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InvisibleThorA
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The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World
    #1243490 - 01/23/03 04:49 PM (14 years, 8 hours ago)



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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1243549 - 01/23/03 05:07 PM (14 years, 7 hours ago)

The nails head has been hit.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1243639 - 01/23/03 05:37 PM (14 years, 7 hours ago)



I think everybody feels that way about their country.



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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1243789 - 01/23/03 06:25 PM (14 years, 6 hours ago)

Great essay. A less empty example of rhetoric than this one , in my opinion.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1243828 - 01/23/03 06:43 PM (14 years, 6 hours ago)

I've always been a fan of Eno's music. His political astuteness is another question entirely. Here's what sprang to mind as I read his comments:

And how is it that the world's beacon of democracy can have elections dominated by wealthy special interest groups?

The poorest American voter's vote counts as much as that of the richest -- that's how Democracy works. Since there are a lot more voters who are either making minimum wage, on welfare, or unemployed than there are millionaires, the votes of "the poor" are a much larger determining factor in an election.

Surely this isn't the America that anyone dreamed of...

Correct. The disintegration of the America that used to exist was started with the New Deal, and accelerated with every election as more and more voters decided it was a good idea to vote for whichever stuffed suit promised them the most goodies.

But, unfortunately, over the same period, the mass media vaulted backward, thriving on increasingly simple stories and trivializing news into something indistinguishable from entertainment. As a result, a wealth of original and subtle thought ? America's real wealth ? is squandered.

So no American thinks subtly or originally anymore because of bad television news programs and bad newspapers? Uh-huh.

Well, we like some of it but could do without the rest: among the highest rates of violent crime...

Not higher than England post-1997. As a matter of fact the violent crime rate in America has dropped almost every year for almost 40 years.

...economic inequality...

The inequality that allows people to earn personal fortunes of tens of billions of dollars by providing products and services that people choose to buy, then allows them to keep more than 30% of what they earn. There's less inequality in Europe because the governments have no compunction about seizing the majority of what people earn.

Europeans think it's important ? civilized, in fact ? to help people who fall through society's cracks.

Then why do Americans as individuals have much higher per capita rates of VOLUNTARY donations to charities than Europeans, and America as a country the highest amount of foreign aid?

This isn't just altruism, but an understanding that having too many losers in society hurts everyone. It's better for everybody to have a stake in society than to have a resentful underclass bent on wrecking things.

So Europeans aren't more compassionate than Americans, they just think it shrewd to bribe the "underclass" to behave themselves.

To many Americans, this sounds like socialism, big government, the nanny state.

It doesn't just SOUND like it. It IS.

But so what?

If you ask "So what?" then don't be surprised that America is no longer "the America that anyone dreamed of", because the America of today is heading in the same direction that Europe has already travelled. American government is not QUITE as big a nanny state as England or Germany or Italy, but it's not that far behind.

But isn't civilization what happens when people stop behaving as if they're trapped in a ruthless Darwinian struggle and start thinking about communities and shared futures?

Civilization is what happens when people stop behaving as if they are trapped by circumstances and are allowed the freedom to better themselves without interference.

America as a gated community won't work, because not even the world's sole superpower can build walls high enough to shield itself from the intertwined realities of the 21st century.

No walls are required. All that is required is for America to mind its own business. Of course, that means ignoring calls for help from those unable to help themselves.

There's a better form of security: reconnect with the rest of the world, don't shut it out; stop making enemies and start making friends.

I thought the reason Europeans hated America was because they DON'T mind their own business. How can Americans "make friends" with those European nations who don't currently consider themselves friendly? Let me guess -- give them money without questioning how it will be used, right?

pinky


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1244085 - 01/23/03 08:20 PM (14 years, 4 hours ago)

I also enjoy his music  :grin:


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1244280 - 01/23/03 09:50 PM (14 years, 3 hours ago)

Pinky:
The poorest American voter's vote counts as much as that of the richest -- that's how Democracy works. Since there are a lot more voters who are either making minimum wage, on welfare, or unemployed than there are millionaires, the votes of "the poor" are a much larger determining factor in an election.

Thank you for sharing the theory of how Democracy should work. (Be prepared for Luv to come in an chastise you for your word usage...) Eno wasn't, however, refering to a single day--election day, as though it existed in a vacuum--rather he's looking at "elections" more comprehensively. You didn't pick up on that? Or do you really not think elections--the selection process, campain financing, etc.--are dominated by wealthy special interest groups? I'd bet a dollar you're pro campaign finance reform.

Pinky:
The disintegration of the America that used to exist was started with the New Deal, and accelerated with every election as more and more voters decided it was a good idea to vote for whichever stuffed suit promised them the most goodies.

That may be true and I'm open to consider it. What kind of goodies are you talking about? Education? Financial incentives to have more babies? A car in every garage? In other words, there are goodies and then there are goodies. What kind of demands did voters make in the America that used to exist?

Eno:
But, unfortunately, over the same period, the mass media vaulted backward, thriving on increasingly simple stories and trivializing news into something indistinguishable from entertainment. As a result, a wealth of original and subtle thought ? America's real wealth ? is squandered.

Pinky:
So no American thinks subtly or originally anymore because of bad television news programs and bad newspapers? Uh-huh.

Everyone here knows by now that you're certain that years of viewing television programming and advertising have no effect on an individual's development, value system, or, in short, ability to exercise free will. Well I do. I totally, absolutely fucking think it does. I am currently working on a device that will un-invent the television.

Eno is not, however, going so far as to say that " No American thinks subtly...", and nor are most media critics who hold similar feelings. Shame on you for using such a blatant absolute. He said that "a wealth" of that type of thought is squandered. And I completely agree. Do you think that a person can watch 3, 4, 5 hours of TV daily and not be influenced by what they're watching?

Eno:
America as a gated community won't work, because not even the world's sole superpower can build walls high enough to shield itself from the intertwined realities of the 21st century.

Pinky:
No walls are required. All that is required is for America to mind its own business. Of course, that means ignoring calls for help from those unable to help themselves.

That's ALL? Another sloppy absolute. It also requires America to HAVE MINDED its own business for the past two centuries of foreign entanglement. A lot of the shit going on in the world that the U.S. is able to help do something about was also caused, in some part or another, by U.S. foreign meddling.

It also requires a whole slew of other equally impossible demands, not all of which have anything to do directly with the United States, present or past. In other words, it can't be done. I thought "the intertwined realities of the 21st Century" was a nice term.

hongomon


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Anonymous

Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1244323 - 01/23/03 10:16 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

My thoughts?  Are you sure you want to hear my thoughts?

My first thought is what's up with you and Anno these days?  He's all down on guns and creating threads in OTD about it?!?!? :confused:

Now you're in here creating this thread?!?!?  :confused:

You guys down on wacky America, or what?

Fact is most of us that post here are from America.  I think people that are not need to get used to that idea.  Maybe, and I'm just spittballing here, there is a good reason why most of us are Americans.  Think about that.

What do I think of Eno's article?

It's pretty much what I'd expect from a European musician.  Or any musician for that matter.  I think I'd rather get political commentary from someone who knows something about politics, which obviously he doesn't.  And if I wanted an opinion from a musician I think I'd like to hear from Michael Jackson on this, or perhaps Elvis (you remember The King, right?).  Both of them are strangely quiet these days,  What's up with that?

Pretty much I agree with Pinky here.  In fact, I am glad he is here to represent me.  It saves me the trouble of posting my thoughts.  It is so much easier to read his and nod. :wink: :laugh:
 


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: ]
    #1244339 - 01/23/03 10:27 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

Let me ask you this, do you get offended if people criticize Bush?

I don't hate America, I don't hate anything really.. I am concerned about America and have concerns about many things the US is doing.

Should people not express their opinions of this?

I have no idea what Anno is doing, don't assume we agree on gun issues, we probably don't.

What specifically in that article upsets you?

Don't assume because I feel America does many things wrong in my opinion that I hate Americans or something that extreme.

Don't take it so personally, its the government that I have my biggest issues with because ultimately they have led America down a path that I think is pretty bad.

I just wish we could look past the reactionary attitude of "how dare they insult us" when its just criticisms of how America is today...

Is America perfect? Is it wrong to say that America is doing some things wrong?

That article is very indicitive of how people outside America feel, so should the US just get mad and ignore those feelings or should we try to deal with the issues that are leading America down a path that harms their place in this world.

I think its pride in ones country that hurts people the most when people criticise their country, I certainly have a hard time dealing with people saying bad things about Iceland, but I understand Iceland has problems and criticisms are part of any country in this world.


Edited by Thor (01/23/03 10:29 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: hongomon]
    #1244352 - 01/23/03 10:32 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

hongomon writes:

Or do you really not think elections--the selection process, campain financing, etc.--are dominated by wealthy special interest groups?

Do YOU vote for the candidate who spend the most money? Didn't think so. What makes you think others do?

What kind of demands did voters make in the America that used to exist?

That the representatives do the job they were elected to do -- uphold the Constitution of the United States.

Everyone here knows by now that you're certain that years of viewing television programming and advertising have no effect on an individual's development, value system, or, in short, ability to exercise free will. Well I do.

Then sell your tv.

He said that "a wealth" of that type of thought is squandered. And I completely agree.

How is it squandered? Does he mean that that type of thought still exists, but it is not disseminated by the American media to the same extent that it would be by European media? Newsflash -- most subtle and original thought is disseminated through other means than tv, and always has been. Books, pamphlets, lectures, websites and special interest organizations still exist, you know.

Do you think that a person can watch 3, 4, 5 hours of TV daily and not be influenced by what they're watching?

Yes.

It also requires America to HAVE MINDED its own business for the past two centuries of foreign entanglement.

So you are claiming it is too late for America to mind its own business? What's done is done? Just because, for example, America once attacked Iraq it must continue to do so? Just because America has donated far more aid to far more countries than any other nation in history it must continue to do so? Just because America has provided military aid and financial aid to its allies and supplied men and materiel to UN peacekeeping missions in the past it must continue to do so till the end of time?

If that's the kind of determinism you believe in, then how can you criticize ANYTHING America does today? By your theory the fact that they may honestly come to see the error of their ways and wish to repent means squat -- they are damned forever because the people in charge of the country in the past have sealed their fate forever.

A lot of the shit going on in the world that the U.S. is able to help do something about was also caused, in some part or another, by U.S. foreign meddling.

So what do you propose America do to fix the shit going on in Viet Nam? Give them money? How about Chile? Give them money? Give back Hawaii to the English? Give back Louisianna to the French?

If everything the US does in the world causes shit, just exactly what is wrong with simply minding their own business from now on? If Hussein decides he wants to expand his borders at some point down the road, let somebody else deal with it. If some African nation is crying for money to develop infrastructure, let France give it to them so the French can take the flak when the government embezzles those funds and uses them to murder tribes it dislikes. If some developing nation is desperate for foreign investment, let some Portuguese corporation set up a factory there so America can no longer be accused of brainwashing the populace of its neighbors with insipid American culture and shoddy overpriced American running shoes.

pinky


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: ]
    #1244357 - 01/23/03 10:34 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

Also, one more question would the article have bothered you as much if it was an American who wrote it about his own country?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1244364 - 01/23/03 10:45 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

"The poorest American voter's vote counts as much as that of the richest -- that's how Democracy works. Since there are a lot more voters who are either making minimum wage, on welfare, or unemployed than there are millionaires, the votes of "the poor" are a much larger determining factor in an election."

I think Eno may have been referring more to policy making than counting votes Pinky.

"So no American thinks subtly or originally anymore because of bad television news programs and bad newspapers? Uh-huh."

He said it is being squandered because it doesnt make it into the mass media, he didnt say it doesnt exist anymore.

"Not higher than England post-1997. As a matter of fact the violent crime rate in America has dropped almost every year for almost 40 years."

You know the homicide rate is much higher in the U.S pinky. or is that not violent crime?

"The inequality that allows people to earn personal fortunes of tens of billions of dollars by providing products and services that people choose to buy, then allows them to keep more than 30% of what they earn. There's less inequality in Europe because the governments have no compunction about seizing the majority of what people earn"

He is talking about all those people who live in poverty in your country. That is ecenomic inequality.

"Then why do Americans as individuals have much higher per capita rates of VOLUNTARY donations to charities than Europeans, and America as a country the highest amount of foreign aid?"

Statistics damn statistics.Just ignore all the scum below the breadline, perhaps they will go away and die or something. You are the richest country in the world and the worst exploiter of poor countries. You arent giving enough foreign aid.

"No walls are required. All that is required is for America to mind its own business. Of course, that means ignoring calls for help from those unable to help themselves."

Whoose calling for help pinky? I think your imagining it.

"I thought the reason Europeans hated America was because they DON'T mind their own business. How can Americans "make friends" with those European nations who don't currently consider themselves friendly? Let me guess -- give them money without questioning how it will be used, right?"

Money, money, money. Quite sad really. I can almost see the dollar signs flashing in your eyes. Its like an addiction, it takes away your humanity and its just an illusion anyway.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1244366 - 01/23/03 10:48 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

Thor writes:

... its the government that I have my biggest issues with because ultimately they have led America down a path that I think is pretty bad.

I have a hard time with generalities. Specifically WHAT path has America been led down and specifically HOW is it pretty bad?

That article is very indicitive of how people outside America feel...

Incorrect. It is indicative of how Eno feels. Mr Mushrooms posted an article from an English writer a few days ago that expressed pretty much the opposite viewpoint. I am not an American and I certainly don't feel the way Eno feels.

... so should the US just get mad and ignore those feelings...

Why shouldn't they ignore those feelings? Why should an average American give a damn that Eno has a hard time finding subtle or original thought when he watches Friends or King of the Hill? Is there not enough subtle or original thought available to him through the European media? He's the one who blusters "So what" when his feelings are hurt that Americans consider (accurately) European governments to be Socialist nanny states.

...or should we try to deal with the issues that are leading America down a path that harms their place in this world.

Harms "their place in the world" how, specifically? What do Europeans consider America's "place in the world" to be, anyway? What do Europeans think Americans place in the world SHOULD be?

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1244368 - 01/23/03 10:49 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

I'll have to get back to you on this, Boss.

It is very late and I am very drained.  I will tell you what I think and what most Americans think.  I promise it will be VERY educational. :smile:

For now, I am, your servant.....


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: ]
    #1244369 - 01/23/03 10:49 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

with all this flag waving your arm must be getting tired! :grin: 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1244377 - 01/23/03 10:54 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

"Do YOU vote for the candidate who spend the most money? Didn't think so. What makes you think others do?"

Most of the really big corporare political sponsors give money to both parties.

"How is it squandered? Does he mean that that type of thought still exists, but it is not disseminated by the American media to the same extent that it would be by European media? Newsflash -- most subtle and original thought is disseminated through other means than tv, and always has been. Books, pamphlets, lectures, websites and special interest organizations still exist, you know."

Everyone knows British TV is the best in the world ( im such a stirrer but it is true!)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: ]
    #1244382 - 01/23/03 10:55 PM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

I will tell you what I think and what most Americans think.




unbelievable - Shakes head and prays this statement was said in jest.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: GazzBut]
    #1244414 - 01/23/03 11:12 PM (14 years, 1 hour ago)

GazzBut writes:

I think Eno may have been referring more to policy making than counting votes Pinky.

Then he should have said so, rather than saying "the world's beacon of democracy can have elections dominated by wealthy special interest groups," shouldn't he? Are elections not about counting votes? Do Democracies not elect their representatives through a process of counting votes?

You know the homicide rate is much higher in the U.S pinky. or is that not violent crime?

Yes, I am aware of that. However, Eno's comment was not restricted to a subset of the category "violent crime", it was about the entire category.

He is talking about all those people who live in poverty in your country. That is ecenomic inequality.

First of all, it's not my country. Secondly, if he wanted to talk ONLY about the poor, why didn't he talk about the poor rather than "economic inequality"? Inequality by definition assumes both mega-rich and mega-poor. There's a lot less inequailty in China than America, for example, but only because there almost EVERYBODY is poor. There is a lot less economic equality between the wealthiest 10% of Portuguese and the poorest 10% of Portuguese not because the poorest Portuguese are less poor than the poorest Americans, but because the richest Portuguese are less rich than the richest Americans.

Statistics damn statistics. Just ignore all the scum below the breadline, perhaps they will go away and die or something.

Those statistics show that Americans DON'T ignore those below the breadline.

You are the richest country in the world and the worst exploiter of poor countries.

Again, I am not American. Specifically HOW does America exploit poor countries?

You arent giving enough foreign aid.

More than anyone else isn't enough?

Whoose calling for help pinky? I think your imagining it.

England. South Korea. Kuwait. Saudi Arabia. The UN (Kosovo, Somalia, etc).

Money, money, money. Quite sad really. I can almost see the dollar signs flashing in your eyes.

If money, money, money is such a trivial thing, why don't Europeans donate more to charities and foreign aid? It's only money, after all.

Its like an addiction, it takes away your humanity and its just an illusion anyway.

If it is both addictive and illusory (nice contradiction, by the way) why would you want it given to anyone?

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/23/03 11:14 PM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1244430 - 01/23/03 11:22 PM (14 years, 1 hour ago)

all i want to say is addiction is an illusion pinky.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1244433 - 01/23/03 11:26 PM (14 years, 1 hour ago)

Thanks pinky Nicely done.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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