Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]
zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?...
    #7914133 -

zappaisgod said:
art said:
I don't mind so much that people are spending my money for social issues, it is the national security that pisses me off.


Well, that seems a little odd since the one, national security, is clearly mandated in the Constitution and the other is most definitely not. Perhaps you live in the wrong country. The guess here is that you pay a relatively paltry sum in taxes and receive far more benefits than your contribution would otherwise produce if you had to pay for them on the open market. Hence your love of "social" programs. I believe this to be true of almost all who espouse spending on social programs. Plain greed.


zappas' position raises two questions ..

1) are inflated healthcare costs in the US really the result of supply and demand as zappa claims.. or simply the result of (well-known and documented) rampant cronyism?...

2) is cronyism cronyism.. or is it just the natural result of upward pressure on prices?...(interestingly..the latter establishes a feedback loop which could cause the price to become infinite)...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7914952 -

One thing is for sure, and that is that Zzzap always likes to claim that young people are less deserving of the benevolence the government dishes because they go to school and live with their parents, and are in effect, tax leaches. Zzzap is more entitled for his opinions, because he's spent the last 80% of his life as a slave to the system, and conditioned to think that everything is ok.

He is right, though, that your government should not be dishing out these social programs, especially when they don't plan to raise taxes to raise the funds to be able to do it. They'll just inflate the currency. But they do that for all of their spending anyway....


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #7915142 -

Annapurna1 said:
zappaisgod said:
art said:
I don't mind so much that people are spending my money for social issues, it is the national security that pisses me off.


Well, that seems a little odd since the one, national security, is clearly mandated in the Constitution and the other is most definitely not. Perhaps you live in the wrong country. The guess here is that you pay a relatively paltry sum in taxes and receive far more benefits than your contribution would otherwise produce if you had to pay for them on the open market. Hence your love of "social" programs. I believe this to be true of almost all who espouse spending on social programs. Plain greed.


zappas' position raises two questions ..

1) are inflated healthcare costs in the US really the result of supply and demand as zappa claims.. or simply the result of (well-known and documented) rampant cronyism?...


Health care costs are seemingly high for a variety of reasons.

1. Ludicrous torts and malpractice claims.
2. The existence of an insurance bureaucracy at all, which will only increase once the gummint gets into it. Every single insurance company employee is a non-productive drain on health dollars. They do not contribute one iota to actual care.
3. Number 2 above is compounded tremendously by the insurance liaisons in every doctor's office who have to make sure every form is filled out perfectly. More non-productive bureaucrats.
4. Unrealistic patient demands. Everybody seems to think they are entitled to the top specialist in the world. On their plan. Which they bitch about the cost of and which chisels doctors.
5. Morons who go to the doctor and demand antibiotics for colds. Suck it up, pansies, you don't go to the doctor for every sniffle and you don't need medicine for it either. Fucking pussies.
6. Related to 1 & 4 is the enormous explosion of incredibly expensive machinery and R & D costs. We already have all the easy stuff. Everything else is just going to cost more and more to develop and implement. It's related to #1 in that doctors get sued if they don't use these incredibly expensive tests every time and something comes up that could have been caught if they did, even if the likelihood of the test's utility was minimal.
7. The single greatest factor pushing the cost of healthcare up, aside from general stupidity and selfishness, is that the consumer does not directly pay for the service.

I'll speak for myself, sweetheart. In the future if you have a question just ask. Don't even try to read my mind, it's a good bit beyond the "See Spot Conspire To Fuck Hippies and Poor People" stuff you're used to.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Minstrel]
    #7915211 -

Minstrel said:
One thing is for sure, and that is that Zzzap always likes to claim that young people are less deserving of the benevolence the government dishes because they go to school and live with their parents, and are in effect, tax leaches. Zzzap is more entitled for his opinions, because he's spent the last 80% of his life as a slave to the system, and conditioned to think that everything is ok.


Young people are neither less nor more deserving of what they cannot pay for than anybody else. They are not special. My slavery has rewarded me very well. You can only dream that you will someday be rewarded half as well. Not likely, though, since you seem to be more concerned with panhandling than actually working to get what you want.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7915995 -

In my short life, I've made a greater contribution to human scientific knowledge than you could ever comprehend and hope to appreciate. There is little question that the system that you've supported all your life has done nothing but get in the way.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Minstrel]
    #7916033 -

Whatever you say. Now get a real job and support yourself.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7917094 -

zappaisgod said:
Annapurna1 said:
zappaisgod said:
art said:
I don't mind so much that people are spending my money for social issues, it is the national security that pisses me off.


Well, that seems a little odd since the one, national security, is clearly mandated in the Constitution and the other is most definitely not. Perhaps you live in the wrong country. The guess here is that you pay a relatively paltry sum in taxes and receive far more benefits than your contribution would otherwise produce if you had to pay for them on the open market. Hence your love of "social" programs. I believe this to be true of almost all who espouse spending on social programs. Plain greed.


zappas' position raises two questions ..

1) are inflated healthcare costs in the US really the result of supply and demand as zappa claims.. or simply the result of (well-known and documented) rampant cronyism?...


Health care costs are seemingly high for a variety of reasons.

1. Ludicrous torts and malpractice claims.
2. The existence of an insurance bureaucracy at all, which will only increase once the gummint gets into it. Every single insurance company employee is a non-productive drain on health dollars. They do not contribute one iota to actual care.
3. Number 2 above is compounded tremendously by the insurance liaisons in every doctor's office who have to make sure every form is filled out perfectly. More non-productive bureaucrats.
4. Unrealistic patient demands. Everybody seems to think they are entitled to the top specialist in the world. On their plan. Which they bitch about the cost of and which chisels doctors.
5. Morons who go to the doctor and demand antibiotics for colds. Suck it up, pansies, you don't go to the doctor for every sniffle and you don't need medicine for it either. Fucking pussies.
6. Related to 1 & 4 is the enormous explosion of incredibly expensive machinery and R & D costs. We already have all the easy stuff. Everything else is just going to cost more and more to develop and implement. It's related to #1 in that doctors get sued if they don't use these incredibly expensive tests every time and something comes up that could have been caught if they did, even if the likelihood of the test's utility was minimal.
7. The single greatest factor pushing the cost of healthcare up, aside from general stupidity and selfishness, is that the consumer does not directly pay for the service.

I'll speak for myself, sweetheart. In the future if you have a question just ask. Don't even try to read my mind, it's a good bit beyond the "See Spot Conspire To Fuck Hippies and Poor People" stuff you're used to.



Also, what drives up the price of many policies is that certain states have laws that require insurance companies to cover bullshit treatments like acupuncture and chiropractics, or exorbitant treatments like massages. if you have a tight neck, just go to your doc and get a script for a massage - a free day at the spa, hooray!

these laws seem to always be pushed by these "provider" groups who lobby the politicians to be included.


--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: MrBump]
    #7917195 -

Cubies take on health care.

Abolish war on drugs.

Use the money to provide free coast to coast healthcare...thankyou goodnight


--------------------

Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Cubie]
    #7917985 -

Cubie said:
Cubies take on health care.

Abolish war on drugs.

Use the money to provide free coast to coast healthcare...thankyou goodnight


DING DING DING!!!!

we have a winner.

no matter how you slice it this country could easily provide health care to every citizen if we just stopped blowing our wad on worthless wars against drugs and invading non threatening countries, and maintaining dozens of major military bases in foreign land.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7918483 -

zappaisgod said:
Health care costs are seemingly high for a variety of reasons.

1. Ludicrous torts and malpractice claims.

7. The single greatest factor pushing the cost of healthcare up, aside from general stupidity and selfishness, is that the consumer does not directly pay for the service.




I like your points, 1 & 7. But I'd like to add to it. I believe in fairness and equality, even if it can never be achieved in should always be strived for. So when it comes to medical care and cost, each person should pay according to the medical services rendered. The problem with the insurance and medical industry is that the healthcare providers are recouping their costs from services rendered but not paid by those who received such service by placing those costs on to those who can. I can't really blame them, for instance those hospitals that have to take in and treat homeless people, if they can past those costs in the form as higher prices to those with the ability to pay, then the hospital would have to eat it. To be fair, if you can't pay you get no service. Just like if you can't pay you don't get a car. The insured, should not have to pay for the non-insured.

We need better accounting. I can't see why a purely for profit capitalist medical care cannot be provided. Just like with education you have private schools. But the problem is that the people are already being forced to pay taxes for govt. funded services. This makes the system suck. Capitalist for profit creates better service. This is why public schools suck and also when medical care operates on private and public funds. Don't mix the two.

You would be surprised, that if govt. did not fund these programs to supposedly help those who can't afford, private citizens would step up and contribute on their own free will to fund non-profit organizations. If this were the case maybe the Gates Foundation would actually make American issues more of priority. But why should they when govt. already throws big money at it. The problem is govt's are poor asset allocators and don't know how to get the best service for every dollar spent. A capitalist knows how.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #7918704 -

one point that was missed about socialized medicine is something has already been grossly abused: psychiatric medicine.
every single state medical program that has failed (read: bankrupt) has been entirely due to the outrageous cost of the pills and the overprescription of those pills.

just do some research on zyprexa... it is almost solely responsible for failed state medicare.

with the freedom to live your life the way you want, you have to take responsibility for its actions. If you smoke, dont exercise, eat McDonalds 5 times a week... then dont become outraged when you cant get proper diabetes treatment.
"I blew all my money on fucking up my liver, and Now the government wont buy me a new one! im dying here!".

I am a huge proponent of socialized programs, like public transportation, libraries, public schools.... but Americans abuse or neglect these things so they ultimately dont work... then we see more logical, healthy countries having near-flawless operation of socialized programs and we start pointing the finger at everyone but ourselves.
dont sit on the couch yelling at the tv when a soft story comes on about some extremely needy child needs a heart transplant because its mother was a crackhead... it is you people that have fucked that up, not the corporations. through the collective greed you have chipped away at that childs chance of getting that heart.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7918907 -

zappaisgod said:
Minstrel said:
One thing is for sure, and that is that Zzzap always likes to claim that young people are less deserving of the benevolence the government dishes because they go to school and live with their parents, and are in effect, tax leaches. Zzzap is more entitled for his opinions, because he's spent the last 80% of his life as a slave to the system, and conditioned to think that everything is ok.


Young people are neither less nor more deserving of what they cannot pay for than anybody else. They are not special. My slavery has rewarded me very well. You can only dream that you will someday be rewarded half as well. Not likely, though, since you seem to be more concerned with panhandling than actually working to get what you want.


For those against Universal Health care like you, zappa, which idea bothers you the most (serious question)?

a) The money issue (taxes going up to pay for a bunch of welfare queens)

or

b) The beaurocracy (the theory that healthcare quality will go down and people will have to qait forever for critical operations)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7919065 -

:lol:

I like that numbers 4-6 of your 7 points basically could all be summed up by one point: people seeking health care.

You think just like a health insurance company. Take the money from people, but don't provide any service so you can turn a profit.

Zappa, I am not exaggerating when I say that every time you go on one of these anti-socialized medicine tirades, you prove to me more than Hillary and all the socialized western countries combined that for-profit health care is a broken system. That and the $1000 per month cost of insulin that I need to survive vs. the zero dollars per month that my cousins north of the border spend on insulin, blood sugar monitors and doctor's visits.

And you're telling me I should be happy to work hard to hand over $15K/yer to pharmacuetical companies? Stay away from life coaching, bub.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7919134 -

Why should I pay for your insulin?





Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Phred]
    #7919187 -

Phred said:
Why should I pay for your insulin?



In theory you shouldn't have to. The funny thing is that if you are a US taxpayer you already are. Billions of dollars a year are wasted in hospitals that provide emergency service to diabetics (and other people with chronic conditions) who can't afford insulin over the counter. It is a vicious cycle. Wouldn't you rather have your penny go towards my insulin as oppossed to your dollar go towards my ambulance ride? Preventative care is cheaper for you and healthier for me.

I understand that in theory you don't see any justification for paying for socialized medicine. In practice, however, it is better for all.

You have asked me this exact question before and I have given you a similar answer. I don't really see much of a point of getting into this again. The only reason I brought it up was to let zappa know that, not only has he or anyone else not been able to bring up a convincing argument that for-profit health is a preferrable system, it is quite the opposite. Every attempt to justify the system to anyone with experience being sick only makes it more and more clear that we have to throw the entire for profit system in the incinerator. ITS DEADER THAN MOSES.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Phred]
    #7919195 -

Phred said:
Why should I pay for your insulin?



Cause you're kind, and not autistic like those other assholes? :smile:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Arp]
    #7919210 -

Why should i pay for a military to protect this country?

i would love nothing more than to see phred and zappa die in a terrorist attack. ever see that beheading video? yeah that way would do just nicely. seriously though if you think paying billions for military operations in other countries to protect the lives and well being of american citizens why is it such a hard leap for you guys to pay for health care to protect the lives and well being of american citizens?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7919217 -

We should have our missle defense system only protect red states

:wink:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: BrAiN]
    #7919222 -

What's up with the shift? Red is the color of the left, and blue of the right. Think I read somewhere that the republicans used to use the blue color and the democrats the red, but somehow it changed?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: zappa on healthcare .."open market" or "crony capitalism"?... [Re: Arp]
    #7919225 -

Interesting eh? Must have been the democrats who did the color coding :wink:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Capitalism and "incentive"
( 1 2 all )		 vampirism 1,667 23 01/16/05 06:12 PM
by Anonymous
* Capitalism=Theft
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )		 silversoul7 11,000 153 11/10/05 01:04 AM
by Microcosmatrix
* Free market harms the poor
( 1 2 all )		 Xlea321 2,572 23 05/21/03 09:15 PM
by iglou
* Corporations are not capitalism Evolving 880 4 10/11/04 11:56 PM
by Worf
* Is capitalism working? Xlea321 545 4 07/09/03 03:00 PM
by Anonymous
* The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 ThorA 6,027 101 01/28/03 08:14 PM
by Phred
* Is worldwide Capitalism impossible?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )		 Phred 6,406 80 07/15/03 04:18 AM
by hongomon
* capitalism
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )		 BrAiN 17,010 149 02/24/05 11:50 AM
by newuser1492

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,194 topic views. 2 members, 49 guests and 17 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 16 queries.