandas Gandhi.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838055 - 08/23/02 11:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am a little confused.
Since when do muslims quote the bible and say christians
are going to heaven.Sounds like you are picking and choosing the part you like
about each religion.


Edited by 905 (08/23/02 11:58 AM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirror_saw]
    #838067 - 08/23/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well... i must agree with markos that deathbed or deathrow conversions always seem a little... suspect...

If I remember correctly, the Quran said they were bullshit too...


I believe that's correct. Same goes with terminal illness. The moment you gain knowledge that you are going to die, any conversion is generally void and they die a kufr. Prison conversion (life sentence, for example) is different though. In the case of Jeffrey Dahmer, he was serving a life sentence and had no knowledge of his coming death when Christopher Scarver killed him.


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Edited by Zahid (08/23/02 11:58 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838110 - 08/23/02 12:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

You don't understand. When you attack and kill Muslims in one small part of the world, it is an attack on the entire world wide Muslim community. Jihad means to struggle in the cause of God against oppression and evil. The Muslims who fought in Bosnia, or Chechnya came from all over the world. Some from Australia and the United States even.





Does this also mean when one muslim attacks the united states that all muslims
attack the united states?Should we declare all muslims as our enemy?
Should muslim americans hate themselves?


Edited by 905 (08/23/02 12:16 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: ]
    #838116 - 08/23/02 12:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am a little confused.
Since when do muslims quote the bible and say christians
are going to heaven.Sounds like you are picking and choosing the part you like
about each religion.

We don't quote the Bible. Most Muslims have never read the Bible. When I say Christians and Jews go to heaven, it is based off this verse in the Holy Qur'an:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an),
Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures),
And the Sabians and the Christians-
Any who believe in Allah
And the Last Day,
And work righteousness-
On them shall be no fear,
Nor shall they greieve.


5:69

I have great respect for Christians and Jews, the Qur'an commands us to be kind to them.

Does this also mean when one muslim attacks the united states that all muslims
attack the united states?Should we declare all muslims as our enemy?
Should muslim americans hate themselves?


No. This is a fundamentalist idea that has no basis in Islam. Allah is well aware that some of His slaves think they are doing good in the world when they are actually doing evil.


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Edited by Zahid (08/23/02 12:20 PM)


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #838578 - 08/23/02 05:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In fact, I purchased a copy of the Qur'an (your spelling, BTW, which I have been using, if you check back, out of reverence for the book, and respect for your more accurate rendering in English) back in 1978 when I was still in a Christian seminary. I am not isolated from Islam, and I have had Muslim friends, students and acquaintances from Turkey, Egypt and Nigeria to name a few. The regard for your Book as the final Word from God is a matter of faith, not fact. Faith clearly commands more influence over human history than does fact. It is clear that the Qur'an is an original piece, not written by Muhammed, but preserved unchanged over the centuries; it is also the most recently written (as opposed to "final") scriptural Book in the history of Western religion.

Based on what is fact in this world (basically, science), no Muslim could ever prove the Qur'an is the final word of God, if it was done the world would be a different place indeed. This goes back to my arguement with kufr about the logic behind faith. The logic behind the faith that the Qur'an is the final word of God is based on the Qur'an itself; the miracle that it has not been changed since the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The faith Muslims have that it is unchanged since Muhammad's time is based on recorded Islamic history/Arabian histpry, since the days of Jahiliyya Arabia to modern day Saudi Arabia, and the current Muslim ummah. Just as you have faith in the aspect of trinity, Muslims have faith the Qur'an is the final word of God, wherein Allah states that He is not three, but one. Considering the faith of every believer is based off the teachings of a prophet, the world around them, and their experiencing of the reality God, there will always be conflict and clashing of beliefs within the world wide community of those who worship and repent to the one, true God. One thing we do know for sure, is that God will set the record straight.

I believe that you are in fact preaching; not teaching. Teachers wait for students to appear and ask questions. Preachers lay it on the people - solicited or unsolicited.

Yes, I do preach in the Spirituality and Philosophy forum when it persists. In my day to day real life, I do not preach my beliefs to others because I understand some people will never believe. Here on the Shroomery, there are a fair amount of intelligent kufr who either preach against religion or debate with a believer who is preaching his beliefs. I enjoy an in depth debate with a nonbeliever. Often in the perils of debate (induced or not induced by online preaching) you think of something you wouldn't have otherwise as you attempt to contradict the unbeliever who is attempting to contradict you. Since I live in the west, I am overjoyed to speak with tolerant Christians of all ages on the topic of religion and faith. Yesterday I had a very interesting conversation with a Christian co-worker of mine on the topic of Elvis Aaron Presley...she discussed the religious side of Elvis, how his mother was religious, and how Elvis was definately searching for peace in the last years of his life. She hoped Elvis found whatever he was looking for, and she hoped he made peace with God. While it's difficult to describe this old woman, her tolerance of my Islamic faith truly inspires me to seek more contact with those who worship God. You have made it clear you are tolerant of my faith, I apologize for my misunderstanding. But still, to assume I am a fundamentalist because I believe the Qur'an is the complete, final word of God unadulterated (a belief that every Muslim shares) sounds a little off the radar to me. You may see the preaching as negative, but someone who is not even involved in the debate, someone who may not even be a registered user, may read my posts, see the in depth arguement of mine, and by chance, become a believer. The only chance I get to present some of these arguement on the logic behind faith are often in debate with a hard line atheist (who also presents his arguement intelligently, and logically). In regards to Gandhi, thank you for clarifying what you meant. For Christians, their goal of morality is the example of Christ, while for Muslims, it is the example of Muhammad.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838870 - 08/23/02 07:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The early writings of the bible, portray human darkness as Lucifer, a fallen angel who was originally sent to lead humans astray in order that they may find God's love (read Scott Peck's The Road Less Traveled I think there is a thread in there regarding this literary interpertation) Lucifer ultimately defied God when He decided so send His Son, Jesus to show how this path to God is followed, by a human.
I like that you are willing to gain (positively) from something so tradgic as a life like J. Dahmer, but rather than compare him to others in a judgement sense, I prefer to think of how INDIVIDUAL something like salvation can be to every person, no matter what has happened in their past.
All the same, in this instance and many others like it, I'd prefered those innocent victims had the same chance at a life beyond their mistake of encountering a monster such as him. I also have some reservations about some of facts regarding his life in prison. I believe that sometimes this type of interpertation of horrific events, is an excuse for people that do such deeds. They then justify these deeds in such a way as though they performed some act of or for God. I believe that many of these people are unrepentive and evil, to their last breath, which doesn't come soon enough.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: GRTUD]
    #838906 - 08/23/02 07:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I like that you are willing to gain (positively) from something so tradgic as a life like J. Dahmer, but rather than compare him to others in a judgement sense, I prefer to think of how INDIVIDUAL something like salvation can be to every person, no matter what has happened in their past.

I agree with you here, I use Mr. Dahmer as an example that some people don't see the light until the whispers of Satan completely corrupt a person. That is why there is Hell. But Jeffrey Dahmer also believed, so he will eventually get to Paradise. God only knows how long he will spend in Hell for the 17 young men he murdered out of lust. Jeffrey Dahmer has a very warped soul, but the purpose of the Fire is to also purify the wicked believers.

Out of curiousity, what are your thoughts about Dahmer's last years and his conversion to Christianity?


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838934 - 08/23/02 07:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I really can't say for sure, just that I would have believed the conversion more real if he had made a leap of faith sooner and turned himself in before being caught (I don't know if he did or didn't). It isn't up to me to make a judgement on his soul though, only God knows for sure. As a human, I don't have to measure him by any other fact than his deeds on earth. God can asses his inner workings like his own suffering, feelings, etc. My only responsibility is to protect myself, my family, my world, against people like him, in the flesh. God can sort the rest out.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: GRTUD]
    #839062 - 08/23/02 08:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I really can't say for sure, just that I would have believed the conversion more real if he had made a leap of faith sooner and turned himself in before being caught (I don't know if he did or didn't). It isn't up to me to make a judgement on his soul though, only God knows for sure. As a human, I don't have to measure him by any other fact than his deeds on earth. God can asses his inner workings like his own suffering, feelings, etc. My only responsibility is to protect myself, my family, my world, against people like him, in the flesh. God can sort the rest out.

Could not have said it better myself.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #840063 - 08/24/02 09:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You write well, Zahid, but you read perhaps too quickly, and misunderstand. If you read my post again, you will see that I relegate the doctrine of the Trinity to Man's subjectively psychological symbolism of God, not to God's objective Real Nature. Shema Y'srael, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Echod - Hear O Israel, the LORD thy God, the LORD is One. Tertullian, the theologian, 'designed' the term Trinity based upon the Names of God used in the New Testament writings: "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit [alt. "Ghost"]. He, and others after him were determined to create a doctrine that impacted the psyche of Man so that God was not apprehended, as a modern woman once stated, a "an infinite sea of grey tapioca." That a living dynamism exists eternally in the Godhead, the number three (using the tool of Jungian psychology) suggests such a dynamism. A tringle is dynamic, for example, while a square - a quaternity - denotes balance and stability. Twoness is too blatently dualistic and perhaps both Pagan, Zoroastrian, Manichean; and simple Oneness - while Ultimately True - is incomprehensible and the unenlightened human mind receives the idea as completely inert, lifeless, abstract. A dynamically 'Divine Economia' was intended to suggest the Eternally Living God, who IS Love - but Love exists in relationship, hence there must be at least two poles between which Love can transpire. Because of the Three Divine Names, a Tri-Unity was evolved.

Notice that angelic beings such as the Ophanim - the wheels within wheels that are covered in eyes, of Ezekiel's vision should be taken as a 'vision' not as a physical reality; and the vision is pregnant with symbolism such as the wheel as a symbol for eternity, and two wheels intersected in perpendicular planes - rotating wheels covered with eyes - would symbolize omniscience. Please understand that Trinitarian thought, at the high level that is intended, operates on this subjectively psychic pole of the human, BUT the concretistic thinking of most people tends to be literal. The Threeness was projected from the psychic subjective plane of the human psyche onto Deity Himself. Jews would not have come to this formulation. Greeks, with a history of polytheism in their collective unconscious came up with this. I understand this, and though I may pray IN THE NAMES of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I do not believe that God is anything but a "Superessential Unity" (Dionysus the Areopagite). There are other Names for Allah - The Merciful and The Compassionate being the most well known. Does this imply a 'Allah-Merciful-Compassionate' trinity? Of course not. The analytical mind has long attempted to explain Ultimate Reality. While this is fascinating to me as a psychologist of religion, it is ultimately absurd to attempt to apprehend Infite God by finite, linear rational mind. Ridiculous. The whole matter should be humbly regarded as the Incomprehensible Mystery that it is - worshipped, not understood - humbly submitted to, not explained.

The equivalence you have made between Jesus and Muhammed is not accurate. The salvific element in Christianity is a 'personality,' in Islam it is 'the Book.' Christ is the Mystery, Incarnate - a human life so suffused by the Divine Influence that He becomes, for all intent and purpose (if not in actual 'substance' like the Catholics maintained) the Divine Will on Earth. That same degree of Divine Will is embodied in the Qur'an in Islam, not in the Prophet. Similarly, in Judaism, it is the Torah, not the Lawgiver Moses, that embodies the Divine Will. All of these can be viewed from an outer, exoteric perspective, or they can be viewed from an inner esoteric perspective - which is the gnostic approach. Even though these persons and events have manifested in the outer world historically, they are multidimensional and exist in the inner, invisible realms of psyche and spirit as well as in matter. The physical man Jesus, or the original tablets of stone upon which Moses was supposed to have inscribed the Law, are not the aspects of thoses things which effect my psyche and spirit. The words are vehicles that convey the IDEAS, but that is the psychic realm. The IDEAS, while sacred, must still only guide me to the REALITY about which the IDEAS only point to. The REALITY is GOD. The outer Words, received by my material ears are conveyed to my psyche which in turn attracts and directs my consciousness to the spirit - that aspect of our nature that can 'interface' with the Divine. Remember, 'God is closer to us than our Jugular vein.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #840146 - 08/24/02 10:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

you will see that I relegate the doctrine of the Trinity to Man's subjectively psychological symbolism of God, not to God's objective Real Nature.

I have considered it possible that the trinity was a statement about the nature of the connection between the absolute and it's creation. Perhaps in opposition to the view of some that the world is evil and only the "self" is pure. That the incarnation and physical resurrection represent the sanctification of the world as being divine. That creation is good and human divergence by free will is the only evil. The world is not seen as a prison to be escaped from. A denial of strict asceticism and the inherent pessimistic outlook on the nature of reality. A philosophical viewpoint that although God is beyond and apart from creation... the trinity represents the connection between the absolute and it's creation in a positive way. Perhaps representing more than merely a psychological need for something to grasp?

(just an idea - and I'm sure you are aware of another possible reason for the doctrine of physical resurrection.)


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #840164 - 08/24/02 10:37 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

While I don't know much about Christianity and its history, I am more than open minded to learn. My Christian friends also present to me that God is three in one. When did Trinity became accepted? As for interfaith dialogue, Islam does not support Trinity because of the traditional Islamic belief that Allah has no son, and that the Holy Spirit is a nick name for the angel Gabriel. As you suggest, a theologian came up with the term Trinity, which then established the Trinity belief in Christianity? And do Christians in general believe that God is three in one, rather then viewing Trinity as simple names for the Lord?

You're correct about the other names of Allah, there are 99 beautiful names to describe Allah's attributes. The common two of the ninety nine are the Merciful and the Compassionate, which are presented at the start of each chapter in the Holy Qur'an - In the name of Allah, the Merciful the Compassionate. You probably know this, though. When I made the reference to Jesus and Muhammad, I compared them as moral examples. Someone here once said (I can't remember if it was you, or enter) something about Christians becoming 'Christlike' in morality as an example, this reminded me of the Islamic example to take the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a role model. Of course, the Prophets (peace be upon them all) were without sin, such a thing very impossible for the average believer to achieve, since we all listen to the whispers of Satan once in awhile. And I see you've been reading some Hadiths.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #840303 - 08/24/02 12:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"The Christian community believed that God, who had created heaven and earth, had become incarnate in a particular man and that furthermore he still dwelt with the community and guided it. This, we may say, was the narrative or mythological expression of their faith, and like us, they looked for an alternative interpretive language that would express the same faith in a different way. They came up with the trinitarian formula."

"[T]he Christian community could not get along with the single word 'God' as his key word. A richer and fuller experience of deity demanded a more complex symbol for its expression. The Christian could not go along with a stark monotheism in which God is utterly transcendent and sovereign, and still less witha pantheism in which God is entirely and universally immanent; he could not embrace a monism in which all differences are swallowed up in the eternal unity of God, but still less a pluralism like that of the world of polytheism with its 'many gods and many lords.'"

"Thus we may say that the doctrine of the Trinity tries to elucidate the picture of God as he appears in the Biblical narrative and in the history of the Christian community. He is a God who embraces diversity in unity; who is both transcendent and immanent; who is dynamic and yet has stability...The unity of God is expressed in his one 'substance' or 'essence.' No person of the Trinity is any less God than the others; in particular, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not demigods or intermediaries, subordinate to the Father. They are all one in respect to the Godhead...If the unity of God is expressed in terms of 'substance, his trinity or diversity is conveyed by the talk of 'persons.' Everyone knows that the word 'person' at that time when these formulations were being made in the early Church did not bear the same meaning that it has nowadays, of a conscious center of experience. It had in fact a much more shadowy meaning, and perhaps the wiser course is to leave the meaning shadowy."

"But while these remarks may to some extent defend the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, it will be said of the formula of one substance and three persons constitutes an interpretation that has ceased to communicate, for it talks the language and moves in the universe of discourse of an obsolete philosophy. This does not mean, however, that the formula is to be rejected. Especially if it does indeed conceal within itself essential Christian insights, what is required is a new act of interpretation that will interpret in a contemporary language this ancient and hallowed formula of the Church, just as it in tuen had interpreted the mythological and historical material that lies behind it."

The above passages are from 'Principles of Christian Theology' by John MacQuarrie. He elucidates the 3 Persons in terms of Primordial Being (Father), Expressive Being (Son) and Unitive Being (Holy Spirit), as eternal 'modes' of the Godhead. This however is rather advance Christian theology, and suitable for discussion only after the basics are familiarized. I hope the above is instructive.

Tertullian wrote at the end of the second century.



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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #840435 - 08/24/02 01:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


Alright, let's waste some more of my brain power.

Jeffrey Dahmer ultimately became a Christian after his arrest. Not five years into his sentence or 20 years into his sentence, but directly after the madness when he was sent to prison. He read the Bible on a daily basis until one day, a schizophrenic man killed him in Prison around two years after his conversion. After his death, Jeffrey Dahmer's father also became a Christian, as did Jeff's older brother. Jeffrey Dahmer, unlike most serial killers, had a conscience, that's why he turned to the LORD in search of forgiveness.


No news to me that people can find redemption. I have read cases of prisoners turning to Buddha. I felt it was a great irony that these people find eventual and final solace in one of the most dreary and freedom-restricted environment. That's it. I don't go around praising the power of Buddha. I've done it one instance only and realized it's a pitiful mistake to indulgently revere Buddha.

Speaking of which, your zealous reverence is becoming quite insulting by comparing Ghandi to Dahmer.

I can describe in words, but it's like this... when you seek refuge with the Creator, you experience true peace in your heart. The more you remember God, the more peaceful you are. You also see through every deception that leads one to disbelieve when you surrender your will to God.

You speak from *only* your beliefs ~ blindly assuming that anyone embracing your beliefs -> Islam -> Allah, will find what you have found. The tone of your wording gives the impression: you've already believed strongly in your own mind that your divine 'experience' is already real in any of us. Do you understand what I mean?

When you let your animal self control your free will, you are letting evil decieve you. When you surrender your will to God, you do deeds with your free will according to the guidance He has given you.

Oh yeah, the whole complexity of a person's individuation riddled down to that 'insight'. Wow, who in blazes need science of psychology to discover the reasons and truths behind the nature of being human?!


Plain ignorance? Heh. My religion clearly states anyone who dies in disbelief of God's messengers to man will be one of Hell's inmates. The disbelievers forgot about God in the world, and so God will forget about them in the next life. Ghandi was a Hindu. He was clearly aware of Islam, and other faiths. He rejected God.

YOur ignorance is infuriating because you're quietly self-righteous. YOu show no respect. One quality of every word you've uttered that I have seen is an amplitude of implicit, indirect, or direct disrespect to other great prophets, teachers, students who are not 100% Abrahmic religious. Your belief system renounces all forms of mysticism and its practitioners that are not of Allah because the Koran says so.

Here is an example of your blatant discourtesy:

First, Buddha lived long before Allah established the final messengers, so it is safe to assume that he has a plea of ignorance on the Day of Judgement, and Paradise is where he dwells. As far as we (as humans) know, Buddha could have been a prophet of Allah.

The belief of Buddhism is not a reality. It's just another deception. The buddhists reject Allah, and His Messengers. There is nothing beautiful about a shirk belief, that only decieves people from their Lord.


You got some nerve.. Telling us Siddartha is in Paradise, while his students will rot in Hell or are... That Buddhists are bunch of illusionists. And then MAKING a 'half-hearted' presumption on Siddartha being one of Allah's messenger. Tell me where in the Pali Canon does it even remotely reveal it. Tell me where the Koran even says it.

Just picture yourself speaking like the above to me personally, not knowing I may be such a 'student' or my family is devoted to Buddha. You understand what I mean by that and disrespect? It means watch your mouth.

Lets stop beating around the bush, If God showed Himself to you right now and told you disbelievers burn for eternity, would you still turn your head away from Him and say "I won't believe in a God who damns people forever"?

No, I will question him and the book that says so. If he says that's all true by your words... then I say he's lying to me because in my eyes he's not the compassionate one. Just as I would question Buddha about emptiness if he came to me at this moment.

All your spiritual experiences and intellectual understanding of your own religion revolves around your ethocentric beliefs. You associate and rationalize through only your beliefs. Can you not see how one-dimensional that is?

Currently, yOu have no wholistic understanding of the phenomenological process of ""insert other favourite mysticisms"" that leads to ""insert your favourite word for spiritual awakening"". You will encourage us to explore that process through Islam but scoff off other philosiphically different traditions.

Your intentions are good, your euphemism is, at best, undesirable.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #841897 - 08/25/02 10:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"The Christian could not go along with a stark monotheism in which God is utterly transcendent and sovereign, and still less with a pantheism in which God is entirely and universally immanent; he could not embrace a monism in which all differences are swallowed up in the eternal unity of God, but still less a pluralism like that of the world of polytheism with its 'many gods and many lords.'"

The question of what is more pleasing or more understandable to the human mind is of interest, but can this really fully account for the doctrine?

Does Christianity have something fundamentally different to say about the nature of reality as compared to say Buddhism or the more world denying Gnostic sects?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirror_saw]
    #842423 - 08/25/02 05:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Unlike the Indian and Greek ideas that God is impassible, transcendent and without involvement in form, Christianity posits that a unique rending in space-time has occurred, and that the Infinite and Eternal God has become united with finite and temporal human nature in the person of Jesus Christ. How this occurred has been defined by the numerous schools of Christianity that spring up: Sabellianism, Montanism, Arianism, Nestorianism, etc., etc., through the centuries of -isms. The union remains a Mystery - the central Mystery of Christianity, which thereby has ennobled human life, nature, and creation in general.

Christ or Logos may be imperishable, but through the agency of the man Jesus, the Eternal God was able to experience death - the limit of human existence; and also through the man Jesus, was a human able to experience the Magnitude of the Infinite Godhead. His Presence, and the Holy Spirit that emerged from that 'rend' or 'portal' in space-time that His manifestation provided humanity, is a Way to Eternal Life in God - while yet here and now. This interpenetration of Infinite and Eternal Spirit, and finite and temporal nature, constitutes the uniqueness of the Christian kerygma. Certainly, parallels to various aspects of the God-Man Jesus Christ can be found among the Avatars and Buddhas of Hinduism and Buddhism, but in addition to their existence on mythological levels of existence; as archetypes of the collective unconscious of humanity, Jesus was manifest in the historical level as well - not as a human who attained Enlightenment, but one who Incarnated the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This is the claim - the acceptance of this claim is a matter of faith.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #846323 - 08/27/02 09:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But you have left the discussion of reality and deferred to doctrine!

"Christianity posits that a unique rending in space-time has occurred, and that the Infinite and Eternal God has become united with finite and temporal human nature in the person of Jesus Christ."

Such differences could be written off as being different tradition's ways of expressing the same truth. Some people believe that all religions are roads to the same destination, that the differences between them amount to no more than a diversity of language for describing the same reality. My interest is not in unity, but in division.

I'm not sure you really believe in that division. Some people with a certain outlook (and I wouldn't know if that is you) will preach "tolerance" for all faiths, but only where the faith in question accepts all religions as being relative, that none is any more true than any other. They have an avid intolerance for anyone who disagrees!

Their position is just as much based on faith as the person who claims that their's is the only way to salvation. (and yet they think they are above such people...) What they are blind to is that their belief is intrinsic to their philosophy, that anyone who believes reality is an emanation from God to which all our "souls" will return can hardly believe that any religion is any more true than any other religion because it's all just the mind of God at play. To them, all scripture is just a pointer to this truth. It could be an entrenched, weird kind of fundamentalism. It is based on a psychological experience that for all we know could be a self supporting lie.

What is that outlook based on?

an experience. (believed to be spiritual)


That yours is the only truly divine religion, what is this based on?

an experience. (believed to be spiritual)

What we are left with is subjective psychological experience's - that can convince people of opposing views that they are both right!

It could be argued that the "spiritual" experiences come from the same source, but that the "broader" outlook is based on a fuller understanding, or at least that they have "gone beyond" a literal interpretation of scripture and the claims of a particular faith to be unique.

This would seem to be a false argument which doesn't recognize the philosophical divergence between the two positions.

Those with the "broader" outlook are so convinced of their "truth" that they can't see any divergence from their beliefs as being anything other than an illusion belonging to people with less understanding than themselves!

it would seem perhaps to be a delusion where any criticism can be dismissed as coming from someone "less spiritually developed" !

It is pleasing to the sensibilities of some people to think that all religions lead to God. If truth was always pleasing there would be no such thing as untruth.



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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirror_saw]
    #847083 - 08/27/02 03:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Religions are comprised of doctrines that constellate around the founder's religious experience. Christianity developed more around the experience of Paul, than of the experience of Jesus; Buddhism developed around the experience of Gautama; Islam developed around the experience of Muhammed. As I read today in Hoeller's new book on Gnosticism, most people's faith is based on someone else's faith.

It may be that 'all roads lead to the same place,' as in Frithjof Schuon's book 'The Transcendent Unity of Religions,' wherein he describes a many faced mountain, with each face representing a world religion. At the base where the mountain is widest, so are the differences between religions the widest. This is exoteric religion. About half way up the mountain, the faces narrow, as do the differences in each religion. This is esoteric religion. At the peak, the religions merge into a single apex - the Transcendent Unity. The PCE, or Pure Consciousness Experience school of mysticism believes that the PCE transcends the colorings of individuality in each faith. This means that at some 'point,' Buddhist Nirvana and Christian Heaven transcend their different formulations in mind as well as their ontological differences in the experiencer.

It is rare to experience, for example, a completely convincing Nirvanic experience, as well as, say, a completely convincing Theistic experience. I can say that with the aid of psychedelics, mind set and setting, I have had different types of mystical experiences. In one, on a Rosh Hashana, I had an 'I-Thou' experience that seemed as if 'I' was being addressed by the 'sky' (symbolically taken). I felt 'addressed' by an omnipresent, omniscient 'Subject,' for a moment. A couple of years later, indoors, sitting beneath a common ceramic Buddha on a bureau, after a day of staying high on microdot acid, and reading 'Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism,' my 'I' vanished, and an infinite and omniscient space of Compassion was All there was. 'I' was gone. When this infinite expanse of Compassion retracted, it seemed to shrink into a locus in space-time that had re-appeared - precisely into the 'place of my Heart.' The Universe had become a Compassionate Jewel in the Lotus of my Heart.

Now, both were powerful and different experiences which I can see as a synthesis of set and setting. The first was like the Buber descriptions I was reading - Theistic and Jewish. The second experience was Vajrayana-like, but could have been regarded as Christian (I was also reading Underhill's 'Mysticism' at the time). These experiences occurred in the early 1970's, and this week I bought a Kabbalistic book by Scholem as well as a Gnostic text. So, what am I saying? Well, like yourself, Scholem is interested in historical differences, not in identities like Jung or Campbell or Kerenyi. The Gnostics concede gnosis through other traditions besides their own. Both points of view may be completely insoluable in any amout of rational thought. I've pondered this for decades.

Nirvana is not equivalent to Heaven, these are not mere formulation differences based on temperament, constitution, tradition. They describe ontological differences. One can find, like the Gnostics, a "God beyond God" that Paul Tillich speaks of; or Saguna and Nirguna Brahman - Personal and Impersonal aspects of God, so that perhaps Nirvana means Nirguna Brahman; or Ishwara equals Judeao-Christian God and Purusha equals the J-C Godhead. The long held medieval belief was that one came closer to the 'Throne' of God, the more one was suffused with love and joy in this life. The Bhagavad Gita says that the Impersonalist (Yogi)who meditates on OM, is indirectly Krishna Conscious.

The Utterly Transcendent God, is One God, but the vectors by which the human consciousness attains union with the Divine may well be ontologically different. We may go to one of the "many mansions" mentioned by Jesus. Humans do not become the Essence of God, but perhaps merging with God's Radiance, or Uncreated Energy, as the Greek Orthodox say it, is tantamount to union with God. We can never 'Know' another like the other 'Knows' himself - God included.

What to do? Is there a Way of life upon the Earth that is acceptable on the horizontal plane - interpersonally? I think so, and I believe that it is to be Compassionate. What else must one do to be a good Buddhist that differs from that which one must do to being a good Christian? Probably maintain outer rituals and inner beliefs to be authentic in the body-mind as well as the spirit.

I do not think that all religions are equal. There are high and low religions. Stewart Ferrar in 'What Witches Do,' said that Wicca was a low religion. The cyclical forces of nature, howsoever symbolized as God-Goddess, do not express the Transcendence of other religions of the world. Santeria and Voodoo are other examples. I aspire to the God Who is Love. I see this in a (granted, Gnostic) Christian worldview, for lack of a better tab (different from mainstream vicarious-sacrifice Christian theologies), and not as a Bhakti Krishna Devotee who might make the same statement. What else can I say?


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #848303 - 08/28/02 03:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"what else can i say?"
~
"Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me!"
(martin luther, early 16th century)
~

~
is karuna = caritas ?


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #848984 - 08/28/02 12:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"is karuna = caritas?" Hmm. This might be like comparing bananas to plantains
Karuna is generally rendered 'compassion' I think. Caritas [charity] is theologically the 'caritas synthesis,' wherein the Catholics created a hybrid - at least in word - of agape [the selfless Godly love from 'on high'] and eros [the yearning for the 'other']. Agape is sort of a fulfilled form of love which 'gives of itself, freely'; and eros is the yearning or desire for union with the other, in the higher Platonic Eros sense, for God, as well as in the (now appropriated meaning) sense of 'the erotic.' Eros was the god of love for Plato, but theologians have relegated eros to the strictly human and creaturely domain, while agape is spiritual, imparted by the Holy Spirit. I think karuna = agape. Kama (as in the sutra, is probably) = cupidity or eros (Latin/Greek) in today's meanings. Anders Nygren wrote a huge tome on these forms, called 'Agape and Eros,' which I suffered through, on my own without it being assigned, during my seminary days. I might have learned more about love if I'd gotten laid more during that sad period.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (08/28/02 12:09 PM)


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #850345 - 08/29/02 04:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"faith, hope, and charity... and the greatest of these is charity..."
~
jeffery's prison conversion... well, i do think that he was raised in a lutheran household, and thus at least, nominally "christian"...
back to the old sanctification & justification deal... is a "conversion experience" needed for one to "truly be" a christian??? must one display "gifts of the holy spirit" (i.e. "tongues", etc...)??? one baptism for the remission of sins???
just who is a christian anyways???

(hmmm, maybe a new post required? topic of repeated yammeryammer at hipplanet.com


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #850450 - 08/29/02 06:24 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I don't believe in jailhouse conversion. Notice that no one (rarely) ever repents until AFTER they get caught? The last minute conversion is either fake or totally fear-based (poor me - what will happen to me now?) which is contrapuntal to love and compassion.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #851593 - 08/29/02 06:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Good questions. The Catholics began to baptize infants, based, I suppose, on related Biblical notions such as the faith of one's spouse saving the other. The Amish people, for one, were persecuted and killed for their disbelief in infant baptism. They, like other Protestant denominations, believe that an adult must decide that they want to be baptized. The baptism is an outward symbol of an inward change [metanoia], it is not a 'magical' procedure as some people tend to think of it, imparting the Holy Spirit by a combination of words, substance (water) and intention. BTW, baptisms are recognized, even from lay people in dire emergencies if only 2 of the 3 above elements are included. Thus, baptisms with urine on the desert, or sea water, from people who did not know any liturgy, but who knew the intention of what they were to perform for a dying and truly contrite individual are valid.

In the heyday of my yogic-psychedelic-long-haired search, just prior to leaving college - I was reading the New Testament. I had already known about the BE HERE NOW message that 'All Your Acts Will Be Consecrated,' but I began to pray befor eating. A beautiful, shapely, long-haired Black girl named Pauline asked me, "Are You a Christian?," and for the first time in my Jewish life, I answered "Yes." We became friendly, and I sorely wanted her, but her 'born-again' friends warned her about me. I don't know what they knew, except 1) I was White, 2) there may have been some possessive jealousy from her Black, male friends, and 3) I was filled with desire for her, even while making a confession of faith, thus prooving the iffyness of my faith to her. In fact, an inner change had occurred, and I sought baptism in a Catholic Church about 6 months later.

Despite all I had learned from India and from Greece, when life itself humbled me, and I broke down while working as a janitor and living again with my parents after 4 years of college, it was God to Whom I pleaded for strength in Jesus' Name. I have never regretted the inner change since my sense of morality was always strong even before this occurred. This change made me uptight about sex for a while, but that passed. The Real change was the working Reality of prayer, and having prayers granted; about synchronicities which can be read 'miracles,' and about growth in deep peace (despite surface neuroses), faith and abiding certitude in Eternal Life.

As you know, I usually do not 'witness' in this manner, but this is how I can answer your question best. I do not possess glossolalia, neither do I believe in many of the psychoneurotic manifestations of hysteria ('conversion' hysteria!) that manifests by utterings, swoonings or slayings, general prophesying (of course I recognize psi functions) and other aberrant behaviors commonly taken a signs of spiritual rebirth. Perhaps the 'gift' that I possess is in teaching - certainly not preaching - which I don't even care for. Bottom line is that I believe in my Heart-of-Hearts that Whomever Christ was historically, and is Eternally, He is THE Reality that fuels the Life in my Sacred Heart. I attribute Compassion, Faith, Truthfulness, Joy, Courage and Patience - to name the most prominent facets of a single Reality that indwells my Center. These I attribute to Christ, which in my opinion makes me a Christian. I suppose I could speak in parallel terms of the various Dhyani Buddha-Wisdoms as facets of the singular Diamond Body (Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart), but this would be just that - a parallel to THAT which I MOST thoroughly believe in - with All my Heart, All my Soul and All my Might. This is a Blood Mysticism - from the Heart, rather than a Head mysticism; and I am a warm-blooded Western man in a Jewish-Christian milieu. It just seems Right.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemirrorsaww
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #854867 - 08/31/02 12:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I do not think that all religions are equal. There are high and low religions. Stewart Ferrar in 'What Witches Do,' said that Wicca was a low religion. The cyclical forces of nature, howsoever symbolized as God-Goddess, do not express the Transcendence of other religions of the world.

I'm surprised that there are no pagans around here to bash you for that comment!

My own opinion of paganism is that it is 98% a recent invention. Some people believe that the inquisition was an attempt to repress a pre-Christian "nature religion". Pure fantasy and bullshit.

You don't seem to admit the possibility that some of the major world religions could be "low religions" as you put it.

It's strange that you would seek to identify yourself with some long dead heretical sects. Where is your problem with the normal Christian mystics? Is there some Gnostic philosophy that you passionately believe to be superior to the orthodox?


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #854890 - 08/31/02 01:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

is a "conversion experience" needed for one to "truly be" a Christian???

Or do conversion experiences only happen to people without self-awareness of the gradual change in themselves? i.e. that it suddenly bursts up from the subconscious appearing to them to be instantaneous?


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #854996 - 08/31/02 02:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

LOL! You're beautiful, man. Why should Pagans bash me, I'm not bashing them. If you do not aspire to disembodied/corpus incorruptibilis existence, but desire rebirth on this beautiful planet, then what is that to me? 'An Harm Ye None,' is ethics enough for life in this world with Pagans. Some people finish high school; others get Associate degrees, or Bachelors, or Masters, or even Doctorates. Different degrees in this world; different degrees of 'closeness to the Throne' in the next. I know I'm being Medieval, but I'm just reiterating the spiritual Great Chain of Being.


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Offlinemirrorsaww
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #858152 - 09/02/02 01:48 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

I'm not bashing them.

Oh right, you just mentioned Stewart Ferrar's opinion that their's was a "low religion"... and you seemed to agree with it  :grin:

I'm still bemused as to why you want to identify yourself with lond dead sects...


Edited by mirrorsaww (09/02/02 02:23 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #858283 - 09/02/02 06:33 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Why is this thread still here?

MAKE IT STOP! mmmake iiiiitt ssstooooooop....

Seriously, this thread is sooooo far off the original topic...
Start a new thread, this one's dead.


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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #858356 - 09/02/02 07:47 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Why don't you check out this site: www.webcom/%7Egnosis/welcome.html just to listen to a contemporary scholar on Gnosticism. His new book explains Gnostic scriptures in a contemporary light. I am not looking for other myths by which to grasp our origins, but the Gnostics were psychologists in their own right, and they understood that transformation of the world was an inner transformation, a psychospiritual transformation, not a political-social transformation. Their body of sacraments and rituals were intended to transform consciousness. Influences from Gnosticism can be found in literature and in modern theological constructs about our tripartite nature as body-mind-spirit.

I have always been drawn to the Gospel of John - the least historically accurate, but perhaps the most spiritually accurate of the canonical gospels, as well as the most Gnostic in the inner-directed sense. The Gospel of Thomas was my next discovery, and anyone with even a little Hindu or Buddhist exposure will find a theology of Self-Realization; and a Fully-Realized Esvhatology, which differs radically from the partially-realized eschatology of the Gospels, wherein the victory over evil is here potentially, but the 'fullness' exists in the 'future.' The Kingdom of God/Heaven is expressed as a condition 'in the future,' not as a present reality, except in certain passages (e.g., 'the Kingdom of Heaven is within you,' which Gnostics point out has 2 Greek translations into -eso and -ento forms, such that the first indicates an inner psychospiritual reality, and the latter ['in the midst of you] speaks to a social notion of community).

Once my soul had been psychedelicized, I could not help but become even more inner-directed, Self-Realized, and interior than I had been before. Mainstream churches, like society in general, are mostly extroverted. Less than 25% of Americans tested are introverts, and my typology according to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, is INTP, like Carl Jung himself. This type is in the single digit percentages. It is a great gift that my Lady is also an Introverted Intuitive Thinking Perceiving type. This typology resonates with the kind of thinking that the Gnostics are known for. The original Gnostics were no exception, and they were deemed heretical by the extraverted, power hungry, movers and shakers that constituted the developers of the early Christian Church. I for one, and my Lady have predominantly Meso-Ectomorphic bodies, with the corresponding Cerebrotonic temperaments. We are thinkers and contemplatives, not warriors. Our Scheldonian types want to soar on-high, not pick fights, crusade against our neighbors or establish rule over anyone. Neither did the Gnostics, and the Mesomorphic bully-boys of antiquity, who, through their action-oriented, aggressive Scheldonian temperaments processed their religious beliefs through their typical constitutions, picked on the egg-head Gnostics as well. Might does not make right, not then and not now, but politics are run by bullies, tyrants, sadists, and the like, as evidenced by 'Christian' persecutions, inquisitions, torturings, immolations, and crusades. In conclusion: it is natural to people of my typology (as variously defined) to be attracted to groups who have processed certain Profoundly Spiritual Experiences in like manner. I hope this helps to answer your questions.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #860478 - 09/03/02 02:21 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Oh yeah, neglected this question. Yes, a conversion experience is necessary to becoming a Christian. The word in Greek for such a change of perspective is called 'metanoia.' Enlightenment can be like someone sleeping in a darkened room til noon, who suddenly has the window shade spring open suddenly, flooding the room with light; or it can be like someone who leaves the shade up, and the light of day gradually brightens the room til one is awakened by it.

The inner projects the outer. This is the only legitimate 'order of operations.' Growing up in a 'Christian' family might impart values and thoughts about life, but this is a social learning situation, taught from without and merely assumed. The core personality remains untouched howsoever well one is cloaked with religion. One may go through life acting in a socially wonderful way, which is great for society, but the 'act' is not transforming of the personality itself. One's ego does not become 'transfigured' into a 'transcendental ego.' Stated another way, there is no 'death and resurrection' of the ego - dead to self and raised in Christ. These are Christian psychospiritual formulations, but conversion, or completion clearly involves both psyche (mind, soul) and pneuma (spirit) in a change that is evidenced by increased selflessness, increased humility and compassion, and faith in Ultimate Reality (God, by any Name) that transcends one's comprehension).


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