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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #836142 - 08/22/02 03:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

rebirth, transmigration can be found among Muslim Sufis

Interesting. Can you point me in the direction of some info about the Sufi's in question.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirror_saw]
    #836415 - 08/22/02 05:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Pir Vilayat - The Chisti Order. A book entitled 'Toward the One,' which is unfortunately out of print, but Excellent in picture and word. But, more useful than Indian adoption of transmigration are the writings or histories of Islamic mystics such as al-Ghazzali and al-Hallaj (whose hands and feet were amputated before he was crucified for stating "I am the Truth" - a parallel experience which his accusers rightly associated with Jesus, and so levelled a parallel punishment. Well, after all , he was guilty of shirk - of association of his deep Self with God - had to kill 'im).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #836585 - 08/22/02 06:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sadly, you do not believe the Qur'an is the complete, unchanged word of God and that is why you view me as a fundamentalist. But I am still pondering what you said earlier regarding Gandhi:

One's goodness derives from one's spiritual nature, which in turn derives from God.

What are you implying by this belief and its relation to Gandhi?

It is a lesson for me. It is useless in your tradition as well.

Egoist.

We are both believers, but you obviously have no tolerance for the Islamic faith. I think you are the fundamentalist. God knows what real fundamentalism is, if such a thing exists. As far as we both know, both of us could be fundamentalists. Would you like me to refer you to web-site on Islamic history on why the Qur'an is supposed to be trusted as the final word from God? Perhaps learning more about the Muslim faith you can learn appreciate the union that we share in worshipping the Creator. Currently I am attending a Bible study with a good friend once a week to learn more about the Christian faith.

God will clarify the truth to everyone on the Day of Judgement. We both believe in the One God, why do you continue to isolate yourself from Islam? I'm not preaching it to you, but encouraging you to learn more about it. Read the Qur'an even, there is alot of wisdom behind the text that was never changed since the time of Muhammad and the first caliph, Abu Bakr.


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OfflineDanimal
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #837036 - 08/22/02 10:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You need a radical ego-adjustment my friend.

I should say the same thing, but I won't.

"I hate you"
"The feeling is mutual"
Both people hate each other, only one uttered "I hate you".


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #837235 - 08/23/02 03:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

shalom markos
salaam zahid
greetings all...
did sufi sam really say that? hmm, i sometimes say: i don't have a lot of answers, but i have some really good questions...
i suppose there's a seeker born every minute...
per the sufis... well many sufi beliefs will be viewed as heterodoxy by most muslims (and no doubt most christians & jews...) even as they visit shrines of past "muslim saints" as holy men --- no doubt whose views could cause them to be executed as heretics in some regimes...
didn't dr harshaw & dr mahmoud say something about some concepts that were obvious in arabic that couldn't be expressed in english (this in a discussion of martian language, & young mr smith's attempt to tell his water brothers properly "thou art god"...)(well, well touchstone fiction...)
well... i must agree with markos that deathbed or deathrow conversions always seem a little... suspect... but then, i am only human...
isn't there a sufi story about a seeker after truth being shown 3 groups of people... the first miserable from want of heaven, the second miserable for fear of hell, and the third radiant with the love of god...
let him with ears hear...
namaste
/gnrmi


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #837592 - 08/23/02 08:15 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well... i must agree with markos that deathbed or deathrow conversions always seem a little... suspect...

If I remember correctly, the Quran said they were bullshit too...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: gnrm23]
    #837943 - 08/23/02 11:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Greetings friend. Yeah, that is from 'Toward the One.' Acually, included in that sentence is the statement that 'My I.Q. is exactly 50. I have...' Of course, an accurately measured I.Q. of 50 would make him seriously mentally handicapped. I suppose that the "answers" he was referring to were an inner knowledge - a gnosis, if you will, in which Murshid was 'informed' inwardly by God. Of corse, this sounds a lot like associating partners, or shirk, if human knowledge is confounded with Divine 'substance.' I wasn't suggesting that 'I,' had all the answers, and no questions (I hope you didn't read it that way). I have many answers to a few important questions. The difficulty is discerning the 'invariant features' common to those answers and treating those invariant features as Universal Truth by which to live. Shalom.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838041 - 08/23/02 11:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In fact, I purchased a copy of the Qur'an (your spelling, BTW, which I have been using, if you check back, out of reverence for the book, and respect for your more accurate rendering in English) back in 1978 when I was still in a Christian seminary. I am not isolated from Islam, and I have had Muslim friends, students and acquaintances from Turkey, Egypt and Nigeria to name a few. The regard for your Book as the final Word from God is a matter of faith, not fact. Faith clearly commands more influence over human history than does fact. It is clear that the Qur'an is an original piece, not written by Muhammed, but preserved unchanged over the centuries; it is also the most recently written (as opposed to "final") scriptural Book in the history of Western religion.

I believe that you are in fact preaching; not teaching. Teachers wait for students to appear and ask questions. Preachers lay it on the people - solicited or unsolicited.
I understand the uncompromising Monotheism of Islam, both as a corrective to, and a unifying factor among the numerous bedouin tribes and their polytheisms. I also see Islam as a reaction to the growing Catholic 'Christian' Church with its misunderstood Doctrine of the Trinity (misunderstood by Judaism and Islam) and its own seeming pantheon of saints. Neither Jews, or Jesus and His followers knew of a Trinity, and this was a psychological development out of Hellenism far more than a statement about an ontological division in the Utter Unity of God. I am clearly not fundamentalist by this very assertion. Only Gentile Christians with deep roots in pagan and polytheistic histories can claim that God is Three. The Latin formula is "Una Substantia, Tres Personas," One Substance, Three Persons." I have studied this paradox much since 1976, and have done my best (sometimes successfully) to explain this doctrine to Muslims. From Tertullian, the originator of the term, through Augustine to modern day theologian John MacQuarrie, who has probably done the best rendering of the idea.

As to my assertion on Gandhi: we humans have a nature, regardless of what our beliefs are. I see that nature by way of an ancient model that views us as a tripartite being of body-mind-spirit. Many people have seen it thusly, from Plato to Paul to artist Alex Grey! The spirit is the most mysterious and least able to be analyzed, because it transcends the analytical mind. It is non-substantial, and without extension in space-time, like mind, but spirit as I see it is eternal in it's nature and in that sense partakes of the Divine's "image and likeness" in Man. Humans are 'beings,' not mere animals. God is not 'a being,' but the 'Very Ground of Being.' This is not to say that our 'spirit' is identical to the Spirit which is God, but as 'beings,' we draw our existence from the Ground of Being. We can choose to become increasingly aware of our spiritual nature, or remain identified with our bodies and minds. We can even feign morality by parroting 'good behaviors,' but this is no real morality. Real morality is the outward actions that flow from Compassion. You will agree, from every Sura in the Qur'an, that 'Allah is the Merciful; the Compassionate.' We partake of the Divine nature insofar as we are truly Compassionate. This is what I meant with regard to Mohandas Gandhi.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838055 - 08/23/02 11:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am a little confused.
Since when do muslims quote the bible and say christians
are going to heaven.Sounds like you are picking and choosing the part you like
about each religion.


Edited by 905 (08/23/02 11:58 AM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: mirror_saw]
    #838067 - 08/23/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well... i must agree with markos that deathbed or deathrow conversions always seem a little... suspect...

If I remember correctly, the Quran said they were bullshit too...


I believe that's correct. Same goes with terminal illness. The moment you gain knowledge that you are going to die, any conversion is generally void and they die a kufr. Prison conversion (life sentence, for example) is different though. In the case of Jeffrey Dahmer, he was serving a life sentence and had no knowledge of his coming death when Christopher Scarver killed him.


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Edited by Zahid (08/23/02 11:58 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838110 - 08/23/02 12:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

You don't understand. When you attack and kill Muslims in one small part of the world, it is an attack on the entire world wide Muslim community. Jihad means to struggle in the cause of God against oppression and evil. The Muslims who fought in Bosnia, or Chechnya came from all over the world. Some from Australia and the United States even.





Does this also mean when one muslim attacks the united states that all muslims
attack the united states?Should we declare all muslims as our enemy?
Should muslim americans hate themselves?


Edited by 905 (08/23/02 12:16 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: ]
    #838116 - 08/23/02 12:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am a little confused.
Since when do muslims quote the bible and say christians
are going to heaven.Sounds like you are picking and choosing the part you like
about each religion.

We don't quote the Bible. Most Muslims have never read the Bible. When I say Christians and Jews go to heaven, it is based off this verse in the Holy Qur'an:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an),
Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures),
And the Sabians and the Christians-
Any who believe in Allah
And the Last Day,
And work righteousness-
On them shall be no fear,
Nor shall they greieve.


5:69

I have great respect for Christians and Jews, the Qur'an commands us to be kind to them.

Does this also mean when one muslim attacks the united states that all muslims
attack the united states?Should we declare all muslims as our enemy?
Should muslim americans hate themselves?


No. This is a fundamentalist idea that has no basis in Islam. Allah is well aware that some of His slaves think they are doing good in the world when they are actually doing evil.


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Edited by Zahid (08/23/02 12:20 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #838578 - 08/23/02 05:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In fact, I purchased a copy of the Qur'an (your spelling, BTW, which I have been using, if you check back, out of reverence for the book, and respect for your more accurate rendering in English) back in 1978 when I was still in a Christian seminary. I am not isolated from Islam, and I have had Muslim friends, students and acquaintances from Turkey, Egypt and Nigeria to name a few. The regard for your Book as the final Word from God is a matter of faith, not fact. Faith clearly commands more influence over human history than does fact. It is clear that the Qur'an is an original piece, not written by Muhammed, but preserved unchanged over the centuries; it is also the most recently written (as opposed to "final") scriptural Book in the history of Western religion.

Based on what is fact in this world (basically, science), no Muslim could ever prove the Qur'an is the final word of God, if it was done the world would be a different place indeed. This goes back to my arguement with kufr about the logic behind faith. The logic behind the faith that the Qur'an is the final word of God is based on the Qur'an itself; the miracle that it has not been changed since the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The faith Muslims have that it is unchanged since Muhammad's time is based on recorded Islamic history/Arabian histpry, since the days of Jahiliyya Arabia to modern day Saudi Arabia, and the current Muslim ummah. Just as you have faith in the aspect of trinity, Muslims have faith the Qur'an is the final word of God, wherein Allah states that He is not three, but one. Considering the faith of every believer is based off the teachings of a prophet, the world around them, and their experiencing of the reality God, there will always be conflict and clashing of beliefs within the world wide community of those who worship and repent to the one, true God. One thing we do know for sure, is that God will set the record straight.

I believe that you are in fact preaching; not teaching. Teachers wait for students to appear and ask questions. Preachers lay it on the people - solicited or unsolicited.

Yes, I do preach in the Spirituality and Philosophy forum when it persists. In my day to day real life, I do not preach my beliefs to others because I understand some people will never believe. Here on the Shroomery, there are a fair amount of intelligent kufr who either preach against religion or debate with a believer who is preaching his beliefs. I enjoy an in depth debate with a nonbeliever. Often in the perils of debate (induced or not induced by online preaching) you think of something you wouldn't have otherwise as you attempt to contradict the unbeliever who is attempting to contradict you. Since I live in the west, I am overjoyed to speak with tolerant Christians of all ages on the topic of religion and faith. Yesterday I had a very interesting conversation with a Christian co-worker of mine on the topic of Elvis Aaron Presley...she discussed the religious side of Elvis, how his mother was religious, and how Elvis was definately searching for peace in the last years of his life. She hoped Elvis found whatever he was looking for, and she hoped he made peace with God. While it's difficult to describe this old woman, her tolerance of my Islamic faith truly inspires me to seek more contact with those who worship God. You have made it clear you are tolerant of my faith, I apologize for my misunderstanding. But still, to assume I am a fundamentalist because I believe the Qur'an is the complete, final word of God unadulterated (a belief that every Muslim shares) sounds a little off the radar to me. You may see the preaching as negative, but someone who is not even involved in the debate, someone who may not even be a registered user, may read my posts, see the in depth arguement of mine, and by chance, become a believer. The only chance I get to present some of these arguement on the logic behind faith are often in debate with a hard line atheist (who also presents his arguement intelligently, and logically). In regards to Gandhi, thank you for clarifying what you meant. For Christians, their goal of morality is the example of Christ, while for Muslims, it is the example of Muhammad.


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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838870 - 08/23/02 07:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The early writings of the bible, portray human darkness as Lucifer, a fallen angel who was originally sent to lead humans astray in order that they may find God's love (read Scott Peck's The Road Less Traveled I think there is a thread in there regarding this literary interpertation) Lucifer ultimately defied God when He decided so send His Son, Jesus to show how this path to God is followed, by a human.
I like that you are willing to gain (positively) from something so tradgic as a life like J. Dahmer, but rather than compare him to others in a judgement sense, I prefer to think of how INDIVIDUAL something like salvation can be to every person, no matter what has happened in their past.
All the same, in this instance and many others like it, I'd prefered those innocent victims had the same chance at a life beyond their mistake of encountering a monster such as him. I also have some reservations about some of facts regarding his life in prison. I believe that sometimes this type of interpertation of horrific events, is an excuse for people that do such deeds. They then justify these deeds in such a way as though they performed some act of or for God. I believe that many of these people are unrepentive and evil, to their last breath, which doesn't come soon enough.


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"New shit has come to light..."


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: GRTUD]
    #838906 - 08/23/02 07:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I like that you are willing to gain (positively) from something so tradgic as a life like J. Dahmer, but rather than compare him to others in a judgement sense, I prefer to think of how INDIVIDUAL something like salvation can be to every person, no matter what has happened in their past.

I agree with you here, I use Mr. Dahmer as an example that some people don't see the light until the whispers of Satan completely corrupt a person. That is why there is Hell. But Jeffrey Dahmer also believed, so he will eventually get to Paradise. God only knows how long he will spend in Hell for the 17 young men he murdered out of lust. Jeffrey Dahmer has a very warped soul, but the purpose of the Fire is to also purify the wicked believers.

Out of curiousity, what are your thoughts about Dahmer's last years and his conversion to Christianity?


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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #838934 - 08/23/02 07:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I really can't say for sure, just that I would have believed the conversion more real if he had made a leap of faith sooner and turned himself in before being caught (I don't know if he did or didn't). It isn't up to me to make a judgement on his soul though, only God knows for sure. As a human, I don't have to measure him by any other fact than his deeds on earth. God can asses his inner workings like his own suffering, feelings, etc. My only responsibility is to protect myself, my family, my world, against people like him, in the flesh. God can sort the rest out.


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"New shit has come to light..."


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: GRTUD]
    #839062 - 08/23/02 08:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I really can't say for sure, just that I would have believed the conversion more real if he had made a leap of faith sooner and turned himself in before being caught (I don't know if he did or didn't). It isn't up to me to make a judgement on his soul though, only God knows for sure. As a human, I don't have to measure him by any other fact than his deeds on earth. God can asses his inner workings like his own suffering, feelings, etc. My only responsibility is to protect myself, my family, my world, against people like him, in the flesh. God can sort the rest out.

Could not have said it better myself.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: Zahid]
    #840063 - 08/24/02 09:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You write well, Zahid, but you read perhaps too quickly, and misunderstand. If you read my post again, you will see that I relegate the doctrine of the Trinity to Man's subjectively psychological symbolism of God, not to God's objective Real Nature. Shema Y'srael, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Echod - Hear O Israel, the LORD thy God, the LORD is One. Tertullian, the theologian, 'designed' the term Trinity based upon the Names of God used in the New Testament writings: "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit [alt. "Ghost"]. He, and others after him were determined to create a doctrine that impacted the psyche of Man so that God was not apprehended, as a modern woman once stated, a "an infinite sea of grey tapioca." That a living dynamism exists eternally in the Godhead, the number three (using the tool of Jungian psychology) suggests such a dynamism. A tringle is dynamic, for example, while a square - a quaternity - denotes balance and stability. Twoness is too blatently dualistic and perhaps both Pagan, Zoroastrian, Manichean; and simple Oneness - while Ultimately True - is incomprehensible and the unenlightened human mind receives the idea as completely inert, lifeless, abstract. A dynamically 'Divine Economia' was intended to suggest the Eternally Living God, who IS Love - but Love exists in relationship, hence there must be at least two poles between which Love can transpire. Because of the Three Divine Names, a Tri-Unity was evolved.

Notice that angelic beings such as the Ophanim - the wheels within wheels that are covered in eyes, of Ezekiel's vision should be taken as a 'vision' not as a physical reality; and the vision is pregnant with symbolism such as the wheel as a symbol for eternity, and two wheels intersected in perpendicular planes - rotating wheels covered with eyes - would symbolize omniscience. Please understand that Trinitarian thought, at the high level that is intended, operates on this subjectively psychic pole of the human, BUT the concretistic thinking of most people tends to be literal. The Threeness was projected from the psychic subjective plane of the human psyche onto Deity Himself. Jews would not have come to this formulation. Greeks, with a history of polytheism in their collective unconscious came up with this. I understand this, and though I may pray IN THE NAMES of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I do not believe that God is anything but a "Superessential Unity" (Dionysus the Areopagite). There are other Names for Allah - The Merciful and The Compassionate being the most well known. Does this imply a 'Allah-Merciful-Compassionate' trinity? Of course not. The analytical mind has long attempted to explain Ultimate Reality. While this is fascinating to me as a psychologist of religion, it is ultimately absurd to attempt to apprehend Infite God by finite, linear rational mind. Ridiculous. The whole matter should be humbly regarded as the Incomprehensible Mystery that it is - worshipped, not understood - humbly submitted to, not explained.

The equivalence you have made between Jesus and Muhammed is not accurate. The salvific element in Christianity is a 'personality,' in Islam it is 'the Book.' Christ is the Mystery, Incarnate - a human life so suffused by the Divine Influence that He becomes, for all intent and purpose (if not in actual 'substance' like the Catholics maintained) the Divine Will on Earth. That same degree of Divine Will is embodied in the Qur'an in Islam, not in the Prophet. Similarly, in Judaism, it is the Torah, not the Lawgiver Moses, that embodies the Divine Will. All of these can be viewed from an outer, exoteric perspective, or they can be viewed from an inner esoteric perspective - which is the gnostic approach. Even though these persons and events have manifested in the outer world historically, they are multidimensional and exist in the inner, invisible realms of psyche and spirit as well as in matter. The physical man Jesus, or the original tablets of stone upon which Moses was supposed to have inscribed the Law, are not the aspects of thoses things which effect my psyche and spirit. The words are vehicles that convey the IDEAS, but that is the psychic realm. The IDEAS, while sacred, must still only guide me to the REALITY about which the IDEAS only point to. The REALITY is GOD. The outer Words, received by my material ears are conveyed to my psyche which in turn attracts and directs my consciousness to the spirit - that aspect of our nature that can 'interface' with the Divine. Remember, 'God is closer to us than our Jugular vein.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #840146 - 08/24/02 10:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

you will see that I relegate the doctrine of the Trinity to Man's subjectively psychological symbolism of God, not to God's objective Real Nature.

I have considered it possible that the trinity was a statement about the nature of the connection between the absolute and it's creation. Perhaps in opposition to the view of some that the world is evil and only the "self" is pure. That the incarnation and physical resurrection represent the sanctification of the world as being divine. That creation is good and human divergence by free will is the only evil. The world is not seen as a prison to be escaped from. A denial of strict asceticism and the inherent pessimistic outlook on the nature of reality. A philosophical viewpoint that although God is beyond and apart from creation... the trinity represents the connection between the absolute and it's creation in a positive way. Perhaps representing more than merely a psychological need for something to grasp?

(just an idea - and I'm sure you are aware of another possible reason for the doctrine of physical resurrection.)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #840164 - 08/24/02 10:37 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

While I don't know much about Christianity and its history, I am more than open minded to learn. My Christian friends also present to me that God is three in one. When did Trinity became accepted? As for interfaith dialogue, Islam does not support Trinity because of the traditional Islamic belief that Allah has no son, and that the Holy Spirit is a nick name for the angel Gabriel. As you suggest, a theologian came up with the term Trinity, which then established the Trinity belief in Christianity? And do Christians in general believe that God is three in one, rather then viewing Trinity as simple names for the Lord?

You're correct about the other names of Allah, there are 99 beautiful names to describe Allah's attributes. The common two of the ninety nine are the Merciful and the Compassionate, which are presented at the start of each chapter in the Holy Qur'an - In the name of Allah, the Merciful the Compassionate. You probably know this, though. When I made the reference to Jesus and Muhammad, I compared them as moral examples. Someone here once said (I can't remember if it was you, or enter) something about Christians becoming 'Christlike' in morality as an example, this reminded me of the Islamic example to take the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a role model. Of course, the Prophets (peace be upon them all) were without sin, such a thing very impossible for the average believer to achieve, since we all listen to the whispers of Satan once in awhile. And I see you've been reading some Hadiths.


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